What does the perfect F600 class need?

[Marshall Mauney]

Ted, so you're saying that a 100hp CVT 2 stroke would be at a disadvantage to a 50hp gearbox motor?

I'm on your side with this, but I think that statements like this actually make things worse. I don't think that anyone honestly is looking at using a 50-horse bike motor, so can we keep the exaggerations to a minimum?

[Stan Clayton]

The F600 records are slower at every track when compared to the F500 records. This is a fact of life but still not good enough for the SCCA.

I'm not 'white knighting' SCCA here, Jay, but I think it's fairer to say that your data were not good enough for your fellow F500 competitors. The Advisory Committee and (AFAIK) the CRB supported the request to add the 600cc m/c engine to F500, but your fellow national F500 competitors hammered the BoD at the Runoffs.

[Jnovak]

I'm not 'white knighting' SCCA here, Jay, but I think it's fairer to say that your data were not good enough for your fellow F500 competitors. The Advisory Committee and (AFAIK) the CRB supported the request to add the 600cc m/c engine to F500, but your fellow national F500 competitors hammered the BoD at the Runoffs.

Actually Stan, well before the Runoffs the CRB recommended (voted) that F600 become a new regional class in 2012. With NO COMMENT about any intent to merge F600 with F500 at all. In fact after the meeting at the Runoffs I asked 3 members of the CRB about this specific issue and was simply told that we had to make numbers to get to National status.

Here is the link to that Fastrack.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...strack-oct.pdf

here is the actual text copied from the October Fastrack dated September 6th 2011. This was several weeks before the Runoffs.

F500
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]1. (Multiple) Allow 600cc Motorcycle Engines to compete in F500[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]The CRB thanks the many members who submitted input on this item. The CRB supports the concept of a class for a small formula car with a 600cc motorcycle engine, but not as a part of the existing F500 class. The CRB will recommend adoption of an F600 class based on F500 chassis construction rules using 600cc motorcycle engines. Initially, this would [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]be a Regional only class that could become a National class by meeting the requirements of 9.1.13.C. The recommended [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]rules will be those submitted in letter #5202 with 32mm individual intake port restrictors.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

It is very clear that the above statement left us CLEARLY on our own to make National stutus as a seperate class. In the MANY MANY discussions with members of the CRB we told them that we would accept any weight and IIR restrictor combination but that did not matter.

Also remember that the letters of support for the ORIGINAL proposal was over 3.3 to 1 in favor of allowing the F600s into F500. Of the 30 letters that were against the proposal only 14 were from F500 competitors. There were also 12 letters from F500 competitors in support of the proposal. Seems pretty even from the F500 end of things to me, the guys at the Runoffs were simply very vocal.

[Stan Clayton]

Looks like I was off somewhat on what I thought was the timing, but again...it was a cadre of your nat'l competitors who didn't want this, and they got the ear of the powers that be.

That's what I get for missing the Runoffs for the first time in a decade!

In any case, I understand that the wheelbase question is the last item to be resolved before moving forward, so let's hope for an early resolution to the question.

[Jnovak]

Looks like I was off somewhat on what I thought was the timing, but again...it was a cadre of your nat'l competitors who didn't want this, and they got the ear of the powers that be.

That's what I get for missing the Runoffs for the first time in a decade!

In any case, I understand that the wheelbase question is the last item to be resolved before moving forward, so let's hope for an early resolution to the question.

I know that you are correct in that someone had the ear of the CRB.

I certainly hope this works out Stan.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[jim murphy]

How much to build a f600 with the current f500 chassis with one of those newer looking bodies? How big of a driver can fit in the current cars?

Mark

Mark.
I can answer this question as I bought the last Kenny Price built Scorpion w/sports car nose, modified for F600 and cockpit widened for a big driver (about 6'3", 230+). The MC modified roller was $17K and the rest of it will end up making the car ready to race at around $23K depending on what options you add to the car. If we ever get time from converting cars to F600's we will finish this car soon and it will be ready for rental (along with a F6/Mk.5 and a F6/Mk.8) this season. The McMahans have regular day jobs so it will take awhile. We have ex-Jeff Blumenthal's Mk.8 waiting in the shop for conversion. Tom Manalio should be driving his newly converted F600 the beginning of this season.

Jim

[ny_racer_xxx]

I'm on your side with this, but I think that statements like this actually make things worse. I don't think that anyone honestly is looking at using a 50-horse bike motor, so can we keep the exaggerations to a minimum?

Put the whole quote in there Marshal, I was making a point and Jay already shot down his claim with REAL data.

CR

[Wren]

but your fellow national F500 competitors hammered the BoD at the Runoffs.

I don't think the BOD had any involvement in this decision. The CRB did not even send the proposal up to the BOD for a vote. As pointed out, it was also done before the runoffs.

[mmi16]

I don't think the BOD had any involvement in this decision. The CRB did not even send the proposal up to the BOD for a vote. As pointed out, it was also done before the runoffs.

My understanding, with some insight into the process and the participants, this was a TOTAL BOD decision opposite of the CRB recommendations.

BOD & CRB have been at odds on a number of issues.

BOD doesn't seem to know if it has been stroked, bored, turbo-charged, supercharged or naturally aspirated....they are still looking for Hogan's goat!

[Bill Bonow]

OK,

Had to look up "Hogan's Goat"......

For those who need some definition:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...gan%27s%20goat

[Wren]

My understanding, with some insight into the process and the participants, this was a TOTAL BOD decision opposite of the CRB recommendations.

BOD & CRB have been at odds on a number of issues.

BOD doesn't seem to know if it has been stroked, bored, turbo-charged, supercharged or naturally aspirated....they are still looking for Hogan's goat!

We may be saying the same thing or we may not be. The BOD did not kill the idea of 600cc bike motors in F500.

In the October fastrack the CRB declined to send the proposal for 600cc bike motors in F500 to the BOD. Instead they recommended that F600 be given it's own regional class. The BOD never got to vote on whether or not 600cc bike motors should be included in F500.

In their last meeting the BOD declined to accept the proposed rules for F600. Their stated reason was that the proposed rule set was too different from F500 due to chassis dimensions, shocks, puck size, etc. They sent the rules back to the F600 guys to come up with something as close to F500 as possible so that the two classes could be combined asap. I know that upset some people, but it makes sense to me looking in from the outside.

[ny_racer_xxx]

In their last meeting the BOD declined to accept the proposed rules for F600. Their stated reason was that the proposed rule set was too different from F500 due to chassis dimensions, shocks, puck size, etc. They sent the rules back to the F600 guys to come up with something as close to F500 as possible so that the two classes could be combined asap. I know that upset some people, but it makes sense to me looking in from the outside.

And how does that make any sense? We're beating a dead horse here guys...

Let's put together a petition, have everybody in favor put a name to it and send it in, otherwise look for another org to support the class. This is total BS to be analyzing how the SCCA ran everybody in circles ON PURPOSE, to let the proposal die from lack of interest.

CR

[Wren]

And how does that make any sense? We're beating a dead horse here guys...

F600 with all of the different things that were being proposed (shocks, etc.) was going to be different enough from F500 that it would have been hard to judge equality between F600 and F500 and rolling them together into one class would have been difficult. The board has asked for a proposal that can be fairly judged against F500 so that the F6 guys will get a national class to participate in so that they can grow. The BOD is preventing the class from languishing forever at the regional level. F600 was not going to make the numbers on its own to make national status.

The BOD knows that the members wanted 600cc bike motors in F5. They are trying to make that happen.

How does it not makes sense?

[ny_racer_xxx]

F600 with all of the different things that were being proposed (shocks, etc.) was going to be different enough from F500 that it would have been hard to judge equality between F600 and F500 and rolling them together into one class would have been difficult. The board has asked for a proposal that can be fairly judged against F500 so that the F6 guys will get a national class to participate in so that they can grow. The BOD is preventing the class from languishing forever at the regional level. F600 was not going to make the numbers on its own to make national status.

The BOD knows that the members wanted 600cc bike motors in F5. They are trying to make that happen.

How does it not makes sense?

You left out the part of the 2 years prior where the MC committee had tried to create a alternative engine for the class with NO other changes. The committee did EVERYTHING the SCCA asked to create parity with the 500's, and even made it so the cars would slower than the 500's as per the SCCA request. When it was time to approve or disapproved the motors, they said they wanted it to be their own class. That's when all the shocks and bells and whistle where introduced.

This autopsy is really pointless the SCCA dropped the ball on this plain and simple...

CR

[Wren]

You can blame the CRB for that, not the BOD.

[ny_racer_xxx]

You can blame the CRB for that, not the BOD.

And that's where the disconnect is. BOD CRB ABC whatever, it's all SCCA and they screwed up!

There must be a higher level to take this with a petition, otherwise it's going to be the same old, same old. What's really happening is a couple of old farts behind the scenes cock blocking this proposal, and this will bounce back and forth, and the CRB will blame the BOD, and the BOD will drop the ball, yadda, yadda, yadda....

CR

[Mark Filip]

And that's where the disconnect is. BOD CRB ABC whatever, it's all SCCA and they screwed up!

There must be a higher level to take this with a petition, otherwise it's going to be the same old, same old. What's really happening is a couple of old farts behind the scenes cock blocking this proposal, and this will bounce back and forth, and the CRB will blame the BOD, and the BOD will drop the ball, yadda, yadda, yadda....

CR

Cock blockers suck

[Slyp Dawg]

this might not exactly be in-line with the main theme of Apexspeed as a whole, but if the notion of F600 being a feeder series is important to it's success, and sports car noses are becoming popular (and making the cars look pretty good at the same time), why keep F600 as an open wheel class? add maybe 10lbs worth of fiberglass (if that much, if you lay it up 4-5 layers thick) over the wheels, add a gurney flap on the trailing edge of the rear bodywork/engine cover, and even if you change NOTHING else about a F500, other than what is required to convert it to MC power, you've got a pretty neat little sports racer.

Take a look at what DSR was, before the long wheelbase, baby-LMP cars became popular (early '00s is about when the trend shifted to converted FC/FB/FA cars), and you'll see a bunch of cars that look more or less like F600s, with 13" wheels, and '70s sports prototype/can-am esque bodies. The cars were fairly simple (well, compared to the current crop of DSRs, anyway), and a few of them were even, you guessed it, converted F500 cars. If it costs around $20-25K to start with a F500 and a bike engine, and end up with a F600, extending the sports car noses to cover the tops of the front tires, and extending the rear bodywork over the rear tires, and bolting a piece of angle aluminum to the trailing edge can't add that much to the cost, can it?

Following the "move away from F500-legal cars with MC engines" school of thought, here is what I propose:
- change name of the class from "F600" to "FSR", and either allow it to run with F500/F600/FV, or DSR/CSR, at the discression of the race director, based upon participation in each class at that race and lap time differences between FSR and the rest of the cars in it's run group
- keep current F600 sizes, mandate MAXIMUM wheelbase of 90" and allow cars to be 2-3" wider overall (it seems to work fairly well and that way, the cars don't get so big they dwarf existing F500s and so heavy that 13" wheels become a necessity just to keep tires under them)
- steel spaceframe chassis ONLY, no monocoque construction, no composite chassis
- mandated flat floor (no tunnels or diffusers allowed)
- no wings
- gurney flaps are allowed, but must be 1" tall or shorter
- keep the 10" wheels
- no restrictions on shocks (including elastomer suspension), but mandate that the combination of one damper and one spring must not cost more than $750. this allows the use of mountain bike shocks, both coil AND air sprung, but also frees up the dimensional restrictions on elastomer pucks for those who want to use elastomer suspensions
- solid axle rear (no IRS or differentials)
- tires must be completely covered by the fenders, as viewed from above (does not prohibit louvering the fenders, however)
- mechanical linkage required between the shifter and the transmission, do not allow pneumatic/solenoid-operated shifters
- clutch must be driver-controled, via a hydraulic or mechanical linkage, and must be hand or foot operated
- maximum displacement of 680cc, engine must remain unmodified and must retain factory airbox (allows Triumph 675cc 3-cylinders to compete, so basically any engine that can compete in AMA 600cc competition can compete in FSR/F600)
- must retain stock ECU, tuning and ECU firmware is unrestricted (face it, it's going to happen and will be nearly impossible to police, why fight it? if it leads to no-lift-shift, so be it)

to me, this seems like a very viable solution, as it doesn't require barely any extra modification over a standard F500-to-F600 conversion, but takes the class in a different direction away from F500, but still similar enough to allow old F500 cars to be reasonably competitive, allows the cottage-industry racer/fabricator a crack at cost-effective sports car racing, and it gives racers who want to drive a sports racer a cost effective, non-spec class to run in and be competitive

[Jnovak]

The BoD has approved F600. See this link.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51184

Thanks ... Jay Novak