F1200 Series vs. FV in the US SCCA

[Steve Bamford]

I think the F1200 group should do some type of advertising on Apexspeed to promote the series to the large group of US racers just south of us. Here are a couple of key differences I wanted to put out there for everyone & try to get some interest from south of the border.

Last Winter (Jan & March) I was able to compete in a few SCCA races in the southern US & was surprised at the differences between the F1200 events & the SCCA National Events.

Firstly the turn out for my first SCCA National race was only 8 FV's runnning, in our group when I was used to high teens to low twenties FV's running together. The next double national I attended there was only three FV's.

We then ran in a mixed race group with FF's, FM, F500 & I believe a couple of others so it was a shared track. This was the first time I had not run with just a group of FV's together other then test days. There is such a big difference having your own race group to run with, unless you have experienced both you won't totally understand how nice it actualy is.

This was also the first time I ran on slicks compared to our spec treaded tire. Grip was great however after the weekend my tires were showing lots of wear & would not last another weekend. Had never experienced that before as the tires in the F1200 would last the entire season & beyond.

Entrance fees for the event were double what I was used to & track time was limited. The F1200 series has 3 races per weekend compared to only 2 at the Double National. I can't imagine going to a non double National event & only racing once on the weekend.

This past year I was able to run FF's on the same weekends as I ran FV's as they both have separate track time. This was a great benifit to my driving experience & there is no way I could have done this in the SCCA format. My fees to run a second are were only an extra $150.00 for the entire weekend as well. So my entrance fees I was able to running 5 races (3 FV races & 2 FF races) in a weekend for $525.00 compared to running 2 races in the US for $750.00

I am sure there are many other differences between the two series I have not listed but mostly for the good compared to what I have seen in the SCCA.

I would suggest that many in the Northeast could travel up to Mosport for a few events & the tow is probably shorter then some of the tracks you haul to already. You will not be dissappointed.

[nbrigido]

I have no idea what a set of Vee Slicks cost, but can almost bet the 4 slicks will be more tham 4 of our spec tires (and no need for rain tires).

Again, thier are many people that would help out with specs, border, and general information.

If memory serves me Al Spadin came up from PA for a couple of race weekends?

Having our own track time is SPECIAL

To Mosport it is;

3 Hours From Buffalo
4.5 From Rochester
5.5 From Detroit
6 From Cleveland
if you really want 20 hours from Jacksonville

[Amon]

BamBam,

I agree with you on the # of heat cycles the remain competitive, however don't
judge our entry fee's entirely on Nationals. We had a Quad regional several weeks
ago at Nelson Ledges which gave us four 13 lap races during the weekend and it
attracted 9 vee's to it. In fact, Guy Bellingham made the trip down for the weekend
from the Great White North and we got 100+ miles of actual racing over two days,
plus two qualifying sessions for $400. A typical double regional runs around $300-
$350 for the weekend for races at M-O, beaverun, and Nelson etc...I wish we could
all switch to the Hoosier R60's such as the FST gang run on a regional basis only,
which would give us 20+ heat cycles and solve that problem.

Mark

[karmaboy]

If memory serves me Al Spadin came up from PA for a couple of race weekends?

If Al is any measure of the quality type folks in the US, then you are all welcome, and I will personally introduce you to some of the amazing beer that is available here in Ontario.

[nbrigido]

Hopefully after the race

[Mark Filip]

Firstly the turn out for my first SCCA National race was only 8 FV's runnning, in our group when I was used to high teens to low twenties FV's running together. The next double national I attended there was only three FV's.

Dont take this the wrong way because I think the F1200 series seems like a great series but How many total F1200 cars are there? How many regions do F1200 run in? What are the run outs in ea. region? I know you did not race in my Region of the SCCA because we did not have less than 16 cars and as many as 24 cars this past year.

Entrance fees for the event were double what I was used to & track time was limited. The F1200 series has 3 races per weekend compared to only 2 at the Double National. I can't imagine going to a non double National event & only racing once on the weekend.

Again every region is run different. NER Region for the most part for a single event we run 1 practice/quali saturday morning which sets the race line up on saturday afternoon. Saturdays race sets the grid for another race sunday morning and that sets a race for sunday afternoon. This is the way I believe every weekend accept 1 was run last year at NHMS.

We then ran in a mixed race group with FF's, FM, F500 & I believe a couple of others so it was a shared track. This was the first time I had not run with just a group of FV's together other then test days. There is such a big difference having your own race group to run with, unless you have experienced both you won't totally understand how nice it actualy is.

Because our region has the numbers we run alone with sometimes 1 F500 that is slower than 75% of the Vees so he is not a issue most of the time.


It comes down to what region and where you want to run.


On another note I would love to run in the F1200 series. I have run other cars at Mosport and Tremblant in the past and absolutly loved the tracks and think racing my Vee there would be a blast.

other than tires, wheels and set up what else do you guys do different from the
SCCA rules?



Mark

[Steve Bamford]

Dont take this the wrong way because I think the F1200 series seems like a great series but How many total F1200 cars are there? How many regions do F1200 run in? What are the run outs in ea. region? I know you did not race in my Region of the SCCA because we did not have less than 16 cars and as many as 24 cars this past year.

- We have about 25 cars in the F1200 maybe a few more. The F1200 is just in one region here in Ontario that I am aware of. I have not seen that many in any of the southern regions I raced in. I did not race FV in the Northeast US as our series is running at the same time here & any of the race info I have seen only showed a few cars racing in events. Maybe regionals are better attended then the National races however I haven't seen the type of numbers you listed.


Again every region is run different. NER Region for the most part for a single event we run 1 practice/quali saturday morning which sets the race line up on saturday afternoon. Saturdays race sets the grid for another race sunday morning and that sets a race for sunday afternoon. This is the way I believe every weekend accept 1 was run last year at NHMS.

- Seems to be in your region you run the same type of schedule we do with the last race being the trophy race.



Because our region has the numbers we run alone with sometimes 1 F500 that is slower than 75% of the Vees so he is not a issue most of the time.

- Way more enjoyable racing in your own group then with mixed classes.


It comes down to what region and where you want to run.

- I don't know any other regions that have the turn out you listed so sounds like a great region.


On another note I would love to run in the F1200 series. I have run other cars at Mosport and Tremblant in the past and absolutly loved the tracks and think racing my Vee there would be a blast.

- Mostport is where the majority of our races are held, a couple of other great tracks are used throughout the year usually as well.

other than tires, wheels and set up what else do you guys do different from the
SCCA rules?

- I think if anyone from the US wanted to come up I could arrange to rent them a set of tires & rims for the weekend so you don't have to purchase them outright. I am not concerned about wear as we get easily longer then a season out of them.

- The other difference is the inlet manifold is the most significant. The swelled manifolds are not legal in F1200. I am sure we could help resolve this as well for anyone wanting to race with us.






Mark

- Sorry my answers are mixed in above as I messed up on responding.

Steve

[AVR_Shane]

Steve is correct in everything about running here.
As far as staying legal to come up to try out f1200, AVR would gladly provide a set of wheels/tires for thr weekend. Same thing goes for a manifold if you do not have a f1200 legal intake

[Mark Filip]

Steve is correct in everything about running here.
As far as staying legal to come up to try out f1200, AVR would gladly provide a set of wheels/tires for thr weekend. Same thing goes for a manifold if you do not have a f1200 legal intake

Yes but you need to remember which is what i pointed out the size of F1200 is the size of 1 region in SCCA maybe bigger than some but smaller than others. Just In the NER region if everyone showed up we would have well over 40 cars thats just 1 region and grant it NER is a very healthy Vee Region.

Back in the late 90s when I was going to Canada 4 times a year to race and once a year for the F1 Race crossing the border was no big deal. How is it now trying to tow a car and gear?

So what about weight up there? We are 1025 well most of the Vees are not me!

What does a set of used wheels cost?
what is the diameter of the tires? will our cars need to be raised or lowered to run the F1200 package?

[Amon]

Steve,

I have three tracks within 90 miles of my home, so I have little need to go
far to race, especially at 10-12 miles per gallon towing etc.

Mid-Ohio: 60 miles away
Nelson: 65 miles away
Beaverun: 90 miles away

* I do plan to run at the Glen at some point next year, either at a National or
Regional, but it will be the first time I've gone far from home to race in many
years. You have to understand that it costs close to an entry fee in gas $$$ to tow long distances and I won't do that on a consistant basis.

Mark

[G.B.]

Let me pose this question:

How many F1200 drivers have raced in USA, if not, why not?

I think your answer will explain why so few US drivers venture up to Mosport.

A couple of years ago the New York region ran a National at Mosport, but a poor entry, killed it.

Guy.

[Steve Bamford]

Steve,

I have three tracks within 90 miles of my home, so I have little need to go
far to race, especially at 10-12 miles per gallon towing etc.

Mid-Ohio: 60 miles away
Nelson: 65 miles away
Beaverun: 90 miles away

* I do plan to run at the Glen at some point next year, either at a National or
Regional, but it will be the first time I've gone far from home to race. You
have to understand that it costs close to an entry fee in gas $$$ to tow
long distances and I won't due that on a consistant basis.

Mark

I have run Mid-Ohio last year & it is a great track, Nelson is about 4 hours approx from us & we might do some events there if we have the chance. Mosport is an incredible track to run for those who haven't run it before. Currently the facility is being upgraded as well which will make things even nicer.

Agreed towing is a large cost & that maybe a prohibiting factor for some. All depends on the individual & this is just an oppertunity to let people know about our series.

[Steve Bamford]

Let me pose this question:

How many F1200 drivers have raced in USA, if not, why not?

I think your answer will explain why so few US drivers venture up to Mosport.

A couple of years ago the New York region ran a National at Mosport, but a poor entry, killed it.

Guy.

You & I have both raced in the USA Guy & obviously many others. It was not difficult for us to race there, just as it wouldn't be difficult for a SCCA racer to run here.

This is not for everyone but there are many that may not know about the series north of the border & this is a good way to let them know of the option available.

[Steve Bamford]

Back in the late 90s when I was going to Canada 4 times a year to race and once a year for the F1 Race crossing the border was no big deal. How is it now trying to tow a car and gear?

So what about weight up there? We are 1025 well most of the Vees are not me!

What does a set of used wheels cost?
what is the diameter of the tires? will our cars need to be raised or lowered to run the F1200 package?

It is easy to cross the border, have done it many times. Always good to have the info for the races you are going to with you.

Weights mins are 1075, our tires and rims are slightly heavier so that makes up most of the difference.

Not sure of the price of the tires exactly so I will let Shane or Guy answer that.

[Amon]

Steve,

I'm not arguing with you guys about your tracks. I'm good friends with Al Spadin
and he's spoken highly of your tracks and the competition up there. But until the
economy turns around down here in the States, I have to keep my budget in check
and long tows don't currently make any sense, especially with the previously
mentioned tracks so close to home.

Mark

Protoform P-2 #17

[Steve Bamford]

Steve,

I'm not arguing with you guys about your tracks. I'm good friends with Al Spadin
and he's spoken highly of your tracks and the competition up there. But until the
economy turns around down here in the States, I have to keep my budget in check
and long tows don't currently make any sense, especially with the previously
mentioned tracks so close to home.

Mark

Protoform P-2 #17

Mark, I totally agree with you based on your own situation. This won't make sense for everyone, but for some it does & that is was I was trying to point out.

[Mark Filip]

It is easy to cross the border, have done it many times. Always good to have the info for the races you are going to with you.

Weights mins are 1075, our tires and rims are slightly heavier so that makes up most of the difference.

Not sure of the price of the tires exactly so I will let Shane or Guy answer that.

so seeing how I'm at 1120 can I keep the slicks on and I don't have the most aero car for Mosport either but I do like that track

Do you happen to know the diameter of the tires so we can estimate if the ride height will change?

[hojof1]

Leaving the economics/costs out of the equation if we look at the way SCCA (regionals, nationals, need to qualify for runoff) is setup and how things are set up here in FTDA Ontario (1 championship, 1 region, no runoff) I think you will find a lot of reasons why there isn't a lot of cross border vee racing.

Most people cannot afford to run in 2 championships in 2 different regions. So you have to make decisions. If I were a NE SCCA competitor with runoff ambitions I would probably stay in that division to accumulate the most points I could for that season to get the best total result at the end of the year. It made sense for Al Spadin in Penn to run in Ontario. And for Guy Bellingham (ontario) it made sense for him to run in the US. They ran exclusively in one not both. And they each did so for their own reasons. Their goals were different and their wallets supported one choice.

The same would be for FTDA Ontario 1200 drivers as well. I wouldnt want to run 1 or 2 events in Ontario and then run 1 or 2 events in the US. I'd want to do 3 or 4 in either only. I dont think there are too many drivers out there that tour around just to try out a track.

Now it is surely a lot cheaper for a US car to run in Ontario than the other direction there's no question about that especially when Ontario teams are offering the equipment up to our US friends, which is fantastic. When I decided to get back into a vee I decided to get a SCCA car so I could have the option if i so chose to run US events. My old car would have cost me too much to make it compliant and competitive.

I think the only way we would be able to generate consistent cross border racing is if we shared the exact same rules entirely and had dual points eligible races for NEDIV and FTDA at mosport and the glen. Which is not likely to happen.

However, I think the best selling feature to the US drivers about running up here in Ontario is the simplicity of the series setup.

There is only 1 championship in this 1 large region.
We run at 3 different race tracks. which are vastly different
We have our own races no shared groups.
We consistently have large fields - minimum 15 cars.
A very tight competitive group

If you are not getting this in your current local regional/national program, take a look. now if the cost are relatively equal for you, we'd love to have you join us.

I would not want us to engage in which side is better or which side lacks. All the best.

[hojof1]

your ride would change about 1/4-1/2 inch i'd say, Guy or Greg would be able to confirm.

we have drivers that scale at 1100 and are at the front. 1120 might hold you back a little

[Steve Bamford]

your ride would change about 1/4-1/2 inch i'd say, Guy or Greg would be able to confirm.

we have drivers that scale at 1100 and are at the front. 1120 might hold you back a little

1120 you would be fine.

I finished within a second or two of the winner (no cautions) when I had to run my Blue Mysterian which was 1140 or 1150 lbs. Just make sure you stay in the draft & you are fine. There was about 5 or 6 of us within a second or two of first in that event I believe.

[G.B.]

You & I have both raced in the USA Guy & obviously many others.

Not really, thats my point.

In recent history it is only you, I and Randy Smith who have raced north and south of the border.

Al Spadin and Gary Kittel, have crossed the other way and run in F1200.

[problemchild]

The difference in the weight limit is relative to the difference in the weights of the tire packages. You will be no more or no less competitive from a weight perspective on F1200 tires than FV tires.

Rear ride height will be similiar. Front would be higher.

[AVR_Shane]

Let me pose this question:

How many F1200 drivers have raced in USA, if not, why not?

I think your answer will explain why so few US drivers venture up to Mosport.

A couple of years ago the New York region ran a National at Mosport, but a poor entry, killed it.

Guy.

Guy, to be perfectly honest, the three biggest reasons why i havent ventured into the states are cost of US tires, requirement of fire bottle (old car didnt have one), and low car counts.

I have offered wheels and tires for the weekend for someone to come up. If you want to buy them you could get new wheels and tires for approx $1000, probably $600ish used. Fire bottle obviously not an issue to come north, and we have the car counts!

In my mind, it is much easier to come north rather than go south. On that note, i would love to do an scca race at some point, its just a matter of when.

[G.B.]

Shane your offer of tires, is excellent, I really hope your offer is taken up.

But the problem as I see it is crossing the Border.

A diffrent country, different organising body, different money, different health system.

Need for a passport.
Uncertainty of car compatablity.

Uncertainty of licence compatablty.

Are there any hidden costs? For example,i s membership of BARC or the FTDA necessary?

On the whole we don't cross the border to race.

[AVR_Shane]

Any hidden costs would be the same as you racint in scca. I believe thats you have to be a casc member and a club member (such as barc). If i am wrong please please correct me. Greg would know for sure