Trying to gain Leg room in March 719

[Wayne Lee]

I'm hoping to get some suggestions on the best approach to moving my Pedals as far forward as possible. The Steering Rack looks to be pretty far away from the Bulk Head, and although it doesn't need to move any to move the pivot points of the Pedals an inch and a little more forward and shorten up the throw Rods, it would be great if the Rack could be moved a little forward and up a 1/4" or so if it doesn't affect Bump Steer negetively. I would machine up some offset Mounting Blocks for whatever direction needed using the same holes. Looking down on the Steering Links they do go forward from the Rack to the pick up Points on the Uprights. The March is much less roomy than my Hawke DL12, and in addition to getting the Steering Wheel a little closer to the Dash, I'm going to look into a new Fuel Cell Cover that might be dished out a little if possible or just fit closer to the Fuel Cell. The Cell seems a little loose in it's enclosure and can be moved front to back a little it seems. I'd fit some aluminum side panels to the seat area to support a tiny Bead Seat in and that might gain me a little, but then I'll sit a little more upright in the Car, and this modest Roll Bar extension might not be enough. Is it okay to raise this by replacing it with one (just a slightly taller and wider extension)maybe an inch or so taller without raising any flags? There's not much room under the Dash heighth wise, when I have to pull my feet back to Pedal surfaces.

Sorry about bombing this posting with so many pics, but there only 1.3mb total.

Any help pointing me towards the best approach to get a 6'2" person in the Car would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Wayne Lee
Douglas, MA

[azjc]

Can't tell by your pictures... but what I did in my Reynard was to remove a small horizontal non-structural square tube that the dash and steering shaft mounted on, shorten and moved the dash panel up and made a new vertical mount for the steering shaft. This allows me to slide my butt forward and move my knee's to up - my long legs now fit in a shorter space (legs are bent) and my head moves down low enough to meet the clearance regulation.

[provamo]

move the rack forward of the bulkhead and swap your uprights left for right ??????????

[DB4 Tim]

Wayne your seat insert looks brand new ...is it?

If so where did you get it

[Wayne Lee]

Hi azjc, I can't move my knees up much. The Pedals are adjusted pretty close in as they are. Even if they were flat with the lever it would be a lot better, and I wouldn't have to pull my legs in to get on top of the Pedals. This still wouldn't be as comfortable as I know I can it, so I want to move the base of the pedals forward to start with. I wouldn't want to mess with the original Dash bottom cross brace. I have to get some different shoes too. I wear a sixe 12 and bought some Simpson size 11. They are still too long in the middle where I have empty space and I rub the right diagonal with the top of my shoe when moving from throttle to brake, unless I lean my foot over. I'll have to buy some used shoes on eBay or something and see how short and small I can go. The framework ahead of the Dash cross brace really isn't any higher, so I wouldn't gain much at all. Thanks for your input.

Ho provamo, This would be a real radical approach, and I'm not sure if I understand it exactly. Do you mean move the Rack in front of the forward Bulkhead above the Masters like many other Cars. If so, swapping uprights wouldn't do anything to compensate for steering link hookup. I might just have to extend the Steering link mounting point on the upright as far forward as needed to help the Bump steer and this would slow down the steering making more turns to the wheel. Or did you mean put the rack in front of the Scuttle Bulkhead and make it a rear Steer Car with leading Calipers on the upright. I don't think anything as drastic as either will be neccesary, but I appreciate all ideas. I have some room to play with. I have some Lola Pedals from my old S2 that I think are smaller if i want to experiment with them.

I'll just have to sort out if moving my Rack that little bit closer to the front will do much harm to the Bump Steer. I thought some of the Guru's here could tell by looking at the angle of the Steering link is at to the upright. I see many cars with the links angled back to the upright. As long as the Ackerman and Bump Steer don't get messed up, I'll go for moving it a little while I'm working there.

Tim, the seat Insert is fairly new I believe. It came with the Car, which I've only owned for about a month now. I'll ask the former owner where he bought it.

Thanks,
Wayne
wayne@sportsracer.com

[john f]

Moving the rack forward will remove ackerman, moving backward will add. This assumes no changes to the steering arm position. It is hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks as if you have a slight amount of ackerman right now. Will a slight loss make any diff? Who knows, it might help.
You could look at swapping spindles side for side and converting to a rear steer, with the rack up high and new steering arms. This would also require a wider spacing of the inner pivots to achieve good bump-steer numbers.
How much length do you need to gain? It might sound nuts, but at the bulkhead behind the front arms, could you just section the frame and add so many inches of length? It might not be as hard as you think, and it would allow you to lay down some and clear the roll bar at the same time. Just a thought.

john f

[Wayne Lee]

Hi John,

I think a couple inches would get me in the comfort zone. I wouldn't, nor could I really open up any space up front, The bodywork drops off the front of the Bulkhead pretty sharply to vent off the Radiator. I think moving the Rack almost up against the Bulkhead will give me some extra room for Pedal travel when all is closer. Mostly the Clutch which will hit the Rack when fully depressed now. I can get rid of the barrel bushing for adjustment bolt and jam nut, off the back of the Pedals too and just have them flush with their lever arms. All this and a bead seat pushed into the Fuel Cell cover should be all I need.

I appreciate the response!

Cheers,
Wayne

[Charles Warner]

I would be careful about "pushing into" the fuel cell area. The tank needs room to expand when full of fuel and temperatures get hot.

[Rick Kirchner]

are you actually trying to get more legroom or are you trying to get farther down in the car for rollbar height/cg?

[Wayne Lee]

Hi Charles,

I especially appreciate you piping in here. I understand what you picked up on completely. Bad choice of words "pushing in" in my description of the one plan. I also did say I detected some fore and aft play with the bladder itself. I wouldn't need much of a dimple on the lower section of the wedge to accomplish the slight upright driver position that I would need if the Pedal re-positioning didn't get me seated acceptably. There isn't much Cell volume loss down bottom on the wedge, especially since I don't think it would press much against it, and it has a 5+ gal. cell, well vented, and unfortunately the last Vintage event I attended was scheduled for 10 laps (LRP) but got shortened to 8 laps for some Groups (saturday Group 4 (Club Fords, Vintage Fords, FJ) I don't think my new Cell cover approach would have any affect other than securing the Cell a little better in place. I can only hope for the oportunity to one day use more than 3 1/2 gallons of fuel in one session.

Regards,
Wayne

[Wayne Lee]

Hi Rick,

Getting more legroom will accomplish both. If the Pedal fix does the trick, I'm sure the roll Bar heigth is fine. If it came to sitting more upright in the Car, then the Hoop could become an issue. Either way, I'm approaching it from both ends, and when I'm sitting in the Bead Seat mould late at night for an hour or so, if I didn't need the extra material behind my butt, so be it. The last thing I'm worried about is the CG factor, I'm 6'2" 220 pounds, if I can get comfortable in the Car, I'll be happy.

Thanks,
Wayne

[Jim Johnson]

Wayne,

I just went out in the shop to look at my March 729 to see what differences there were between our two cars.

First off, the rack acts as a stop for the clutch pedal. You are right in that it will need to be moved to in order to move the pedal assemblies forward.

It appears that my rack is different than yours and it is also mounted differently. At my front bulkhead, there are two diagonal braces that angle up from the bottom corners to the top center with webs that the rack mounts to via machined blocks. It appears that you could probably gain an inch or so of forward movement of the rack by shortening the blocks. This would probably alter the ackerman, and that would be another issue in its own right.

As for my seat, I too have a wedge shaped cell behind me. I used a simple flat aluminum sheet to form a rudimentry seat that attaches to the seat adjustment tabs at the top of the frame and covers up the cell. I also have the fiberglass inner panels that seal up the cockpit sides, and installed a custom made upholstered and padded seat to cover it all. I find the car very comfortable. The trick is that I'm 5' 9". Don't think it would be quite so great a fit if I was your size.

Curtis Jacobson spent quite a bit of time at the July SOVREN Historics race weekend taking pictures of my March. He should be posting them shortly on his website, www.britishracecar.com. Take a look at these shots and compare them with what you have. There might be some differences that you could use.

Good luck.

Jim

[Wayne Lee]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be looking forward to seeing Curtis' pictures of your Car. He's done a great job with the other Car's he's featured. I know I can gain some length in the Cockpit by playing with the Pedals, even without moving the Rack if necessary. It does seem to me that the Rack is very inboard inside the Bulkhead. As for the Clutch lever itself, a lot of clearance could be gained by removing all the bulk off the backside of the Pedal. There's the barrel bushing type setup to wind the Pedal plates all the way forward, which they are, and more. There may be other differences between the 71 and your 72 Car as well since Mitchell finished the 729's up at his shop. I'll be anxiously awaiting your Car being featured in one of his Articles. I've seen a lot of great youtube footage of your Car from behind from the fellow with the 51. It looks like you're behind the BRP 1.5 V8 Formula 1 Car that Curtis did a write up on, which appears to slow down the train a bit in the tighter stuff actually. At least it sounds different than any Kent I've ever heard.

I'm sure you would of managed if you were an inch or 2 taller. My extra heigth isn't all from the waist down I don't suspect.

Cheers,
Wayne