New F600 rules proposal

[Hardingfv32]

1) I believe the FSAE rear suspension rules are completely open.

2) Wouldn't the solid axle also be cheaper when discussing possible accident damage?

3) Those coming form kart or shifter competition are not going to be bothered by the solid axle.

4) F600 does not have to a perfect design as a transitional car to upper formulas.

We have a shifter we play in. It is going to be hard to keep my kid (driver) in my FV after he sees a F600. Looks like I am going to be learning a new skill set @ the age of 62.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

2) Wouldn't the solid axle also be cheaper when discussing possible accident damage?

Of course it depends on what parts gets wiped out. Wipe both of them out and of course the IRS rear will be more expensive, but all the hits where the IRS damage is limited to everything outside of the outer CV not so much. That same type of hit will likely wipe out most everything attached to that solid axle. I'll take my chances and go with the solid axle.

[Jnovak]

As all of you know the new F600 rules that would make F600 a seperate regional/national class have been posted in the preliminary CRB minutes here:

http://www.scca.com/assets/Prelimina...tes_v2b%20.pdf
and here: http://www.scca.com/assets/Preliminary_December_TB.pdf

The purpose of this post is to make CERTAIN that all of you are aware that this proposal requires your input to be approved. Remember that your previous letters of approval DO NOT COUNT. You must send in a new letter if you want F600 to be a new class next year. This is very important, this class will not happen without your support.
There have been over 1700 views and 3 pages of posts on this forum here at ApexSpeed. Also at the Eformulacarnews F600 forum there has been nearly 2500 views and over 8 pages of posts here: http://formula500.org/viewtopic.php?t=3928&start=0

Please send your well reasoned and well thought out letters at this link: www.crbscca.com and send your letters NOW, they must be received by December 15th (I believe).

Please help make this class happen. It will grow and it will bring new members to the SCCA and open wheel racing.
_________________
Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Marshall Mauney]

The purpose of this post is to make CERTAIN that all of you are aware that this proposal requires your input to be approved. Remember that your previous letters of approval DO NOT COUNT. You must send in a new letter if you want F600 to be a new class next year.

Letter sent:

Letter ID Number: #6687
Title: Support for creation of F600
Class: AS
Request:
I am writing to express my support for creation of the proposed "F600" class. This new class should be approved as quickly as possible. In light of the recent actions taken suspending use of the participation limits, I would also request that it be granted national status.

If T-3 can retain national status, F600 should be there as well.

[jim murphy]

I am hoping that for the spec coil-over shock, a competitive bid process be conducted to determine the best low price choice. All that is needed is a complete list of spec's for bidding.

Also, we are starting up a F600 rental business (based in Atlanta). Here is our partially completed website - www.formula600racing.com
For more videos select the media tab and enjoy - set your volume level on LOUD!!

Jim
Member - F600 Committee

[jim murphy]

For those of you who are posting that you want to build a car from scratch right now
here is one approach.

IMHO:

If I was starting from scratch, I would use the existing F500 dimensions as a starting point, go with a F500 sports car nose for the wider footbox/main frame rails in the cockpit (I am a big driver) and lengthen/widen the chassis and the bodywork to fit my body from the main hoop to the foot pedals. The rest of the additional length would be aft of the MC to enable a direct chain drive from the PTO to the tubular axle w/4 piston caliper and then lengthen the side pods to close up the gap to the rear tires. I would stay with the 10" wheels with 18" tires and use the 2" x 2" rubber pucks & rocker arms, initially. Later, as the coil over shock rules get defined better along with a spec shock being published then I would convert over to them with some major test 'n tuning called for. I probably will not use a swaybar or a dry sump as they are unnecessary. All tubeframe with some stressed aluminum panels and fiberglass bodywork from a F500. Buy the latest year GSXR600, modified harness, reprogrammed ECU, custom coated header/muffler, remote oil cooler/filter, modified oil pan, paddle shifter, all the heat shielding I can fit along with cooling naca ducts. Last, all the data logging/display needed along with the essential warning lights. This is an overview which is not all inclusive.
All of this, ready to race, for under $25K.

Jim

[Jnovak]

I am hoping that for the spec coil-over shock, a competitive bid process be conducted to determine the best low price choice. All that is needed is a complete list of spec's for bidding.

Also, we are starting up a F600 rental business (based in Atlanta). Here is our partially completed website - www.formula600racing.com
For more videos select the media tab and enjoy - set your volume level on LOUD!!

Jim
Member - F600 Committee

For sure we will be working hard to come up with shocks that meet our cost requirements from specific suppliers. We already have 2 companies committed to supply us with top quality single body double adjustables for under $500 retail.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

WRITE LETTERS TO THE CRB

[Jnovak]

Do not forget to send your letters of support for the new F600 proposal to the CRB. It only takes about 5 minutes.

www.crbscca.com

Thanks ... Jay Noval

[4wheeldrift]

Time to start building an F600 with IRS/SPOOL for the eventual and inevitable acceptance in F600. Make it a claiming rule class like MOTO GP has gone to for next year to contain the cost that not even the factory Honda or Yamaha or Ducati can even afford and eventuall resulted in Suzuki pulling out all together from MOTO GP.

[jim murphy]

[quote=4wheeldrift;321165]Time to start building an F600 with IRS/SPOOL for the eventual and inevitable acceptance in F600.

I would not do this.

Jim

[4wheeldrift]

Would a rigid mount no suspension solid rear axle be a viable alternative? It would be like a 600 powered solid axle go kart. Then to tune the rear suspension you would need several axle flex/wall thicknes for tuning . Would the ride qaulity pound your fillings loose? would the tires live for more than a few laps? Are 13" tires allowed or 10"?

[Mark_Silverberg]

I do not believe a suspension would be required. Based upon comments of drivers from F440 circa 1980 i would not advise it.

[Jnovak]

Would a rigid mount no suspension solid rear axle be a viable alternative? It would be like a 600 powered solid axle go kart. Then to tune the rear suspension you would need several axle flex/wall thicknes for tuning . Would the ride qaulity pound your fillings loose? would the tires live for more than a few laps? Are 13" tires allowed or 10"?

Karting type axle mountings would never work at this weight for the car. The very first F440s we rigid an they broke EVERYTHING. I would not go that way at all.

The suspended live axles as per the F600 rules have proven to be very functional in both F600 and F500. They do work.

10" wheels or 13" wheels are allowed, no mixing of 10" & 13" allowed though.

Thanks ... Jay NOvak

[Marty Nygard]

I remember the first solid suspension system F440s from the old days at Brainerd. They would all come in from qualifying and go straight to the welding trailer for chassis repairs. Quite a parade.
It was also fun to look at the paint chips on their helmets from wacking the roll bar every time they went over the drag strip starting pad.
Marty

[Marshall Mauney]

I remember the first solid suspension system F440s from the old days at Brainerd. They would all come in from qualifying and go straight to the welding trailer for chassis repairs.

Reminds me of my old Red Devil at Nelson Ledges......always carried a welding rig to that track.

[Stan Clayton]

Karting type axle mountings would never work at this weight for the car.

Begs to differ!

[problemchild]

Begs to differ!

Cool video!
I was worried the guy might fall out and ruin that nice shirt he was wearing.

[Jnovak]

Begs to differ!

Definitely one of my favorite videos Stan. We used this video at Ford's Vehicle Dynamics Department as the definition of "performance feel".

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[starkejt]

Pretty good, but could use a dash of mullet and an Audi V8.

Bad Mutha Farkas

[Jnovak]

Here is the formal rules proposal for F600 in Fastrack.

http://www.scca.com/assets/11-fastrack-dec-club.pdf

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Stan Clayton]

Pretty good, but could use a dash of mullet and an Audi V8.

Bad Mutha Farkas

Love the mullet, dude!

BTW, is that guy still alive?

[starkejt]

BTW, is that guy still alive?

He was at our last family reunion, but that was almost 6 months ago, so it's anybody's guess.

[lancer360]

One last video. This is the July 4th race at Roebling Road from 2010. The yllow and blue cars are F500's.

1st Half
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFPrYTmwyeI

2nd Half
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvszV_3NcYk

[4wheeldrift]

Does the rule K.6.F eliminate the Yamaha 600 since it uses Drive(Ride) By Wire throttle position?

[Scootin159]

What is the concern with drive by wire? Seems like it would be easier to package, and may lead to difficulty in using new engines which are moving more and more to drive by wire from the factory.

[RussMcB]

Could you set it up so the crew chief on pit wall could keep it floored when the wimpy driver wants to lift?

[Daryl DeArman]

Does the rule K.6.F eliminate the Yamaha 600 since it uses Drive(Ride) By Wire throttle position?

While it would certainly seem that you could not utilize the Drive By Wire (which may or may have not been the intent)feature, I don't see how it wouldn't eliminate the R6 if you could make the stock ECU accept a traditional mechanical throttle.

[4wheeldrift]

Will modifications to the stock ECU be allowed then also? to convert a DBW system to a pure mechanical throttle system. While I am in the ECU I will just tweek the rev limiter a bit... and advance the timing a few degrees here... get rid of the pesky traction control...modify the injector pulse width there....chop the ignition at the max rev so i can just preload the shifter rod and it will automatically change to the next upshift......on and on. It appears that within the very next year or 2 all major 600s will be DBW. If DBW is not allowed then you effectively cut the supplies of engines.

[Daryl DeArman]

I was simply stating one persons' opinion on what the rule means....and I could be exactly wrong or right

[F five hunj]

Will modifications to the stock ECU be allowed then also? to convert a DBW system to a pure mechanical throttle system. While I am in the ECU I will just tweek the rev limiter a bit... and advance the timing a few degrees here... get rid of the pesky traction control...modify the injector pulse width there....chop the ignition at the max rev so i can just preload the shifter rod and it will automatically change to the next upshift......on and on. It appears that within the very next year or 2 all major 600s will be DBW. If DBW is not allowed then you effectively cut the supplies of engines.

Cut the engine supply to only tens, if not hundreds of thousands of engines.....

All kidding aside, I was under the impression that these DBW cars and bikes have fail safe modes built into them that would not allow full throttle in the event of a malfunction with the system.

[4wheeldrift]

Yes i agree I am realy excited to see this class grow and stay a low cost homebuilt class like FB started out as and balooned in to a fiscal free for all. I actually would like to see a $20,000 or so claiming rule like MOTO GP just implemented to contain the spiraling spending spree. That is another subject . I am just trying to throw out a few scenarios or possibiliteis to get them cleared up as quickly as possible so we could possibly make a choice that will fit within the guidelines when the flag drops

[Brands]

The R6 has a traditional throttle cable from the handle bar to the throttle body at which point it becomes an ECU controlled throttle so packaging is just the same as a mechanical set up.

[4wheeldrift]

And then ecu opens the throttle blades, not the driver,? = DBW? legal/illegal?

[Jnovak]

If the modern engines have drive by wire the rule can be ammended or a mechanical control can be added to the engines. I am told that this has been done on all the DBW race bikes.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Brands]

600 race bikes use the DBW. The AMA Daytona Sportbikes (600's) use the 'kit' ECU. I don't see why allowing the stock DBW should be an issue. In fact on the '09 R6 it's a distinct disadvantage as the stock ECU/DBW limits throttle opening to approx 85% for emissions reasons. The race kit ECU does away with that but a piggy back Power Commander type device won't.

[Jnovak]

Thanks for all the input guys, a big help for us. Obviously the rule set is not carved in stone yet and I am certain that the CRB will tidy some issues up both for clarity and effective rules purposes.

Of course the key element in all these discussions is: Will there be an F600 class? That is up to the members of the SCCA and the reality is letters, we need letters of support to the CRB.

In our opinion this class has huge potential. Modern engines screaming engines, fast cars, low costs, sequential shifting, lots of mechanical grip. In short a real drivers class.

Make it happen.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[GBugg]

...Will there be an F600 class? That is up to the members of the SCCA and the reality is letters, we need letters of support to the CRB.
...
Thanks ... Jay Novak

If the excitment over the possibilities of this class translate into letters, the success of this class should be a given. HOWEVER, it is NOT a given until and unless we - the club - tell the CRB it is what we want and will support.

Jay and the committee continue to do a GREAT job pushing this idea and have spent countless hours developing a draft rule set that is an outstanding starting point. All they are asking from us is 5 minutes to type an opinion in a form. They've even provided the link:

www.crbscca.com


The CRB has my letter of support, and the F600 committee has my appreciation!

[Daryl DeArman]

One of the very few times I wished I was a SCCA member...

[Jnovak]

One of the very few times I wished I was a SCCA member...

Then join Daryl. Race F600!!!

Or send the CRB a letter and tell them that you will join if F600 is approved.

www.crbscca.com


Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Daryl DeArman]

Letter sent. (#6738)

I haven't been a SCCA member in 20 years. I don't believe I should have any say in whether this gets approved or not. However, I let them know that F600 is exactly the type of class needed to get me back; low dollar formula car that offers performance and a bit of modern technology.

Now just get it approved and 3 other F600's racing in the SoPac and I'll buy one