Funny, Rennie! -- love it.
Saint Reagan (peace be upon him)
Funny, Rennie! -- love it.
It's no longer this simple, as the old email addy for the CRB now bounces back with a "You must use the CRB Letter Submission Form link.", and goes on to say that your email will not be delivered to them as sent. Therefore, use your favorite word processing program to draft the letter, then post it to bod@scca.com so the BoD gets a copy, then copy-pasta it into the link above so the CRB gets it, too. It's a little extra work on your part, but it will ensure the BoD gets its copy.Originally Posted by Rennie Clayton
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
At least you can't say the Pro Series are going to hurt the national numbers. With decisions like this by the CRB, they're killing it themselves.
What do you think, guys, does this image capture the thread's sentiment perfectly?
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Been wondering who would be the first to post that pic.
Qualifications?
How about:
Can't believe I forgot that one Stan! You win this one!
/end thread
Runoffs Meeting
OK I was at the same meeting as Wren and I think the BOD members there (most were) got the message and Bob Dowie and the CRB certainly agreed to revisit the issue. I've thought since this was introduced that it was too late to change the rule after competitors had invested money in the systems and probably was instrumental in asking to revisit a total ban.
While 40lbs is probably the wrong amount, there has always been a tradition (right or wrong) to penalize relatively expensive innovations that become 'must haves' whether by performance or perception. Sequential gearboxes over H pattern, dog boxes in many classes etc. Everybody upgrades, spends money and we end up a little lighter in the pocket at the status quo. When injection hit FA with a 25lb penalty for example it was a toss up between the two as far as performance.
We do not see the CRB's input from competitors, only their recommendations to us - this has its plus points and negatives. No matter what you think of the CRB individually or collectively, you really don't want the BOD to micromanage the rules. We are elected to oversee the Club as a whole and few on the BOD have a technical background. You also have to remember that maybe 3 or 4 of our BOD members may look at this forum so much of the rhetoric hits dead air - as Stan says actually write a letter to the CRB and cc the BOD if its really important to you. Most are content to rant here on the forum (and those for other categories) but rarely write a letter.
Phil Creighton
Area 12
I have read this several times, and am not sure exactly what type of shifter is the problem.
Is it any device that has an ignition interrupt (mechanical shifter with ignition cut out)
or
Just the computer / solenoid driven type ones that shift up and down?
It would seem that these are significantly different units, both in terms of cost and performance.
I agree with Phil that the CRB is starting to re-evaluate the 40 pound number. The other members are also getting smarter and starting to understand more about the shifters and how they are used. The CRB was way too hung up on the downshift rejection feature and they are finally starting to understand that it is not being used. The other CRB members are getting more educated on the whole thing and not relying on one CRB member for their information. In the process they are starting to understand that this whole thing has been focused on one competitor that a CRB member has a vendetta against and that is making some of them uncomfortable.
I have already sent letters to the BOD and CRB. I will be revising them and resending them when I get back home. I will also be writing a series of 6 or 7 new letters pointing out different things that are done for an advantage in FB that cost substantially more than a geartronics to implement and are worth more of an advantage. If there is any integrity in the process, then the CRB will work to implement similar penalties for these features.
Great, here comes the 1200 lb. penalty for a Citation chassis.
I plan to propose a penalty for anyone with more runoffs wins than Brandon, anyone who weighs 20 pounds more than Brandon, anyone without all of their fingers, and anyone who used to have an awesome mustache but shaved it off because they would have to wear a balaclava. 40 pounds each.
Like a full on porn stache?
https://picasaweb.google.com/starkej...eat=directlink
And 60 pounds for anyone who has either of their blood pressure numbers over 225 at rest.
October Fastrack published today.
Under "No Action Required":
FORMULA
FB
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]1. (Multiple) 40lb penalty for assisted shifters [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Thank you for your letters. The CRB will request the BoD approve the 40 lb penalty for electronically assisted shift systems. [/FONT][/FONT]
wonder if you'll be able to use all of the systems features now
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
How is "assisted" defined?
Is an ignition cut "assisted"
Yes.
@Fred:
All gear changes must be initiated by the driver. Only shift mechanisms that are completely mechanical are permitted at no weight penalty. These may include (but are not limited to) any combination of rods, joints, levers, springs, paddles, cables and pneumatic components. No electrical or electronic components (including electrical wires) are permitted. Devices that allow pre-selected gear changes are prohibited. All other shifting mechanisms are permitted at a 40 pound penalty.
A wire carrying electricity is connected to any shifter component.
Ya srly!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Isn't it any wire connected or impart to do with shifting.
If it was just coil ignition cuts. Then we would implement injector cuts..
absolute BS. Too bad for everyone that spend a ton of time and money to LEGALLY go faster and get lighter only to have a few old farts "move the goal posts" on them. Thank god for Jon "Gene Simmons" Lewis (lol) and Thomas Copeland for the Pro series. I hope anyone in FB will only run these series.
Our entire team of 4 cars for 2012..
will not be participating then in any scca national events if the 40lb ban comes in effect..
we were going to still run the pro series and run some of the pro customers at dbl nationals as well for car counts.
thanks to the powers to be soon.. I think next year will be the last year for a national class for FB, with the lowest car counts, unless the come to their senses.
And since both pro series will have an atmosphere suited for the current national driver or soon to be FB driver.. it just gets even better to go to the pro events as you will be able to drive with large fields for similar national prices. or slightly higher with so much more in return on your investment into racing.
Last edited by Nicholas Belling; 09.23.11 at 11:42 PM.
Chill. This is still just the CRB recommending the rule. He BOD still needs to vote on this. The BOD was responsible for telling the CRB to shove their assisted shifting ban and they can still tell the CRB to shove this also.
I have had universally good experiences when writing the BOD or talking to them in person, so please write them polite letters requesting they not impose a penalty of any kind. I hope that they will listen again, just like they have in the past.
A trick M/C racers used to beat the "no Quickshifters" rule was to preload the shift lever, and then run the motor to the redline.
At redline the stock ecu cuts power, and the bike slips into the next gear.
So, would the stock ECU be considered illegal under this scenario?
Another system would involve a thumb operated button.
Pre-load the shift lever, thumb the button to actuate the timer, and then the bike snicks into the next gear.
Same question here.
Eventually, most m/c racing groups gave up and allowed the ignition and/or fuel cut quick shifters.
Nicholas,
In the last letter I wrote to the CRB, I told them what was going to happen was exactly what you are doing. I guess they chose to ignore that thought. An earlier letter was about innovative development.
I'll send them another, but I have to put some more convincing thoughts together, being as the last two didn't do much.
Brett
If I belonged to a club, any club, and had so little regard for the decision makers and boards, I would leave. Too many accusations of vendettas, personal interests, and hidden agendas on this thread for my taste. After reading some of these posts, and if I were the poster, I wouldnt stay in the club even if the decisions went the way I hoped. I mean, some people say they have no faith or trust in SCCA or it's directors. Why stay then, no matter the decision? They may do something you dont like in 2013?
Do we really think that two pro series can survive without club level participation? I do not.
Last edited by billwald; 09.24.11 at 11:41 AM.
From this Forum Heading
Formula B
Inexpensive 1000cc motorcycle engines combined with standard aerodynamic tube chassis for a new class with great potential.
Why are some of you guys looking to add a shifter to these cars that costs more than the typical used motor would all by itself?
One aspect of FB that attracts me is the fact that it is not the bottomless pit for money that DSR is evolving into.
That's been argued back and forth for a few years, but the short answer is that many people in FB spend enough that the cost of a closed loop shifter is roughly as significant as whether or not they get cheese on their Whopper. It will always be that way in racing.
Gene Simmons???? Gee John, you could have at least chose someone who looks better....LOL
Fred, we're only talking shifter options, not carbon brakes, open engines, etc like in DSR. The fact is that many of the front runners in FB don't use assisted shifter systems. So, its hard to see that there is a significant performance advantage. The advantage is that it makes shifting easier and can save engine rebuild costs from costly overrevs on downshift. What's wrong with that? Sure a full blown shifting system is going to cost you a little under $5G, but if it helps you to save an engine or two, or the additional cost if it causes an oil fire, can more than pay for itself.
I know there are some that can say that they've never blown up a motor from overev on downshift. GREAT SHIFTING on their part, but there are also plenty that have. I personally don't see the problem with making shifting a bit easier. If there were a significant performance advantage (which has nowhere been proven) then I would also have to consider some type of performance equalization.
The fact is that strapping another 40 lbs to a 1,000 lb car with only 170 hp is like tying an anchor to it. It might as well be the same as banning them. I see it only as another way the CRB is trying to make them obsolete.
Right now, the choice is your's, run with one or without. If you're that good at shifting, then don't buy one. You won't be at a performance disadvantage. But, if you have difficulty in shifting or simply want to have an additional security measure that may prevent you from blowing an engine by mistake, you can choose to buy one.
No one is cramming it down your throat. It's free choice. It's not like you need one to win!
I agree 100%. Many of us hoped in the early days that inexpensive cars ($15k-$20k) could run at the front of the F1000 class, but, as you say, you can't stop people from spending lots of money, especially if they have plenty available to spend.
On a positive note, you can have a very fun, very fast inexpensive FB race car and have a blast racing it at speeds faster than a similar cost FC, FF, FM, etc. And (in my opinion) have more fun with a manual shifter.
PS. There's no doubt there is a performance advantage, otherwise all of these very talented front running FB drivers would have spent their money on something else.
Just because some of the front runners buy certain equipment doesn't mean specifically that there is a performance advantage Russ. It simply means that it makes shifting easier and less you have to concentrate on. The only way to verify if there is a performance advantage is to do back to back tests with and without on the same car. We have done that with the Series Promo car and have not seen a significant advantage, when having a driver in the car that is capable of shifting a mechanical shifter well. It does however, help with a driver that has difficulty with the mechanical shifter and takes away the concentration of shifting and enables the driver to focus more on setting themselves up for each corner, etc., so the performance advantage comes from the driver's ability. It's not like strapping another 10 hp to the engine.
I can tell you one thing, as a car owner its nice to know that the driver can't make a mistake on downshift and blow one of my engines. That financial peace of mind is a BIG plus!
Which closed loop system is Jeremy Hill using @ 2:07.0?
Bill,
I don't know if your post was directed at me, but I will tell you I have no agenda, ill will, vendetta, disrespect or however you want to describe it toward any board member. In fact, I have the utmost respect for anyone who volunteer's their time for any of these positions.
I Just can't understand why, after so many letters explaining why the rules should be left alone, these people can come to the recommendation they have. I just don't get it.
And as far as all this bickering is concerned, I am sick of it too. I run a mechanical shifter, and only thought by jumping into this, I was helping the greater good of the class.
Brett
You guys can afford Whoppers!?!?!
No Brett. Of course not. It's really not directed at anyone in particular. You can read all the posts and judge for yourself. You know me and know I really dont care which way the rule goes. Im quite happy with my car. I just dont like the club and its officals being bad mouthed in a personal manner. No way would I attack an offical, a board, or a club in a public forum. Right or wrong. I would quit first and tell you afterwards.
If anyone truly believed that a front-running FB could be built for less than $20K, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd love to sell to you. 30-40K, yes, IF you have found a cheap donor car and can do all of the machine and fab work yourself.Many of us hoped in the early days that inexpensive cars ($15k-$20k) could run at the front of the F1000 class, .....
OK. I'll rephrase/clarify. There's no doubt in my mind there is a performance advantage. You'd have a hard time convincing me that everyone who is at the Runoffs with one of those systems did not add it because they thought it would either decrease lap times or increase their competitiveness in some way.
For instance, weren't people saying they could not downshift fast enough manually because of the short braking distances?
And, if assisted shifting makes driving easier, doesn't that free up your mind and muscles for other things?
I'm not in the FB class, so my opinion isn't pertinent. However, I think expensive shifter systems make the class less attractive to people considering the class. Well, let me back track. I'm sure there are some people out there who wouldn't mind that extra cost and want wizzy technical goodies.
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