Can you take a FC & make it into a FF
Hello All,
Just trying to broaden my scope of things and I started thinking, are the FC just a FF with wings and a 2.0 motor, wheels. Or is there more to it, things like transmission are different, or could it be expensive to make into a FF. Anyways any info would be great. Thanks.
Ben
Ben, you've got the gist of it - wings, engine and wheels/tires - and probably other things you'll need to figure out. For instance, bodywork may need to change since engine intake and exhaust are different. The FC brakes may not fit the cheaper FF wheels. Maybe need a different transaxle input shaft?
Many people have converted FC to FF. If it is a common swap, like the DB-6, you'll find plenty of help from people who've done it and companies with parts.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
Hi Ben,
The short answer is yes, most FCs can be converted into an FF. Every Swift DB-6 running is a former FC DB-6. Many VanDiemens have been converted. Pipers and Citations too.
In making the conversion to FF, the wings come off, you have to buy 5.5 inch wheels, and convert the engine either to a Kent engine or a Honda. The gearbox can be retained, but in most cases you have to either replace or modify the input shaft. If you convert from 2.0 to 1.6 Ford Kent the carb will be on the other side of the car, you have to make some changes to body wok and sometimes the frame. But it is not a lot of work.
HTH
Tom
Yes, but there are more differences besides the engine & wings. Specifically, the FC runs 6 & 8" wheels and the FF requires 5.5" wheels all around. So you'll need to switch. Also, many FCs have larger brakes which won't fit under the inexpensive 5.5" wheels. The input shaft will also need to be shortened for the Kent as well as a top front motor mount will be needed There is also bodywork issues in that the FC carb is on the left and on the right on the Kent, so it will take some adaptation. Also, if the FC has a staffs the fuel pump could interfere with the middle section gear linkage depending on the donor car.Originally Posted by brncaprixr4ti
I converted my DB6 and there are several others who have done the same as well as other cars such as Pipers, VanDiemans, perhaps a Citation or two.
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
Thanks for the input, and alot of the info I was looking for. The good thing would be sell the FC stuff buy FF stuff and there you go. Now if I went that way finding the right Chassis that you can buy body pieces for would be a good thing, unless there is a web page or .com out there for the Piper, van diemen, swift & so on for body parts?.
Ben
pretty much anything you need for any chassis can be bought from doug at fastforward (piper and swift), or brad at primus (VD)
I assume this question is in the context of autocrossing.. If so, a lot of FC's have a 10/31 R&P and I think you really need a 9/31 to get gearing right fof autocrossing, assuming the "spec" Hoosier tires. As mentioned, wheels are different, but it sure seems like used FF wheels are tough to come by, depending on the chassis. Personally, for a Kent, I'd look for a FF car, for a Fit, an FC is worth looking at.
Barry
Yep Barry, It's for autocross and unless I buy a FF that has some prep for autocross, there will be parts I'm going to have to buy anyways, no matter what FC/FF I buy, So.....
Ben
FYI there either are or have been several "former FC's" converted to FF and running autocross. Regarding gears with the 10:31 this doesn't seem to be a problem. Just get the shortest fixed input first gear instead to the next step up. The common target speed range at 6800 rpm for first is 45/46 mph with our 22 inch rear tires. I think you can hit the other popular "speed in gear" speeds with either r&p.
Dick
Well Thank you All for your input, it give me alot more options when looking for a car.
Any other opinions or maybe what would be the easer FC to change into a FF, I'm liking the 90's cars. Thanks
Ben
re: 10/31 vs 9/31. For a Mk 9 gearbox, Dick is probably right (he usually is) but for an ld200, there's less options for fixed first gear ratios so you need a 9/31. The newer the car, the more likely it will have an ld200.
As usual Barry is also right.re: 10/31 vs 9/31. For a Mk 9 gearbox, Dick is probably right (he usually is
what are these "inexpensive FF wheels" that are spoken of??lol
my FF came with 10/31 r&p in a Mk9 = I purchased the smallest integral 1st shaft and is about 45mph in first.
My car came with LD20 FC front brakes = better selection of street compound pads that work better than the road race only pads made for LD19. Caliper is very close to rim so I do have to be selective of rims that fit.
I am curious how a DB3 with the updated suspension would work for autocross. How is the turning radius of a DB3 compared to a DB1? Would anyone let me borrow a DB3 for a test drive? say with Honda power?
I hear ya.what are these "inexpensive FF wheels" that are spoken of??
After doing a lot of shopping around Keith Averill had Panasports for around $235 ea. but that was more than a year ago ...AFAIK there are no differences between a DB-1 and DB-3. I think those steering parts are the same.I am curious how a DB3 with the updated suspension would work for autocross. How is the turning radius of a DB3 compared to a DB1?I think I know someone who'd be happy to let you give it a go. :-).Would anyone let me borrow a DB3 for a test drive? say with Honda power?
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
Why not run an FC as an underprepared BM car? No one is running BM as it is written in our area anyway. 'Zeus has his Monster March in the rafters but seems content running EM and CP for now, at least until there's someone to race in BM.
Someone a few months ago called this idea the CM+ class. OK, it won't win Nationals or the Stockers darling PAX manipulation, so what? We could even make up a regional CM+ class if we could talk a couple more into the game.
I am running an old Crossle 63F and find the 10-31 gears OK at least on our airport circuits, and it all costs about half or less of an old short wheelbase FF, such as Dave Rocha or Dave Jalen's DB1 cars would have cost. I can add dual Webers easily and pick up a bunch of midrange grunt too maybe, for less money than a R&P change anyway.
My tire wear appears to be about half or a third of my EP car's too, and no $12 a gallon race gas either.
It's lots of fun ducking those flying cones now heading into your head. Well, it is for me anyway. 8-)
Besides, you have easily beaten me for years in our sedans, why would that not still be fun?
Dennis
I ran a Formula Ford (Lotus 61) in B Mod for several years with the motor upgraded with a cam and Webers. I may still have the jetting information if anyone would be interested. It was a lot of fun locally, but not close to competitive in the current B Mod at Nationals.
Greg Scharnberg
My foggy memory makes me think there is some massaging of the DB1 front upright to help with tight turns in autocross. Like around pivot cones tight.
but then, I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ???
Dennis,
Will you be doing a Jan 1 event in 2012? By then, I will be itching to get the Van Diemen back on a course.
Mark
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
LD-200 date
FYI, many of the manufacturers switched from the Mark 9 to the LD-200 around 1989. Anything earlier than 89 is almost assurectly a Mark 9 (or Mark 8).
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
Larry Oliver
My 90 Van Diemen has an LD-200 and 9/31 dif. It works great for autocross.
Mark
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
For Van Diemen the switch from Mk9 to LD200 was midyear in 1989. I found what I thought was a great oil tank for my car and figured that out before he shipped it thankfully.
UFO has scheduled another January 1 date at Marina Airfield in Marina CA near to Laguna Seca. We have done this about 12 times in years past and had only 1 rain day as I recall, last year The annual meeting this Saturday will determine just what kind of event it will be.
Dennis
Dennis,
Keep us informed.
Mark
1990 Van Diemen, the Racing Machine, CM AutoX, 2016 Frontier
You can try to make a street car into an autocrosser or you can do a lot less work and make a race car into a great autocrosser
Yes you can FC to FF.........but don't do all that to such a nice car simply to go autoX....the manufacturer would never admit it in public but they'd probably want to shoot you for doing such to a car built to be full on racer. Just take the wings off, work on your suspension set up, find some very low gears and go run what class you end up in and be happy....keeping a bigger footprint on the ground is not such a bad thing.....a lot less work for the same amount of fun.....and it would be simple to return the car to full trim some day....the car deserves it.
The FC wings are legal in BM, in fact the 2000 motor is even CM legal in S2000 trim but not in FC/FF2000 trim. CM is silly restricted, down to about 10 specific and roadrace spec restricted FF cars. This means about 3 cars are "competitive", the same ones most eagerly anticipated as future vintage cars. Say DB1s for example...
BM is just the opposite, it's way too open. Just soften the springs, regear the transmission, and put stickier tires in an obsolete FC car, or FM or FA or even F3 if you've got that kind of toy, and go chase the cones.
You can hotrod another motor if you wiish too, Pinto 2.3s are direct bolt ins for the Pinto 2.0s for example and can be made into 200hp toys easily and cheaply, that's FA power for FC money.
The car remains a fully legal and unviolated RR car whenever "they" allow your "obsolete" car into vintage games.
Ben's dilemma is he wants to contest the Nebraska events, and so he wants a cheap, class legal, winning CM car, whatever that may be, but can't afford the Rocha DB1 of his dreams. Me too.
Dennis
If by "silly restricted" you mean it is the autocross equivalent of FF, you are correct.
However, it is not really restricted to a limited number of cars anymore than FF is.
CM FF's are "restricted" to series produced FF's from any and all of the major vendors over however many decades the cars have been built. The reason was to avoid "one off" autocross specials so that ex road race cars or dual use autox/road race is possible (which has been done with one converted Reynard FC by the way). ALSO any former road race cars that don't happen to be on the list can easily be added with a simple request.
CM FF's can do anything that is allowed in the GCR for FF. For most of us that means shorter gears, FC size front tires using Hoosier 25B compound, no fire system, and add a muffler. The 85 VD that got 2nd 3rd this year at Nationals (much better than I or any other 85 VD has done previously) still had an iron head and apparently a tired engine. And lots of TLC over the winter to restore a somewhat tired road race car.
While it is true that only a few particular makes/models have won the National Championship over the years, a wide range of other have done very well.
Part of the issue is that the cars popular for autocross tend to be the ones which are too new (inboard suspension) for club ford and too old for competitive road racing AND generally are ones for which parts are still available. This frequently means mid 80's Reynards and Van Diemens are most common with a specific Citation and a few DB1's. I suspect "Locked" will jump in with another counter example (74 Dulon) he and the owner have driven VERY well.
Conversely, BM pretty much requires a small motorcycle engined sports racer in recent years. Former FC's don't seem to be competive at the Nationals afaik.
Dick
85 VD
CM 85
While I do have a personal love/bias toward my car, I've yet to prove to myself that it's faster than Mark's '73 Dulon... As an outsider, ask Clemens Burger his opinion.. Everytime he would say "Dulon".Part of the issue is that the cars popular for autocross tend to be the ones which are too new (inboard suspension) for club ford and too old for competitive road racing AND generally are ones for which parts are still available. This frequently means mid 80's Reynards and Van Diemens are most common with a specific Citation and a few DB1's. I suspect "Locked" will jump in with another counter example (74 Dulon) he and the owner have driven VERY well.
Conversely, BM pretty much requires a small motorcycle engined sports racer in recent years. Former FC's don't seem to be competive at the Nationals afaik.
Dick
85 VD
CM 85
I'm a firm believer that any chassis can win in CM.. Each with a different advantage / disadvantage. The '70's era cars really have a size advantage. I don't think we see many of them because of the vintage price tag.
My own opinion in regard to BM... I wouldn't show up with anything other than a LeGrand, or something similar in size... I wish I had a picture of Clemens LeGrand next to either my car or Mark's. It's TINY, both in length and width.
Nick M.
Driving - your car if you'll let me.
My biggest draw to the CM class is the fact that class has very little you can do to the car to make it competitive, it's mostly up to the driver. You can still tinker with the FF's but the base FF is there to go fast.
The good thing about CM is You don't have to go out find yourself a Car chassis (xr4ti) then hope it will be competitive when you spend 20 to 30.000 dollars and after all that they don't put a car in your class that is an overdog, which make you car Ahhh... done.
Hey Dennis, I'm not ready just to buy a "car" because it's fast. I still feel like I can drive a car to the National level what ever that maybe and even then I hope that my Son will pick up where I left off, That maybe be a CM/FF, not some car thats not competitive in the class it was built for.
Ben
KISS Keep It Simple Stupid
So the car would be legal with wings.........think.......aero starts to help up around 70+ miles an hour...so for the most part a FC with wings on an autoX course would 1. make little difference from a grip stand point 2. would occasionally ding a wing on a cone...not only tearing up a wing [and wing repairs get expensive] but then you have the cone penalty too.
Take the wings off the FC, soften the susp. and go have fun - you can compare times to your FF buddies no matter what class you're in - you're going to spend a LOT of money to get a FF car that's not worth very much when you're finished with it....so you can get a $10 trophy. K I S S
Well to those of you that like to go fast "per say" with no way of knowing how fast your going, each to his own. This is just not me, I love when someone gets me one weekend and I get them the next and yes all for a $10 trophy.
Dennis, With regards to the swift, it's a nice looking FF but aero has nothing to do with autocross. I'm doing alot of reading here on Apex to make the right choice.
Thank you all for the great info to my question.
Ben
Yeah Ben, I'm with ya, the Competition is just as important as the driving fun :-) Hey, I just saw the post for the DB1 in Denver, I suspect it's a little "more" than you're looking for, but I'd be glad to take a look at it if you're interested. I know J.D. and Dave at Front Range Motorsports, they're top notch!
Barry
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