Better brakes

[Gary Slahor]

Better brakes are on my list of winter upgrades to my VD Novak conversion, and I'm trying to benifit from others experience.

I've investigated the AP and Alcon aluminum upgrades to the LD20, but as I plan to replace the uprights, I now have the option to go to a radial mount caliper.

The pfc ZR55's are now an (expensive) option, but they are still only 2 piston calipers. Does anyone have direct experience with something like a Wilwood 4 piston caliper ? Which model of Wilwoods are being used on the other FB's ? I know I've seen them on other brands.

Give me some recommendations to consider.

TIA...............Gary

[RobLav]

As in George Orwell, "four legs good, two legs bad"... 4 pistons are not necessarily better than two. Some here have complained about the quality of the Wilwoods. Alcon seems a pretty good caliper for the money. I bought PFC radial mount because they were made with Citation uprights in mind. But that was a huge chunk of change. If I had the option, I would have replaced my Wilwoods with Alcon.

[glenn cooper]

Alcon. With PFC non vented rotors that have the cool new floating bits...

Back to Josh - The dude is like EF Hutton: When he talks, people first scratch themselves, maybe a yawn or two, then they might fein interest for a few minutes, but the bottom line is he gets listened to eventually, and knows whereof he speaks!

[starkejt]

I doubt you would regret the Alcon, AP, or PFC calipers.

I am glad to see Coop back in my fan club.

[S Lathrop]

The PFC calipers are an evolution of the work that PFC did for European F3. In F3, 4 piston calipers were the standard. That is 4 piston, differential bore calipers that are not legal in FB.

The issue here is the not 4 pistons vs. 2 pistons but what combination of pad and rotor is required to stop the car in question. PFC determined that given the maximum braking capabilities of an F3, and the size pad and rotor that was needed, 2 pistons were all that was required.

There are many areas of brake performance where 2 pistons are way better than 4. In particular, the energy required to retract the pistons and release the braking forces.

One critical issue of brake performance is heat of the friction materials. With todays brake pads, keeping the heat at the optimum is necessary for optimum brake performance. 4 piston, big pads look great but if you can not heat them properly and keep them hot, they are not as good as smaller systems operating at their optimum.

[Gary Slahor]

So is the concensus that an aluminum 2 piston caliper (pfc, Alcon, AP) would be the better bet than any 4 piston caliper ?

[Northwind]

Gary,

I'm going with the Alcons.

I too am looking for better brakes for the FB. I'm not sure what has been going on but looking at my data it takes about 200 feet for my brakes to come into maxiumum torque on my linear G data. This car has had the worst brakes of any race car I have driven. I'm going with a complete change up. New calipers, rotors and pads.

[Brett Lane]

Went to the AP's, but they are lug mounted and I had to remove some material from the lugs to get them to fit the VD uprights. If you went to different uprights and/or rotors, maybe the PFC is a better fit.

Oh yeah- the AP's use the LD20 pads.

BTW got my tires Friday- thanks Coop.

[JerryH]

Gary,

Was it a standard LD-20 setup that you had the problems with? They were heavy, but seemed to work well for us.

Jerry

[nulrich]

The Alcons we sell bolt right up to Van Diemen uprights, no trimming required. We modified the design slightly before we introduced them for that reason. The ones that C&R Racing carries also have the new design, not sure about other Alcon distributors.

I worked with Alcon on a design for a four piston caliper with a similar pad size and shape, which we think will work slightly better than any of the two piston calipers, but it has differential bore sizes, so it isn't legal for FB. It's a bit lighter than the Alcon two piston caliper (2.2 versus 2.5 lbs), works with a disc with a narrower annulus, which saves disk weight, and it's also stiffer. But unless SCCA Club allows four piston calipers we probably won't tool it, since most of our customers run the occasional club race.

Nathan

[Gary Slahor]

I really didn't have any serious braking problems with my steel LD20's, but since I will likely be changing uprights anyway..... now's my chance to go to a better (and maybe radial mtd) caliper. I'd love to shed a few lbs of weight as well, which pretty much any aluminum caliper should do.

I just wanted to poll the users and see what you would recommend for the FB if you could start with a clean sheet of paper and all options were open.

[Wren]

Don't expect to save weight with the ZR-55's. I have also heard that the uprights that accept them are heavy as well.

[starkejt]

A ZR55 is lighter than an LD20 but heavier (by roughly a pound) than an ICP20. An Alcon is a touch lighter than an ICP20, but not by as much as some of the claims I have heard (at least in the case of the ones I have).

[nulrich]

The Alcon calipers we use are machined differently from the original Type R calipers, partly to fit the Van Diemen uprights without modification and partly for wheel clearance on the Radon. Here are the weights of the calipers I have recorded. I only weighed one of each except for the LD20 cast iron, where I weighed several examples. Not sure how much variation there might be from caliper to caliper.

Alcon (Radon version) 2.5 lbs
ICP cast iron LD20 equivalent 2.7 lbs
LD20 original 5.0 to 6.0 lbs (depending on piston material and other factors)

I've never weighed a PFC ZR55, and the weight wasn't on the spec sheet last time I looked, but I'm told they are between 3.5 and 4.0 lbs.

The AP alloy caliper is reported to be about the same weight as the Alcon, but I've never weighed one.

I weighed a Van Diemen radial mount upright for the PFC caliper and it was 0.5 lb heavier than the lug mount upright.

There is functionally no difference between lug mount and radial mount, the stiffness and weight of the installation is totally dependent on the design of the caliper and upright. Both methods can be done well. In a perfect world I would use radial mount calipers because they can be mounted with studs on the upright and are easier to remove and service.

Alcon makes a radial mount version of the Type R caliper, and I designed upright assemblies for both versions for the Radon. I was able to get the same stiffness/weight with both. In the end I chose to use lug mount calipers because it made the upright less expensive to manufacture.

Nathan

[starkejt]

I've never weighed a PFC ZR55, and the weight wasn't on the spec sheet last time I looked, but I'm told they are between 3.5 and 4.0 lbs.

I'd put it closer to 4.

[Brett Lane]

The AP alloy caliper is reported to be about the same weight as the Alcon, but I've never weighed one.


Nathan[/quote]



The AP weighs 2lbs 7ozs. Pretty darn close.

[Brakeguy1]

After reading the previous postings, I thought some comment was warrantied.

The PFC Z55 calipers have won the following since introduced in 2010.

2010 USF2000 Championship
2010 FB Runoffs National Championship
2011 USF2000 Championship
2011 F2000 Championship Series
2011 FF1600 Runoffs National Championship

Granted, the PFC option isn't for everyone. Having the other brands of brakes make wining these championships a lot more fun. Open competition brings the best out.

Note the FF1600 Runoffs National Championship. It isn't just about stopping the cars, its also about release, control, uniform force distribution, minimal distortion at elevated temperatures, optimal uniform torque takeout and zero drag.

How many of the other brands can boast they manufacture their own friction compounds that already win in USA small bore formula? Answer=Zero

Everyone talks about weight, In my opinion the conversation needs to be centered on what produces consistently faster lap times. But since we are on the subject of weight, of the other brands, which of them have heat caps with ceramic insulators as a standard feature like the PFC's? Answer=Only PFC and therefore a little added but strategic weight.

Darrick Dong

[nulrich]

The PFC Z55 calipers have won the following since introduced in 2010.

2010 USF2000 Championship
2010 FB Runoffs National Championship
2011 USF2000 Championship
2011 F2000 Championship Series
2011 FF1600 Runoffs National Championship

The USF2000 Championship requires PFC calipers, so it's no surprise that you won both championships!

Brandon did win the Runoffs, but I don't think anyone will claim calipers were the reason.

Remy won the 2011 F2000 Championship Series but he had AP calipers on the car every time I saw it. He probably used PFC pads.

I don't know Lewis Cooper, the 2011 FF Runoffs champion, but I didn't see PFC calipers on any of the top finishers in the F1600 Championship Series, which is arguably more competitive.

I believe only one competitor uses PFC calipers in the F2000 Championship Series, and as far as I know none of the top finishers in FC used them at the Runoffs in 2010 or 2011. If someone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.

Note the FF1600 Runoffs National Championship. It isn't just about stopping the cars, its also about release, control, uniform force distribution, minimal distortion at elevated temperatures, optimal uniform torque takeout and zero drag.

Absolutely true. But given that the Alcon and AP calipers are as good or better in all of those characteristics, I'll take the option that weighs and costs considerably less. There's a reason Alcon and AP have the reputation they have, and along with Brembo dominate all non-spec formula car racing.

For small formula cars, unsprung weight is very important, which is why the AP and Alcon calipers are so desirable. That said, you would be hard pressed to find any difference in lap time between the offerings from reputable manufacturers. You only have to look at data from a typical FF/FC/FB lap and it becomes clear why.

How many of the other brands can boast they manufacture their own friction compounds that already win in USA small bore formula? Answer=Zero

Absolutely correct. PFC makes great pads, which is why we use them. That doesn't say anything about their calipers. I believe the Alcon calipers and rotors are the best available, which is why we use them on the Radon chassis. Everyone is welcome to make their own choice, but it should be based on true differences, not marketing exaggerations and buzzwords.

Everyone talks about weight, In my opinion the conversation needs to be centered on what produces consistently faster lap times. But since we are on the subject of weight, of the other brands, which of them have heat caps with ceramic insulators as a standard feature like the PFC's? Answer=Only PFC and therefore a little added but strategic weight.

I'm sorry, how much do those ceramic insulators weigh? Not 1.5 lbs per caliper, I don't think. The other calipers don't use them because they are not necessary for FF/FB/FC cars, which don't overheat brake fluid.

Nathan

[TimW]

I don't know Lewis Cooper, the 2011 FF Runoffs champion, but I didn't see PFC calipers on any of the top finishers in the F1600 Championship Series, which is arguably more competitive.

Except for the fact that he beat the F1600 Series Champion and the runner up, handily. Though that doesn't tell the whole story for anyone who followed the week. Lew would have been every bit the front runner had he run more F1600 races, just off the podium in his 2nd race. So, really your point is a non-issue due to a myriad of factors.

[S Lathrop]

Brandon did win the Runoffs, but I don't think anyone will claim calipers were the reason.


Nathan

Check your dates.

[starkejt]

To be fair, it would be quite an undertaking to put PFC calipers on a DB-6 or Piper, and it is a tremendous expense to put them on a VD because you have to buy new uprights. That may explain partially why you don't see many in the F1600 series.

For the record, my belief is that the PFCs perform better than Alcons, but I do not think they are worth the added expense (including higher cost of pads) or added hassle of removing the calipers to change pads.

[nulrich]

Tim, you misunderstand me. I'm not taking anything away from Lewis Cooper or Brandon (no matter what year he won!), but I don't agree with the assertion that they won the Runoffs because of their brake calipers! If that were true, and PFC calipers had any sort of measurable advantage, most competitors in the F2000 and F1600 paddock would have them, no matter the cost.

My educated opinion is a brake caliper from any quality manufacturer will perform well in one of these cars, and that you will not measure any difference in lap time in brake performance. Unsprung weight is much more important.

I'm not suggesting you put Wilwoods or circle track calipers on your car, that will make a difference.

We are very happy with the Alcon calipers and the new Alcon disks, and I highly recommend them. Others are happy with their choices, and I would listen to their opinions as well.

Nathan

[Brakeguy1]

Nathan

I found a picture of Remy's car on the F2000 site from Lime Rock I believe. It clearly shows the what brakes were on the car even through the wheels. Yes, Remy did start the year with AP aluminum calipers and did replace them with PFC Z55. Yes the AP's with no heat caps where lighter than the PFC's. Where the AP's quicker than the PFC's? There must be a very good reason why PFC stayed on the car.

Championships are won by the sum of having made more good decisions than bad ones. So as to not to take away from the accomplishments of these championship racers, I can say all who ran the Z55 calipers at some point contacted me for advice, share their experiences and yes, comment on the costs. They earned their wins and PFC was part of that winning package.

The last time Nathan, we had a lively debate on brakes, you were touting your 4-pot LD20 aluminum replacement caliper. Now your focus is on the Alcon R Type which you infer you had design inputs with.

I was with Tilton Engineering back in the mid 1970's. Tilton was the 1st USA importer of Alcon back then. I sold the R Type calipers along with other caliper brands during that period. I even had dinner with the designer of the R Type caliper and I can say with confidence, you were not in the picture then.

Good luck with the Radon, she's a looker and for the record, as I have said in earlier post. PFC prefers open competition and let the best float to the top.

Darrick Dong

[nulrich]

Yes, Remy did start the year with AP aluminum calipers and did replace them with PFC Z55.

I stand corrected on that one point. I will ask Remy about his impression of the calipers next time I see him. The feedback I've heard from those who have used your calipers are that they worked well, but that the calipers and pads were very expensive, and they weren't happy about having to remove calipers to change the pads. None has claimed any competitive advantage. I remain open-minded, though, and would welcome any data showing an advantage.

The last time Nathan, we had a lively debate on brakes, you were touting your 4-pot LD20 aluminum replacement caliper. Now your focus is on the Alcon R Type which you infer you had design inputs with...I even had dinner with the designer of the R Type caliper and I can say with confidence, you were not in the picture then.

I think my involvement with Alcon is pretty clear if you read my postings, but I'll repeat it here. I worked with Alcon to modify the Type R caliper to bolt right up to Van Diemen uprights and to improve wheel clearance on the Radon. I also worked with Alcon on a new four-piston caliper, which draws from both my original design and the experience of their engineering staff in F3, IndyCar, Formula 1, FBMW, etc. We are not selling that caliper currently because it is not legal in SCCA Club Racing (only Pro). I hope that changes eventually, I'm very proud of the design.

To repeat, I believe the Alcon R Type caliper and Alcon disks are the best available parts, and that unsprung weight is extremely important for these cars, which is why we use Alcon calipers on the Radon. But the offerings from PFC or AP are fine products as well.

Good luck with the Radon, she's a looker and for the record, as I have said in earlier post. PFC prefers open competition and let the best float to the top.

Thanks! There is no one right answer in formula car racing (or shouldn't be) which is what makes it interesting.

Nathan

[KevinFirlein]

yeah because removing 2 jetnuts to remove a caliper to swap pads really adds to the workload. If that is a deal breaker for someone they are likely in the wrong sport. Sort of like the guy who wouldnt run ICP calipers because they had 2 bleed nipples and he didnt want to have to remove his wheels to bleed brakes ( true story)

have also stated that the car did indeed stop better with the PFC caliper( and have data to prove it) and more importantly the PFC pad design the either the standard LD20 or ICP 20. There is also less drag but I cant give an exact mph number on that as we changed multiple items at once. And since I'd have to swap out the entire corner to do a back to back its not worth it to me to prove an internet pissing match. although I admit it gets very close sometimes.

Have no experience with the newer AP or Alcon so cant speak about them and wont try.

[reidhazelton]

Note the FF1600 Runoffs National Championship. It isn't just about stopping the cars, its also about release, control, uniform force distribution, minimal distortion at elevated temperatures, optimal uniform torque takeout and zero drag.

Brakes were hardly the sole reason he won. I had old, crappy ICP20 front/LD19 rear combo and set the track record at the Runoffs. I bought the ICPs used to $150 right here on apexspeed. Let's keep some sanity and realism here, it isn't F1.

[starkejt]

This is the brake package I recommend:

[reidhazelton]

This is the brake package I recommend:

I think you can squeeze one more on top and another on the bottom.

[starkejt]

I think you can squeeze one more on top and another on the bottom.

Though about it, but I ran out of safety wire.

[nulrich]

Put an ICP on top and an AP on the bottom and we can all join together in singing Kumbaya.

Nathan

[KevinFirlein]

you realise if Schweitz sees that he gonna wanna try it. Perhaps you'd be safer with 1 caliper per corner but a different brand per corner

[starkejt]

Put an ICP on top and an AP on the bottom and we can all join together in singing Kumbaya.

Nathan

I would have stuck an ICP on there as well, but I only have ones for 1/4" rotors.

you realise if Schweitz sees that he gonna wanna try it. Perhaps you'd be safer with 1 caliper per corner but a different brand per corner

Nah, he likes the PFCs better. But he's also old and stupid.

[carnut169]

Here's my experience withbrakes this year:

Started with the AP LD20s which worked great- but are heavy

Swapped to new ICP LD20s and they are quite a bit lighter. Ran them for 2 weekends- I did not have an improvement in lap times and liked the feel of the AP calipers better. Being a one man team it's hard to remove all the wheels and swap pads for each secession on a test day- I never did. I did not notice any uneven pad wear but have since measured the pads and there is a slight taper. Guess they need to be replaced

Swapped to new AP alloy calipers. Really thought they felt even lighter than the ICPs- maybe not but there is definately a lot more material there. I'll let you know if the feel/ performance is as good as the standard APs when I use them in March.


I'm pretty sure I'd be as fast as Remy if i had the PFC calipers. He's lucky I don't...

[Chris Livengood]

A wise man once told me, "brakes only slow you down."

[JohnPaul]

A wise man once told me, "brakes only slow you down."

Actually that's good advice. I did a Frank Kinsey MC race school years ago, he has an interesting technique designed to make you develop a rhythm and make you smooth by not using brakes at all. It takes a lot of personal restraint because you basically start off pretty slow comparable to your average lap times but after doing it all day session after session your speeds come back up. By the end of the day i started adding a bit of braking and sure a sh@t I was running significantly faster times than I ever did on a track I ran on for years.

I haven't tried his technique in years but I'm going to try it again next time I get a chance.

[glenn cooper]

that said something to the effect of brakes are not for slowing down, but rather only for balancing the car.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut - Pretty sure there were no Z55 PFC, AP, Alcon back then!

On a similar note I believe I recall someone telling me that the double leading shoe drum setups of the day were pretty damned impreessive.

The way I figure it, the hard ass truck recaps w/o tread they ran back then couldn't take much brake either!

JP I think Kinsey "borrowed" the no brake lapping deal from Keith Code.

[starkejt]

It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula One Level, think that the brakes are for slowing the car down.

– Mario Andretti

[JohnPaul]

JP I think Kinsey "borrowed" the no brake lapping deal from Keith Code.

I'm a pretty big fan of Keith Code and I don't remember reading about a no brake lapping exercise (although I may be wrong). Come to think of it Kinsey is very Old school and Keith may have borrowed it from him! Either way pretty cool exerise.

[glenn cooper]

It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula One Level, think that the brakes are for slowing the car down.

– Mario Andretti

I never really quite understand these type statements, and usually put it down to bravado...
I'm certain I am just not "getting" the statement.

Maybe I need to run it by Mario next time I see him - "You are on a straight approaching a corner at 150 mph. The corner can not be taken at any speed greater than approx 50mph. Please explain in detail why I do not want to use the brakes" (!)

Oh yeah - tell me about the quad backflip too!

[starkejt]

I always took it to mean that the better you use the brakes (and also the better they function), the faster your lap time. So in that sense, good brakes applied properly will not slow you down lap time wise. I think that's what he means.