Mechanical Engineering question!

[chevy 1011]

I was thinking about going to school for it way before thinking to apply it with racing but I need some questions answered. Even if I do I won't be qualified for a long time so hopefully you guys will respond. I was gonna go the uti route but I don't want to work at a dealership and do the race team thing but I won't be able to race on the weekends. What's the starting pay for an entry level position? Will I still be able to race on the weekends? How hard would it be to get a job? In what other fields could I apply that degree? I know there will be allot of building, will i be taught to weld? I have been taking apart and building things(nothing special) since a kid and I have allot of ideas. I hope I get some good responses so I can finally make a choice and start school. If you don't want to give any info publicly please pm or email me.

Rich

[wake74]

Rich,

I think you first need to decide if you want to get a Mechanical Engineering Degree (BSME), or a Mechanical Engineering Technology Degree, or go to a school such as UTI to learn Mechanics. Huge differences between all three, particulary between the first two and a tech school such as UTI. Completely different types of schools, prequalifications for admissions, calculus and Differental Equations (makes me cringe to even think about that course) in the BSME program verses hands-on at UTI, etc.

I don't know a lot about the UTI type route but can lend some thoughts on the Mechanical Engineering route if that is where you think you are headed.

Glenn
PE Mechanical

[Lee Shumosic]

Here's my take....I have a ME degree.

Engineering principles and fabrication principles are two diffent animals. Being good at one isn't always a sure path to the other.

I believe that a good engineering foundation in any of the mechanical areas such as strees, structures, fluids, thermal, materials etc. will provide a strong foundation to further develop fabrication skills. You need to know what to put where and what to make it from before you start.

While I'm not a great welder (just don't do it enough......in racing that may be a good thing), I can design and spec out what I need and sub it out. Yet I marvel at the craftsmanship and the process that yield the rsults. Think Mark Donahue and Dan Gurney.

A ME degree offers broader opportunities IMHO and potentialy more discressionary income and both offer the opportunity to get your hands dirty.

Either way you need to do something that you enjoy.

That's why I'm in IT

[jeff68]

ME here to. no doubt that Lee is 100% without question correct. If you have the means to pursue a BSME go for it. It's assumed you have an interest in all things mechanical which means math and physics too. An education in engineering will give you the foundation for which you can always rely on to understand real world things. It's one thing to know many things but entirely another to know why things are the way they are and to understand at the most basic levels of why they cannot be any other way. You'll be much better equiped to weed out the B.S. with an engineering degree versus just about any other education related to mechanics, cars, etc.. The education is 100X more important than just it's application to racing. You may find that racing is something you'd rather do as a hobby than live it everday.

Cheers

[R. Pare]

Go for the BSME if you can. A lot will depend on the school you attend as to how well you are able to apply your knowledge.

The one thing that any good engineering education will teach you is how to look at things - lawyers will always claim that law school changed the way they think, and engineering school will as well, making it a lot easier for you to pick up things from new disciplines and sort out the good from the bad.

Most decent engineering schools have labs available, and sometimes courses or extra-curricular activities, where you can learn more of the hands-on manual skills (machining, welding, electronics, etc). Look into what your school offers there when searching for the best fit for you.

Good luck!

[Reddog]

FAT; DUMB AND STUPID, IS NO WAY TO GO THROUGH LIFE ...

[starkejt]

FAT; DUMB AND STUPID, IS NO WAY TO GO THROUGH LIFE ...

drunk

[Reddog]

drunk

good one...
I was about to correct that errata ... but I was getting another beer

[starkejt]

I was getting another beer

[HayesCages]

Sage advice from all the above.
My brother is an ME and participated in the Formula SAE competition while in school at the UofWa, gaining many real-world skills and a degree at the same time.
He's involved with a company that provides devices to aircraft manufacturers world wide.
Just one of many fields you could go into with such schooling.
Good luck!

Or you could go into maching as well....always an opportunity to learn new things and you can build some of the coolest parts anyone has seen on YOUR own racer!
http://www.edref.com/college-degrees...inist/virginia

("beers" posted prior to me posting the "Sage advice" comment...)

[Reddog]

[FONT=Calibri]So much for BSME’s …say how about Homestead ... ... [/FONT]

[starkejt]

I think a BSME is great (I have one, IIRC), but it's equally important to learn how to work with your hands, how to make things, etc. You don't want to be the engineer with a 4.0 GPA that has never worked on anything or has never made anything.

[HayesCages]

Just looked closer at that link...do't go there.
check here perhaps: http://internshipfinder.jobamatic.co...Washington,+DC

[TimW]

I think a BSME is great (I have one, IIRC), but it's equally important to learn how to work with your hands, how to make things, etc. You don't want to be the engineer with a 4.0 GPA that has never worked on anything or has never made anything.

If you have the math & science grades from high school to get into engineering school and can make it through the calculus & physics I'd recommend you go for the BSME. You can always do a technician job out the other end if that is what you prefer but you'll be well prepared to do more. A hands on engineer or a well knowledge foundationed technician is aways a golden asset.

The downside is the lost income/education costs of the longer degree program. If you're young the time is not a big deal and if a state school option is available with in-state tuition then its a good investment.

I had to take metal fab, machining & welding classes as an ME (affectionately known as 'bend a box,' 'burn a bit' and 'strike an arc,' respectively) which gave a good introduction...and there were opportunities for much more, as others have said, like FSAE, or Mini Baja SAE, etc.

And by the way, even Google hires mechanical engineers:
http://www.google.com/intl/en/jobs/u...iew/index.html

[HayesCages]

Go for it if you can! You only have one life to live....

[Mark_Silverberg]

Certainly a professional degree will provide more opportunities for higher salary and advancement.

If you are one of the fortunate who can take 4-5 years to pursue a BSME it is well worth your time.

If you can't right now then a mechanics certification through a technical school or an associates degree in engineering technology is a viable start. Just be aware that you will likely be back in school in the near future for additional training. If you are lucky howver, you may have an employer who will help pay. It is quite likely that you could end up getting a degree beyond a BSME as well. I returned for my MBA after only two years in the work force.

Not all BSME programs are equal on focus and perscpective. Some are long on theory and do not require more practicle skills such as computer aided design or machine shop training. Others put much more emphasis on labs and hands on work.


There are also schools with motorsports related programs such as IUPUI (Indiana University Perdue University Indianapolis) or University of North Carolina Charlotte.

The SAE student design competitions are excellent opportunites to gain practical training and gain hands on experience. If you attend a smaller school participation in such programs can be much more difficult because of time required and getting funding.

[thomschoon]

Lots of good advice in the above, be careful of the UTI's of the world, do a google search for feedback from former students, spending $40k for an entry level job at a dealership is not a good investment, either go to the local community college or better yet pursue a ME degree. I started as an aircraft mechanic, had a good employer that helped pay for my BS/MS/PhD and think both options are valid, actually taking the Airframe & Power Plant training to be a licensed mechanic taught me all the fabrication skills as well as getting lots of practical experience, find what works for you as you have to live with the results.

Take care

Thom

[Mark_Silverberg]

Yes, the for profit trade schools and colleges are getting some bad reviews - especially in this down economy. They often get their students into loan programs which can be difficult from which to recover.

Community colleges are good alternatives and many will have good technology programs in areas where business have a demand for such.

I for one have tremendous respect for engineers who started as a technician or had other hands on background. They tend to be much more grounded and disciplined in their decision making background. They are particularly aware of those who have to implement or service their designs.

[Swift17]

Degree -- Graduated in 2009 with a BSME - during his first two college summers he worked at a independent BMW shop. He interned at Siemens and then/now is employed at General Dynamics -- Ordinance and Tactical Systems Divisions. I am not sure what he does (I don't ask him because ... "If I tell you then I would have to .....") but he designs, builds prototypes, tests and then sources for production - The reason I say this is because he was in FSAE and served one year as Team Leader. He says the real world skills in building FSAE cars, (design, prototype, test .... and leadership) was invaluable and was partly instrumental in getting his current position.

Time was critical - when he was not studying, he was at the SAE shop - he learned and used SolidWorks, MathCad. He satisfied his two degree/course mandated design and build projects with (1) suspension and a (2) differential for the SAE car.

His Peers: Like Mark said, engineers who have hands on background are respected and preferred. They tend to be grounded, disciplined and practical. His BMW and SAE work made him appreciate the in-field work force who service his designs.

His suggestion: some of your electives should be in intro to business as possible prerequisites (he didn't) - he is now part time still in school working for an employer "suggested" MBA. Design and production costs are ALWAYS paramount.

Racing during school, then .... - From Summer 2004 through Summer 2006 we did a total of four weekends; In 2007 (we went crazy) we did six and won the SARRC Championship/Champion; 2008- 09 four weekends (Senior Year deep in SAE and Senior Design) -- and the 40th FF Festival @ RA was the requested graduation weekend - the past two years we did approx 6 Nat'l/Reg'l weekends a year.

BSME $$ there are multiple internet sources discussing the need for engineers and the $$ paid. $50K+ to start appears to be a good average.

[HayesCages]

As I mentioned above my brother is an ME working for an aircraft manufacturer supplier. As of last year they cannot find enough American engineers to fill their staff, so they're hiring out of country persons.
You'll always have a job waiting for you if you go this route.

[vitis]

Just thought I would put in my two cents. My son did a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering at Virginia Tech then did a Master's at Clemson in Automotive Engineering. He now is working for Force Protection building MRAPs for the military. He had some collegues in his automotive engineering school go either to Michelin, BMW, Goodyear or with NASCAR racing. Sounds like they are all pretty happy with their jobs.
My son and I race (he's the driver) in Production catagory SCCA and enjoy the interaction of data acquisition and analysis. Gives us an opportunity to experiment a little.

Milt

[Will Velkoff]

BSME from Lafayette College here, graduated in 2010.

FSAE team member all 4 years, team captain my senior, led us to a 33rd place finish in only our 3rd year competiting! The FSAE experience was the best part of my college career, and made me a much better engineer than all the other pencil pushers that couldn't design themselves out of a wet cardboard box. I came in with a racing/automotive background so that definitely gave me the up front knowledge that I needed to apply practical solutions with engineering.

Now I race a FF as a hobby, and I work for a big company that designs/builds valves for Nuclear powerplants and Navy use. Also do some training/work with an F2000 team as a helper/race engineer in training. Even though I don't do racing full time, I still do plenty and it's definitely fun racing myself and owning my own car.

Starting salarys with a BSME on average are about $50,000.

[2BWise]

Several people with experiences very similar to mine. BSME, FSAE, straight to industry

Went to university with very basic automotive knowledge. I then spent 5 yrs doing FSAE and spending way more time in the shop than on my school work. When I graduated I had an average engineering GPA (slightly above a 3), but with significantly more practical knowledge gained from FSAE. During my interviews the companies were far more interested in my practical experience, teamwork, and leadership abilities. FSAE allowed me to do all those things. Plus, there is the networking that it provides.

When I started school I wanted to go into racing as an engineer, but by the time I was interviewing for full time positions I'd figured out that I enjoyed the driving and track experiences more than working in the pits. It was then that I realized going into racing meant little to no racing because most weekends would already be spoken for. Therefore, I passed on trying to get my foot in the door in racing and decided I would enjoy racing on my own more. The caveat is that I still was able to end up in the automotive field and doing development work. It may not be racing, but I get to put the same skillset to use on vehicle development plus getting to spend a lot of time in the vehicle. Then on the weekends I get to take my car to the track and race myself.

[Brian.Novak]

Good advice from everyone above.

BSME here. Get it if you can, your future prospects will be much greater with it and make sure you do FSAE as well. Companies will recruit/hire you over another prospect solely because of this, especially if you held a leadership position at a good team with a well executed car.

Now I didn't do FSAE because I preferred to concentrate on my efforts in the SCCA amongst other reasons but I could probably stand up in my cube and ask who did FSAE and ~90% of the people would raise their hands, it's that prevelant.

[Brian.Novak]

And to add to this, if you have the funds or can get them, GO AWAY TO COLLEGE! DON'T STAY AT HOME.

[Swift17]

Go away to college ............

[farrout]

Retired BSME. Did the deed back in the late 60's when we used sliderules before the HP400 came out. I would have killed for a FSAE opportunity!

All the comments above are great advice. The only thing I can add is to investigate a Cooperative Education school. Yes - it takes 5 years to do since you are alternating quarters/semesters of school and work. The upside is that you are working during school and most companies will provide tuition assistance to their co-ops. The other upside is that you get to apply your engineering studies to real work applications. Somewhere in my sophomore year, I decided that I really liked this stuff. Not all Co-op jobs are great - a roommate got to be a good draftsman at his place while I was in the field doing submarine design work and testing components for the Navy.

University of Cincinnati, Drexel, Georgia Tech are co-op schools as I remember.

[TimW]

All the comments above are great advice. The only thing I can add is to investigate a Cooperative Education school. Yes - it takes 5 years to do since you are alternating quarters/semesters of school and work.

I did a coop term during my degree (Cal Poly Pomona) with a factory backed Off Road race team. Spent 6 months trying to get a truck to fly stably, some by simulation and most by a lot of track testing. It was a great experience and in the end worth being on the 5 year (well, 6 for me) program.

[2BWise]

University of Cincinnati, Drexel, Georgia Tech are co-op schools as I remember.

Cincinnati (my alma mater) still has their program, and its mandatory. Helps break up the monotony of the year by alternating quarters of work and school. If it wasn't for that I would have burned out for sure. The other nice thing is that there is potential to have a job offer well before graduation. The other plus is the money. Since UC's coops are all paid coops you make a good chunk of change. Much more than your counterparts working summer jobs.

[chevy 1011]

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it! I did some more research on everything last night, now correct me if I'm wrong. The engineer makes the blueprints and builds the prototypes, the machinists make the parts and the technician builds and repairs there designs. The machinists looks more like the middle man and will become obsolete in the very near future, no disrespect to any machinists out there. I don't think I will have the money for the full ride to try and get my BSME, so community college for two years and transferring is more up my ally. How much a year did it cost you all for school? Any suggestions for the community college route? Also I've been looking into building prototype super cars, I want to still be around cars but it wouldn't be hard for me to adapt to something else.

Thanks again,
Rich

[thomschoon]

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it! I did some more research on everything last night, now correct me if I'm wrong. The engineer makes the blueprints and builds the prototypes, the machinists make the parts and the technician builds and repairs there designs. The machinists looks more like the middle man and will become obsolete in the very near future, no disrespect to any machinists out there. I don't think I will have the money for the full ride to try and get my BSME, so community college for two years and transferring is more up my ally. How much a year did it cost you all for school? Any suggestions for the community college route? Also I've been looking into building prototype super cars, I want to still be around cars but it wouldn't be hard for me to adapt to something else.

Thanks again,
Rich

There is a big difference between a machinist/tool maker and a button pusher fresh out of the community college, we cant find tool makers and they are making more than most of my engineers, craftsman will never go away if you have skill and an engineering background. You need to educate yourself on the options and differences in salary before you make a decision. ( damn that sounded so much like my father)

[Mark_Silverberg]

Good machinists will never become obsolete. Their demise has been predicted for 30 years. When I started engineering school in the early 80's the prediction was that everthing would be done by computer. We are still waiting. Machinists are not going anywhere.

[farrout]

The full time Coop route (like my alma mater - Univ Cinn) can enable you to put yourself thru school. The coop jobs pay pretty well and you do 6 months a year working. Plus I worked some on vacations (xmas, etc). Many coop companies will also offer tuition assistance. The Navy gave me 50% costs of tuition and books. Martin Marietta gave me a full ride for freshman year (particular scholarship as it was for a UC engineering student who came from the Washington/Baltimore area). There are niche scholarships out there, check with the schools.

[TimH]

Good machinists will never become obsolete. Their demise has been predicted for 30 years. When I started engineering school in the early 80's the prediction was that everthing would be done by computer. We are still waiting. Machinists are not going anywhere.

Actually, far too many are going into retirement or the grave. I can't imagine a time there won't be a need for more of them than we have.

[Bill Valet]

Hi Rich,

You should check out State schools if you're looking to keep costs down. The in-State tuition is usually pretty reasonable (in comparison). UMD has a darn good engineering school and I believe the tuition for MD residents is around $8-9K per year. Great bang for the buck. If your SAT's and grades are up to snuff, definitely give it a shot!

I'm got my BSME from Lehigh. I chose mechanical engineering because I felt it gave me the best shot to get a job in almost any field. MechE's are well rounded engineers. To that point, I've worked for three companies, all of which produce very different products. I've designed automation equipment, worked at UL writing test reports and procedures, and now I'm at a government lab designing and developing a new synchrotron light source.

To echo other's statements, join the FSAE team as soon as possible if the school has one. It's been a talking point at every interview I've ever been on, and has been a factor in each of the job's I've had even 5-6 years after graduation. It really is that big of a deal. Most companies would take a kid with a lower GPA who was on an FSAE team than a kid with a 4.0 GPA from the same school because the FSAE kid has far and beyond more real world practical engineering experience. Theory can only get you so far.

And for reference, up in the northeast starting salaries for new grads with an engineering degree is hovering around $60K now. Also, you'll definitely be able to race on the weekends, I've done it with my family for 5 years now with no problems.

Best of luck!

- Bill Valet

[swifttiga]

I say go for the BSME, I did (go Rutgers) interned at Purolator when they did nascar saw the display car from afar but did design some neat industrial filters. Then interned with Foster Wheeler and had my mind set on career in the power industry but I was hired by a medical co. Warner Lambert then Pifzer and I have been designing medical implants ever since now own a small Biomed co. Point, you never know where the training will take you but you will always have options. To get your car 'fix' buy a classic and restore it you will learn and do things you never thought of.
Lloyd.

[starkejt]

On the flip side, where I got my BSME was about $30k per year, which is almost the low end for a private school. If I had to do it over, I would go somewhere else, for a few reasons. For one, it gets old being asked the "Where'd you go to school?" question because the answer always gets a "WTF is that?" look, and I think it is better for people to have heard of the school from which you got your degree. Otherwise, you end up having to defend it, "B-b-b-ut it's a good school!" Second, I'd probably pick somewhere that had real football/basketball teams because I like that sort of thing. Finally, I'd recommend actually going to class once in a while. I've heard that works out better in the end.

[Lee Shumosic]

Rich -
In re-reading some of your posts it may help those on this site who are willing to help by sharing their experiances and advice if we knew some more about where you are at with your education. Are you in HS, Trade school, night school, not in school etc?

If so the answers to and relevant help would be available to you through a teacher or guidance counsler. If your not in school then community colleges local to you is a great place to start.

The reason I ask is that your goals of racing on the weekends and building supercars seem to conflict with not wanting to work at a dealer because of the potential time restrictions and understanding the difference between a design engineer, machinest and technition.

All of these goals are attanable within reason through work, disipline and hopefully some luck along the way.

Getting into a technical BS program at any college will require an application process that will focuse heavly on math and science performance already achieved or transfered.

Racing, building super car prototypes, schooling all reaquire $$$. Either yours or somebody elses.

Very few of the members on this site ( approaching zero) make a living driving race cars. Many make a living in the racing industry. Most participate in the sport as a hobby and labor of love. There are so many opportunities to participate within the racing and performance industry. You just need to find the right way to get involved at this point in your life.

The one common thread (here we go w/ sage advice...) is furthering your education will never be a bad thing. It provides a foundation and better positions you to have choices. Be it super-cars, racing on weekends, crew support, shock engineer, aerodynamicist, teacher etc.

[DaveW]

Good machinists will never become obsolete. Their demise has been predicted for 30 years. When I started engineering school in the early 80's the prediction was that everthing would be done by computer. We are still waiting. Machinists are not going anywhere.

There is a great machine shop that I use in our area (Akron, OH) that is going out of business because HE CAN'T HIRE GOOD MACHINISTS lately. The ones he can hire are unable to do the required work!

[chevy 1011]

I understand the role of the machinist and I didn't mean the button pushers. Every thing is becoming computerized now a days and if I decide that route a machine will be doing most of my work. Also, when I said obsolete, I meant the term machinist will become obsolete. From what I'm seeing, the machinist is being forced to evolve into a programmer, to me that takes the fun out of everything. Last night I read through over 50 pages of post of machinist saying they have to go to school for programing, they make 50,000 with over time plus years of experience, most not recommending anyone pursue this trade, there switching trades and if there was a job over 50,000 they would be fighting hundreds for the job. I see why there so many machinists jobs, no one want's the job any more.

As for me, I am out of school and because of family problems i've been set back. When I was in school I thought becoming an engineer but was intimidated by the math and what the guidance counselor said, mainly costs. I wasn't that really focused on school because of family issues, that's when uti came up but as I said I don't wan to work in a dealer environment. I could have got into fabrication from that route but I would be fighting against many others with out of school experience for what I wanted to do. Its just me my mom and the lil bro so I lack guidance and that's why I'm asking you guys for advice. I am now much more mature and focus since high school from going through my situation, so I'm not scared of the math any more. I can now move on well not really but I have to leave the nest you know! From you alls advice, I'm planing to go to community college for two years and hopefully my grades are good enough to transfer to a good school. As lee said acceptance will depend on my grades, I wouldn't mind doing full time co op but that looks out the picture with community college. Thanks again guys for all your advice!

Rich