No, no, Russ. The proper response is...Originally Posted by RussMcB
No, no, Russ. The proper response is...
Last edited by Stan Clayton; 09.18.13 at 7:55 AM.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
^^^Agreed^^^
The hypocrisy I am speaking of: currently the membership generally wants the class left alone and for the technology to be allowed to evolve. Eventually those same folks are going to reach a point where their letters will say "remember when you were trying to save us from ourselves and you pretended to know what was best for us better than we knew ourselves? We told you "hands off, this is what we want." Well, now we need your help because we don't like xyz.
My point is if you want the shifters without penalty, fine. Write letters in support with some logic and perhaps some emotion behind them. But don't tell the decision makers do pound sand we don't want you involved, because eventually you will want their involvement.
I would hardly call it hypocrisy for the members to want to be the ones to propose and control changes to the class as opposed to the CRB just doing whatever they want (especially if based on bad information) - this is basically what the FV guys told them 30 years ago, and it has worked pretty well so far for them.
Never mind that that is how the system is supposed to work in the first place.
The members SHOULD propose and control.
You don't find it hypocritical to scream go away I don't need your help, and then later call out for help?
If you think the rules are "adequate as currently written"tell them so, but try explaining why...."we" get pissed when that is the extent of their reply to our requests. More hypocrisy if you ask me.
Daryl, the only part I object to is your use of the term "help" for anything the CRB does or tries to do. Sort of like if I set you on fire and then tried to claim I was "helping you stay warm."
Ha! Ha! Love it...someone who stretches analogies farther than I to make a point.
Little help here...
Huh?
A catch all phrase to add into your letters of opinion is "at this time". It keeps the door open for future changes if needed.
I conjured up a mental image of Wren standing around looking pretty. Now, I live in the San Francisco area, so that term means something.
Oh...just GIS for "fat guy in drag".
Or not...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
At least you didn't use this image instead:
Letter sent. IMHO, FB should be a open wheel DSR, but for now, stock motors.
Now help return the favor and check out this link:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47672
Lawrence Loshak
'13 FB & HP National Champion
'10 DSR National Champion
'06 EP National Champion
I have sent in my letter to the CRB requesting that there not be a weight penalty for shifting systems in FB. My position is that there is not a distinct performance advantage over a driver who can shift a mechanical system well. The main advantage is in cost savings and safety. Less engine rebuilds due to overeving the engine on downshifts and safety from reduced engine failures resulting in oil fires.
Does this mean you are saying that there is an advantage over the guys that can't shift a mechanical system well. And some people may have a legitimate beef about the electronic systems. OOPS.My position is that there is not a distinct performance advantage over a driver who can shift a mechanical system well.
There is always an advantage over people who aren't good. Such is racing.
Northwind,
What I'm saying is that an assisted shifting system can aid a driver who is not as well adapted to mechanical shifters. That being said, allowing them without penalty does nothing to inhibit the performance of one driver to the next, as all drivers have the ability to run one if they so choose. If I were a driver who had difficulty shifting with the mechanical shifter, I would want to get one. If I was good with the mechanical shifter, I might decide not to get one and save on the weight that a shifter system adds to my car.
But me being me, I would want one for the shear cost factor of not being able to overrev my engine on downshift. Yes, the up front cost is there, but the savings on engine rebuilds or simply one engine blow up covers the cost of the unit and aggrevation that changing an engine causes (which usually happens at the most difficult time) or even worst the expense of what an oil fire might cause. And, you also have to look at the savings in transmission maintenance.
I look at shifter systems as more of an overall cost savings and safety issue. There is no performance advantage as long as they are available to everyone, which they are.
I'm for shifter systems but I have to ask the question are there really a bunch of blown engines from downshift over revs?? (honestly I have no idea). I personally like it because it is cool as sh*t and makes driving that much better.
There are a few of us in "the club".
Here's the hole I put in mine - there's another one just like it on the other side of the block.
So, yes, it's easy to do (usually from downshifting too quickly).
Now that I have a Geartronics, this should be a thing of the past.
JP brings up a good point about the shifters - they are really fun to operate.
-John
How long was the engine run after the rod let go? Whats amazing to me is the color of the oil fouling in the number 1 cylinder exhaust port compared to the rest of the ports. Or was the richness in this cylinder the root cause for the failure. Hard to tell from a picture.
I have talked to several people who have done it. Including a prep shop that rented a car to someone who promptly revved the engine to 15k on a downshift.
I haven't really seen any discussion of what the downshift reject feature could do for rentals and prep shops. I have not ever rented a car and I don't know exactly how the rental agreements work, but a device that prevents mechanical overrevs could be cheap insurance for the shop and for the renter.
Someone who is experienced in their car is less likely to overrev the engine, but somone who is new to a particular car or class is more likely to. Things are happening very, very fast in these cars, particularly at the front of the grid. New drivers could have a very bad taste in their mouth once one simple mistake results in a $4k+ bill for repairs.
Northwind,
The thing detonated in spectacular fashion on the cool-down lap after a race. I shut it down when I heard the noise and pulled off the track, got out of the car in case it decided to burst into flames (which didn't happen, thankfully) and watched as the oil rapidly drained out of the car.
We found the damage to the engine had actually been done on the previous trip to the track (about 2 hours of run time earlier) when I had over-revved on three separate laps on the same turn going down from 6th - 2nd. I hit over 13,500 RPM 3 different times (never knew it, either) according to the AIM data.
Lesson learned.
Hate to always be chiming in on being Pro mechanical,,, but. I have around 55 races on my Stohr since 2007. I've rented it to 7 different drivers for multiple nationals, regionals, and tests, raced the ARRC with Cole Morgan and Shane Lewis driving, and I've done about 30 regionals myself in it.
In all that time, the car blew one motor, and I did it by riding the limiter into oblivion. Most of our feedback is that you can't downshift quick enough mechanically, and you can lose a few car lengths on a straight vs a no lift shift.
Personally, I think it's a nice tool for going a bit quicker and maybe easier to learn than mechanical. IF it saves you from blowing motors, that's a good thing. I doubt I'll ever use one and I think 40 lbs is an outrageous penalty, but blowing motors on downshifts, we just havent seen that in 4 years. Maybe it's just us.
Slipper Clutches
If you guys are popping motors from downshifts, slipper clutches would save you some motors.
http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=2930
I would think that there is a hole in the top of the piston, IF the piston is even in there at all.
Bill, more than likely, it's just me.
But really, I wouldn't have believed I could do it, but I did. The AIM data was the smoking gun (to be honest, I was pretty certain that I had not over-revved the engine, so that shows you what I know). After we swapped engines, and prior to the Gertronics installation, I learned to change my cadence on that corner. From 6-5-4-3-2 as fast as I could to 6-5-4--3--2. If that makes sense.
FYI, even now with the Geartronics I can't just mash it rapid fire 6-5-4-3-2. I still insert a brief pause between the 3-2 shift.
And yes - 40 lbs. is absurd.
John
Well John, at least you didnt ride the limiter for 5+ seconds like I did! It was a green flag, 1st turn deal, tried to hold 4th to get position. Then it went boom and resulted in a wicked little fire. Oops.
We only clutch to get the car rolling. No clutching on up or down after that. These cars brake so well if your on the brakes, it's hard to pull the paddle fast enough. Maybe thats why we dont see many over-revs on downshifts.
Bill, is this you?
http://youtu.be/fBvzmNPxR0M
Very similar!
I have a video of it, but damned if I will ever watch it again or post it.
not sure how the over rev on downshift is that common of a mistake anyway. isn't it common sense as a driver to hit the breaks, wait for the revs to drop, bang it through the gears and turn in? shouldn't need some robot to help you do that
The problem comes when you use the engine as a brake. Not smart, but I've seen it done by a lot of people. Some by mistake, some just by shear inexperience. Common sense seems to go out the window with some drivers at 100 mph and 5 cars surrounding them. Not saying its right, just saying it happens.
I think that a lot of people, including those further back on the grid would be shocked at how little time is available for those actions at the pointy end of the FB field. Especially some place like T5 at road america.
shouldn't be in a race car if traffic at 100mph turns your brain off... and shifting shouldn't be something you have to think about, watch gauges for etc. more of a second nature for me and it seems to work
Okay, for the record, I don't engine brake, in fact I left foot brake. And no, my brain is far from off while driving. Great for you if you've never made a mistake - I've made plenty and will surely make more.
But as mentioned, things happen extremely quickly in these cars, especially when going from 127 mph down to 60 mph (and the aforementioned 4 gears) into a 180-degree left hand turn.
Since I left foot brake I don't use the clutch, and the right foot is blipping while downshifting (and I'm not looking at the dash, thanks). In spite of that, I blew a hole in the motor because I got it into 2nd before I had slowed the car enough. Now, out of the 72 laps I ran that day, I only screwed it up on three of them. But that was three more times than I should have...
It's all a thing of the past now.
i wasn't taking at shot at you john, or anyone, just stating my opinion.
i've blown 1 motor in 4 years and it was a brand new FC motor after 2 sessions straight from Quicksilver. i don't care for the geartronics or flatshifter as it just adds weight to the car, and apparently even more now, as well as produces one more mechanical piece to go wrong during a race. if it does save engines i don't see any issue in using it, but it will just drive up costs in a class that, in my opinion, can't afford it if we are trying to attract more drivers
JP, typically the engine damage that comes about from downshifting into oblivion is valve related. When it's zinged high enough, the valve spring can't keep up, extra clearence is afforded at a very inopportune time, crank to cam timing is now out of phase, and piston to valve contact occurs.
The MAJORITY of engine failures in the early years of FB were mostly oil pressure related. Dry sump systems were not in use much and if they were, they were evidently engineered for dragbikes, placing the oil pickup in the rear as to provide adequate OP while under heavy acceleration.
I am convinced that other failures at this time were the result of the operators not ensuring that the oil system was even primed and actually making pressure, prior to running the engine.
In what moto-historians will in the future undoubtedly refer to as "The Middle Years" 2009-2010, advancements in dry sumping - thank you Jesse Brittsan, and wet sumping, ditto Lawrence Loshak, saw the vanquishing of the dreaded oil pressure loss under braking, mostly by placing the pickup as far forward as possible (LL), or providing a dual gearotor design with seperate feeds, one front left, the other right rear (JB), both of which provide consistent OP.
Around 2010, as has been previously documented in various other posts, Geartronics became self aware, ummm, I mean Nicholas Belling got into heavy promo mode with the Geratronics shifting system and the final piece to engine longevity puzzle was finally realised as with this system, you could not over-rev on a downchange no matter how hard the driver tried.
All that is left is for a real revlimiter to be placed on these engines that is adjustable (stocker is set at 13,250 or thereabouts on the only engine that matters, for now at least!) like a FM's with MSD box, which softly cuts ignition at a certain RPM.
Also - Getting the biggest kicks out of the assisted shifting comments!
Good thing some of us guys have things like Geartronics, otherwise there'd be a mountain of blown GSXR's provided monthly by ham fisted drivers, somewhere on the GA/AL border!
No sweat, Archuzzi, please forgive my poor choice of words - got a little too quick on the defensive (again).
I also agree that we should do what we can to keep costs down. It's already been proven multiple times this season that you can win without the Geartronics, so I believe its use should be entirely up to the driver.
Just my $.02 again.
John
Check out the big brain on brad! Nice FB history lesson coop, should be mandatory reading for up and coming FB racers!
draft CRB minutes
http://www.crbscca.com/uploaded%20fi...ck_Minutes.pdf
I am a little confused
in the section: NO ACTION REQUIRED is the following
FORMULA
FB
1. (Multiple) 40lb penalty for assisted shifters
Thank you for your letters. The CRB will request the BoD approve the 40 lb penalty for electronically assisted shift
systems.
Is this going to the BOD?
IIRC, it went to the BoD as a recommended rule change in July, but you'd have to check Fastrack. The only way to head this off is to contact your Area Director to urge them to vote No.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
This rule change has not yet gone to the BoD. It will be sent to them for their October meeting. (The prior rule change - barring electronically assisted shifters entirely - was discussed with the BoD and withdrawn by the CRB. The pending rule change was the result of those discussions.)
Dave
The CRB made their reccomendation to the board as soon as they found out that their initial dirty agenda would not fly. They had no member letter or "what do you think" to base it on.
Initially they sought member input for the shifter ban so that they could ignore it and do what one CRB member with an agenda wanted.
They learned from that experience that they should not try to even listen to members and so this time they didn't.
Dave, how did the letters break out?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote