Did they do compression tests? Dimension checks (wings, floors, etc.)?
Just asking.....
Did they do compression tests? Dimension checks (wings, floors, etc.)?
Just asking.....
Later in the week Jake Latham broke a brand new Carillo rod. George doesn't think there is a problem with rod bolts on GSXR engines. Brandon's was the first unexplained rod breakage that George had ever seen, Jake's was the second.Originally Posted by RobLav
These things are just going to blow up sometimes. It is not neccesarily a reflection on car setup, prep, driver or anything else.
Last year they did compression tests on the engine so I assume they did that again this year. I saw them pulling covers and borescoping the rest of it. I would assume that they checked counter-balance shaft and for stock rods. I know they checked for stock pistons. I don't know if they checked head thickness or not.
We were in impound every day. They never put a car up and checked the 1" rule. I never saw them put a tape measure on a wing.
They did look at our side pods and floors in Q4. They did not put the car up in the air but looked under the car with a flashlight etc. I was asked a couple of questions but it is obvious from a visual inspection that our car meets the rules. They did not say that they just let us go.
At the Cat National they actually measured our car with tools to measure the wing positions relative to the axle centerlines (they have a really neat tool to do this) They also tape measured the wing widths and difusser width.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
But Wren, the Carrillo rod was installed on a DSR engine with quite a bit more HP. And not everyone runs the Suzuki. I know I will forever lose this argument, but I will never return to FB in my dual homologated car until I can install better conrods and bolts.
I agree with you. You should be able to switch certain agreed upon internals that offer zero performance advantage but much greater reliability. There are a few things that can be done that fit that bill.
Personally I think if they engine rules aren't open, which I don't they will ever be and probably better off it should go the route of sealed gsxr with these reliable aftermarket internals (another pipe dream)
This idea is not out of the realm of the possible, as there is precedence in both FB and FC. Remember that in FB originally one had to use the OEM timing chain tensioner, but then an aftermarket one was approved. In FC aftermarket rods are permitted so long as they are steel, meet or exceed the minimum weight and retain the same major dimensions as the OEM pieces. This was changed from the original requirement to use the stock Ford pieces for precisely the reasons you articulate.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Now this one I would go with. If the club ruled in favor of aftermarket rods and bolts, we would go along with that to keep the rules in check. But, to make it advantageous for drivers to run in both club and Pro with the same car, we wouldn't go that route alone.
Stronger v performance
I have no interest in this discussion other than curiosity but would offer that in my view if a part is stronger/more reliable then that in itself is a performance advantage over the original part.
SteveO
Precedence in F500 as well. Slight overbored pistons are allowed in the 494 so the cylinders can be honed, rather than having to replace the sleeves with a rebuild to keep costs down. Similar situation. I'd be all for strengthened parts being legal.
When I say performance advantage I'm referring to HP gains. But I kinda understand what you mean......
Actually I think it goes farther than that. While my references are from other formula car classes with outdated motors, I have seen a tremendous increase in engine performance due IMO to uprated / stronger parts that can withstand higher engine revolutions more safely.
SteveO
Steve, I understand your comment, but you are referring to outdated engines. These FB engines are relatively current in street performance and reasonably highly stressed already. The problem I see is that they are designed to run approximately 600 lbs of bike and rider on the street with much less tire. We stick them in 1000lb cars with a ton more grip and at full throttle at least 80% of the time.
This class has always been grassroots from the start. Our philosophy in creating the ruleset was to leave the rules open enough to allow as many cars in order to build the numbers (hence the body width rule, etc). What is going on now will ensure the demise of FB as a National class. By adding 40 lbs, that will effectively reduce the cars entered.
Maybe it is time again for those of us in the class to hammer out what it is we want, rather than allow others to make the decisions. Perhaps it is time again to create another FB rules committee to refine and clarify the rules, now that we have run a few years. If so, the original philosophy must remain the same - to provide an opportunity to maintain and grow.
These engines rev so high already that stronger internal parts aren't going to withstand constant over revving all that much either, besides my experience with the GSXR is that it stops producing HP 500-750 rpms below redline, so over revving them does nothing but slow you down and blow your sh*t up. The stronger parts are more for protection in the event of mistaken over revs.
we run the suzuki with dry sump, and run several races, and never blow up. several wet sump guys experience the same result. most stock suzuki blow ups are random. even the carrillos broke randomly at the runoffs. if you want an engine that rarely fails, run the 06-10 zx10r. the west imsa lites cars rarely blow an engine, and in my experience, that engine is the most reliable period. dont want that engine due to power? well run the more powerful engine at your own risk. shift that gsxr at 12k and never go over 12.5k, and it will live forever. i have seen it many times. you will also likely see an increase in top speed on the straight as wellallowing aftermarket parts, is just another step towards open rules. engines like the bmw get a bad rap for breaking rods, allow them aftermarket, and there is your performance advantage. the jist of it is, the best engine is the one with best power to reliability ratio. there really were not many engine failures in FB, and brandons was clearly random. dont let one engine failure at the runoffs determine a need for a rule change, and dont let whats happening in dsr influence what FB is doing
Well put Jesse. 12K is the right number for longevity. Going above 12.5 is like walking through a mine field...sometimes you make it, but it only takes once to fail. As far as the west lites cars, Alan Wilzig blew up 2 engines this season already, so even those can have problems (however his were due to overheating issues). As with any engine in any class, all you need to do is be good to it and keep it within the safe parameters. Engines fail in every class when you push them to their limits, its just a reality.we run the suzuki with dry sump, and run several races, and never blow up. several wet sump guys experience the same result. most stock suzuki blow ups are random. even the carrillos broke randomly at the runoffs. if you want an engine that rarely fails, run the 06-10 zx10r. the west imsa lites cars rarely blow an engine, and in my experience, that engine is the most reliable period. dont want that engine due to power? well run the more powerful engine at your own risk. shift that gsxr at 12k and never go over 12.5k, and it will live forever. i have seen it many times. you will also likely see an increase in top speed on the straight as well
This pretty much is what FV did many years ago - they banded together and told the CRB and BoD "hands off - we''ll sort our class ourselves" - and with few exceptions, the Club has abided by that philosophy. You might want to talk to Bob Lybarger as to how to apporach the Club with that thought (long-time FV guy and now BoD member).
Fb does indeed have some areas that need to be reworked - too much carryover of the same wording from FC, which needed reworking for 20 years or so. Best to fix it now before some "genius" decided to push the envelope way beyond what is intended and understood by the current builders ( shades of the current controversy in FC!).
no joke, i blew the engine in my lawnmower spring of 2010 because i forgot to check the oil from sitting all winter, and she let go while mowing the ditch, so on an angle.... should we suggest that toro put carrilo rods and dry sumps on my mower so i can finish my yard without worry? come on the engines are fine. the vast majority are running the engines correctly and doing there job of checking oil levels and watching the revs and they live. do we really need to have this conversation??? really???
What a pile of stupid horse***t!
please explain.... we all know the story of you installing an engine that clearly had been apart, and should have replaced the rod bolts, but chose not to, yada yada yada... the VAST majority of guys running stock suzuki gsxr 1000s are having plenty good luck. over here on the west coast, we can go several race events with nobody in the field blowing an engine. we have blown one engine in rod rices stohr, and it was a crank shaft snapping in half for no apparent reason, rods still spun around just fine. new rods or bolt would not have saved that one engine. 3 years and one bazzar failure, i will take it. do yourself a favor. buy an engine, send it to your favorite engine builder, and have them tear it down and put it back together correctly. it will live a long time. we buy motors, send them to GDRE, and $4500 later we have great, long lasting motors, much cheaper then any FC engine purchase, rebuild, and then you have the gear box. i nor anyone else will twist your arm back into FB, you made a choice, and frankly it was not good...
oh, and the occasional blow up we do see is usually valve droppage... have not seen a broken, or discolored rod at a local race in some time now, not even dsr
Speedcasttv.com F1000 race is up
Finally got to see the race this morning.
At the top 3 interviews Lucian said his wheel was broken from our contact in T1.
Anyone know what the extent of the damage was?
My car had about an inch and a half or two of left front toe in from a bent toe link, but I'm pretty sure that was the extent of my damage, I'll be diggin' in tonight in my preperation for the ARRC in one month's time.
Great drive from the Top 3, and TREMENDOUS Primal Scream Therapy from Novak!
Back to the post above: Jesse nailed it! I've been running his dry sump since my car was born, and the two failures I had in almost twenty races were self inflicted:
Bleed line from rad came off and pumped out almost all the water last year at Homestead. Car started right up after topping up the water, and finished the weekend, but damage was done. It expired the next week at Sebring test day...
These engines have ZERO tolerance for even ONE overheat episode. If you overheat it severely, pull the engine so you have something that might be able to be rebuilt. It will probably warp the head, so that will need to be replaced.
The other failure was at VIR the same year and a brand new freshened engine had a piston wristpin circlip pop out on the second lap, scored the cylinder wall, and finally made it's way to the bottom end, tearing s**t up all the way.
Again, not oil related.
The last two engines I have run went 8 complete race weekends, inclusive of test days with nothing more than oil and filter changes every other race. No valve adjustments were needed - which in and of itself is more incredible to me than the fact that they can go 8 weekends!
The fresh engine I just put in for the Runoffs took me almost two hours to get the engine oil pump to prime. I had just switched from my BRD drysump setup to a Moon Super Cycle wet sump pan in the interest of finally getting down, or I should say a bunch closer to minimum weight. I ended up having to loosen the oil filter and continue cranking until it started to spew there. I buttoned it all up and then OP finally registered on the dash. I also loosen the -3 line going to the OP sending unit and let it bleed out.
IF you can put the pan on the engine during assembly BEFORE the clutch goes on you'll be able to put some oil into the pan and turn the oil pump gear by hand and it will pretty easilly prime, THEN install the clutch, and button up your pre-primed engine.
The problem seems to come from getting an already assembled engine, THEN having to put on your dry or wet pan. At least w/ a dry sump system, spinning the engine over (w/ crank trigger wire disconnected/no sparky) will have the scavenge pump going to town, filling the cooler, AND having a 5 quart or so supply in the oil tank supplying the engine oil pump.
The Moon pan worked flawlessly at the RO's; no pressure drops under braking, no red lights flashing - It's all good.
I salute Jesse and Loshak for the work they have done in ensuring that these engines can live at the super stupid pace we put them through, AND openly sharing the information they have gleaned so that these bike engine'd classes will continue to grow
Failure to heed what is pretty much common knowledge now in regard to making these things last is not a good recipe.
From the DSR/CSR/FB Party
Mike D rockin' the grill!
That may be the only time during the weekend that I was not bonding or repairing someones car. If I remember correctly there were some of Jacek's parts in the trailer being worked on between flippin the ribs.
Damn good looking ribs!!!!
Mike is an artist at both composite work and cooking too!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
Sorry to revive an old thread but I just had to first say thanks for Coop's comments and using one of my Moon Super Cycle pans. I've been using my pan design for years and it works. I won't brag, it's just facts. I haven't seen Jesse's pan, but have had experience working with Jesse on his drysump system, I'm sure his wetsump pan is great as well. All the latest generation pan's out there are leagues ahead of the original pans. Leagues, miles, light years. Regardless of rods.
Second, I had to chime in on rods. There are so many variables, clearances, valve clearance settings (valve to piston, valve lash), oil pumps new vs reused, bearing clearances, how many times rod bolts are reused and.... Most importantly the tune of the ecu, ignition timing, A/F ratio and what fuel you use.
Point is, an aftermarket rod isn't the end-all to failures. Carrillo's break too. They are also heavier. Moon has built several DSR motors using stock rods and pistons, using his build specs and his cams, resulting in very impressive power figures for the budget minded and have been very reliable. I expect his engines to be just as valuable in FB as they are in DSR. As for RPM... 13K is safe IMHO with a proper Moon tune, Moon build and Moon exhaust in FB. It's all I have experience with lately, so it's all I can comment on.
RobLav, I strongly urge you to give one a try or at least call me so we can chat. I feel your pain, but you're missing out racing with a great group of guys in a very cool and ever growing class. I assure you a reliable package. Let me help. That goes for anyone.
The engine failures at the R/O's in DSR where the highest we've seen in years as many were trying new things and pushing thier cars to higher limits than ever before. And actually, Lee blew up the most, but obviously working with a very potent package. R&D isn't cheap, but can be very rewarding in the end. Im sure he and Factory 48 will figure it out. All other engine failures were GDRE also pushing the limits. I was the only Moon motor that let go. And this was the motor we have been running at close to 14K every session, every weekend since putting it in for the June Sprints. 5 race weekends were on that motor and it was a valve failure. She was a beast... May she rest in peace.
But the best truth was posted earlier. Engines will fail in any class, in any configuration. Its racing. Us racers will break them, racing breaks them.
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
Jesse - now that I found the error of my ways and have spent the money to enter the F1KCS with a brand spankin' new engine, can you finish the design of the Kawi oil system? I promise to be more careful with my future race engines!
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