New F600 rules proposal

[starkejt]

Oh, what the hell. I'm in. I can't let you guys have an argument without me.

[Wren]

Oh, what the hell. I'm in. I can't let you guys have an argument without me.

I ignored it for a long time, because it's not a class that I have any interest in.

I finally had to speak up for the integrity of the internet freaking out process. I'm for freaking out on the internet, but the first step in that process has to be understanding what is going on. Step two is making sure that you freak out on the person actually responsible. Both of those steps seem to be missing here. Freaking out on the BOD member who took his own time to help people understand what is going on is not productive.

[starkejt]

I actually wrote a letter in support of F600, which may be why it was not approved. I was hoping it would eventually lead to the end of the 2 strokes.

[F five hunj]

I actually wrote a letter in support of F600, which may be why it was not approved. I was hoping it would eventually lead to the end of the 2 strokes.

Depending on who you ask, it will either lead to the end of two stroke engines, or the end of the world. Please keep writing.

[Jnovak]

Depending on who you ask, it will either lead to the end of two stroke engines, or the end of the world. Please keep writing.

End of the world December 21 2012.

Jay Novak

[reidhazelton]

the first step in that process has to be understanding what is going on. Step two is making sure that you freak out on the person actually responsible.

Wren...I gotta disagree. A good freak out MUST be incoherent and irrational. Those are key. Case and point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc

This is the thread we've been waiting for all winter! Maybe I'll go bring up shifters in the FB forum or the Fit in the FF forum. I sit in a cubicle all day, I need some excitement here!!

Where is Foschi?!

[starkejt]

Where is Foschi?!

I'm not sure what his latest account is. It was Phoenix223, but he was outed.

[reidhazelton]

I'm not sure what his latest account is. It was Phoenix223, but he was outed.

Narcs...

[Jnovak]

This has been fun but we need to start a serious argument on the merits of shock absorbers for F600 as opposed to rubber suspension. (just for fun)

I will start:

I know how to make rubber suspensions work really well. however the dummies outside of F600 or F500 do not have a clue. Will the new guys from outside the class think about F600 if it DOES NOT have shocks?

Thanks ... Jay

PS: We need Foschi in on this discussion.

[rcrmike]

I know how to make rubber suspensions work really well. however the dummies outside of F600 or F500 do not have a clue. Will the new guys from outside the class think about F600 if it DOES NOT have shocks?

Here's my viewpoint as dummy outsider planning on getting in. I'm under the impression this is supposed to be an affordable class. Affordable is the MOST attractive feature! Engine comes second. I don't know anything about how to tune rubber pucks, but if it saves money I'm willing to learn what it takes to make them go. I take it as a challenge! Everything about this racing business is learning new skills to be competitive. The GCR is full of classes, and a good many are different somehow. I'm willing to put in some effort to figure them out, otherwise let's all get Spec Miatas or SRFs. What's the fun in that?

Mike

[tedsimmons2]

I was hoping it would eventually lead to the end of the 2 strokes.

Serious question - what's wrong with 2 strokes? No song (Goodbye Horses) and "tuck" dancing around either or I'll have to sic Precious on you.

[starkejt]

Nothing, they are mildly annoying, though. I was just kidding about that being the reason I wrote a letter in favor of F600.

[tstarke4]

Who is Precious? A picture would help.

[starkejt]

Sigh.

[F five hunj]

Who is Precious? A picture would help.

BBW 4 U

[Jnovak]

Here's my viewpoint as dummy outsider planning on getting in. I'm under the impression this is supposed to be an affordable class. Affordable is the MOST attractive feature! Engine comes second. I don't know anything about how to tune rubber pucks, but if it saves money I'm willing to learn what it takes to make them go. I take it as a challenge! Everything about this racing business is learning new skills to be competitive. The GCR is full of classes, and a good many are different somehow. I'm willing to put in some effort to figure them out, otherwise let's all get Spec Miatas or SRFs. What's the fun in that?

Mike

No question Mike that the rubber suspension is lower cost. Our estimate is that shock would add about $2K to the car cost.

Thanks ... Jay

[Daryl DeArman]

Will the new guys from outside the class think about F600 if it DOES NOT have shocks?

Absofrickenlutely, in fact shocks would make the class much less appealing to me. I don't know squat about making the elastomer puck thingies work, but I'd look forward to the challenge. Further, I believe that absent a spec shock it would be a matter of time before $6000+ worth of shocks would almost be a neccessity to win.

I love two strokes; the sound, the smell the simplicity...just hate the fricken noise they make in a F500 because the rpms stay the same. Heck anything is irritating if the pitch is constant.

[Purple Frog]

Daryl wrote:

Heck anything is irritating if the pitch is constant.

As a chiseled face on the Apexspeed Mount Rantmore Memorial, I must ask, "To whom was he refering?".

[tedsimmons2]

[F five hunj]

Precious

[starkejt]

Oh, wait....

[tedsimmons2]

And I said, "Oh no sir, I must say you're wrong,
I must disagree, Oh no sir, I must say you're wrong,
Won't you listen to me?"

[starkejt]

I sure hope you had to search and didn't have that memorized.

[Brands]

It puts the lotion on its skin.

[Northwind]

I vote no shocks, stick with the rubber pucks. Keep it cheap. There are alot of things to do to tune the rubber bushings. All of them are cheap and effective.

[jim murphy]

I vote no shocks, stick with the rubber pucks. Keep it cheap. There are alot of things to do to tune the rubber bushings. All of them are cheap and effective.

Rubber pucks are the main reason the big car makers have not jumped into this class.

Jim

[Stan Clayton]

For those of you advocating dampers and springs to replace pucks, are you pushing that for all F500 cars, or only the F600 variants?

[Matt King]

I love two strokes; the sound, the smell the simplicity...just hate the fricken noise they make in a F500 because the rpms stay the same. Heck anything is irritating if the pitch is constant.

The problem with F500s is that while they may be two-strokes, they are not cool sounding two-strokes. If you put a TZ750 engine in one with a gearbox, then we can talk about two-strokes.

[DD16]

Yes Wren, you are the arbiter of all things posted ApexSpeed. I bow down before your majesty. Not really but I guess you have to feel good.

Jay, you know how pucks work. Do you have a count as to how many letters or views expressed here or to the CRB/BOD referenced shocks as a positive? Most of us "dummies " can figure out pushrod useable spring rates and wheel rates. How many can do what you did?

Y'all go right on with the course to keep the pucks.

[Wren]

Yes Wren, you are the arbiter of all things posted ApexSpeed.

Doug,

Can I get this added under my name?

[starkejt]

Doug,

Can I get this added under my name?

Go to your user CP, and do it yourself.

[nulrich]

I'd be very interested in designing a low-cost formula car, a car that is on the order of $25k ready to race and that could attract people coming out of karting or looking to race on a budget. Essentially what Formula Ford used to be.

Although I appreciate the FV community, it doesn't interest me for a variety of reasons. F500 doesn't attract me for other reasons, including the size, the sound and the CVT. I know my aversions might not be logical, but I think they are shared by many people, including potential new entrants.

On the other hand, a completely new formula car class is probably the last thing SCCA needs.

I see some potential in F600, but if it ends up being just an engine variant for F500 I'd be much less interested. I'm sure I could eventually make rubber suspension work (I'd probably start by copying Jay!), but I would be much more likely to design a car if it had dampers and coil springs and was more in line with a "typical" formula car. I also feel that the wheelbase needs to be quite a bit longer for safety reasons.

The BoD and CRB have a tough job. I think everyone agrees classes need consolidation if SCCA is not only going to survive, but also attract new participants. Unfortunately, you can't do that without angering some members (and I don't blame them).

Nathan

[starkejt]

I knew you'd figure it out.

[Wren]

I knew you'd figure it out.

Now if only DD16 could figure things out.

[starkejt]

Here's your new avatar:

[Purple Frog]

I still prefer the kinder gentler image:

[starkejt]

What image?

ETA: You fixed it.

[Phil Creighton]

Kidding................................

[tedsimmons2]

I sure hope you had to search and didn't have that memorized.

No, I don’t have those lines memorized. But thanks to your abstruse comment on another thread about tuck dancing and Goodbye Horses I did do a search and found the quoted words. (Great song and I prefer the original Q Lazzarus mix).

Trying to steer the discussion back on track.
Independent of how we got to this point it seems clear the BOD has now indicated the direction they’d like this rule set to take. Mandate from the BOD to the CRB:
1. F600 chassis formula to be the same as F500 with the exception of wheel base and proposed elastomer spring dimensions. Comment: Lengthening the chassis is to allow enough room for a reasonable wheelbase to accommodate the chain drive. Most current F500 chassis are not well suited for a MC engine conversion without this allowance.
2. MC 600cc engines to be restricted in performance to parity with the Rotax 2-stroke engine. Comment: Obtaining MC engine parity is doable, actually done according to some of the dyno test results seen on another forum.
3. Introduced as a Regional class with intent to combine both F600 and F500 into one National class in the near future.

So you know where I’m coming from – I currently own and race a F500 with a 2-stroke engine. I am giving some thought to switching to the MC engine at some point down the road.

The current F500 participants are not enthusiastic about being combined with the F600 class. A number of reasons have been put forth, some with merit but mostly just “if it’s not broken…” attitude. The chief objection is the parity of performance. Engine h.p. can be regulated through the use of Individual Inlet Restrictors (IIR), but the on track performance will be much more difficult to equalize. You must consider the engine/transmission as a package when attempting on track parity. The 6 speed transmission vs. the CVT is not easy to equalize. Not a mechanical engineer so would appreciate any input to clarify the difference. My limited understanding is mechanical efficiencies are very different. As the CVT reaches the upper speed range the transmission efficiency is starting to drop like a stone and the gear box efficiency is fixed. Not sure how that can be fixed.

With respect to item 3 above. I believe the best course of action would be for the F600 to be granted immediate National status for 5 years. If unable to put enough cars on track the class could then be folded back into FS (no additional class created). This will allow direct on track evaluations and adjustments can be made to the IIRs to achieve as much parity as possible. Parity has been claimed by current F600 owners now based on F600 lap times and existing F500 track records. Times have been equal or up to 2 seconds slower depending on which IIR was installed. The 5 year limit will also allow for F600 drivers to get their bitching about being slower out of the way and to lobby the CRB for increases to the IIRs. I don’t think, and rightly so, F600’s will want to remain 2 seconds a lap slower for very long.

I would think Formula F drivers might take an interest in how this all shakes out. Considering a well prepared F500 with a very good driver can equal or beat a Formula F now, is it out of the realm of possibilities the BOD may fold all three into one class?

[starkejt]

Obtuse? WTF?