1981 Ralt Rt4 FA roller

[Jesvilla]

THIS CAR IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE as of 5/7/2014!!

THANKS to Chris Townsend, and all that asked about it, and helped ID it's history...

1981 Ralt Rt4 FA roller, updated to Bahner rocker arm rear susp., has narrow front rocker arm susp., Fox DBl adj. shocks, '86 side pods, cowl and and nose. Chassis rear legs have been shortened 3" for autox use, two sets of wheels. Also have the '81 side pods, cowl and nose for it, all side pods are unique to this car due to the shortened wheelbase.

$13000.00 USD OBO

Jesus Villarreal
510-390-1035
jesvilla99@att.net

[Malfred]

I see that you have shortened the wheel base for autocrossing.

That makes sense for that type of competition.

Did the 3 inch shortening actually do any thing different in the handling of the car ? Did it really help ?

In total with all your mods how short did you make the wheel base overall.

What engine did you have in it. Did it make the engine bay tighter ?

Do you have the orginal legs to convert it back.

Anything else needed to be changed to convert it back to standard RALT RT-4 wheel base.

Thanks.

m.

[Lola_T360]

Have you got any info on the car that would help trace its history and original identity?
A chassis plate
A tub number
A fuel cell number,
Even the gearbox, though that's less likely to be original.

I run an RT4 registry, of sorts.

Chris

[nomis]

Chris,
Will you share your RT4 register
I would be very interested in where all the cars are

[Lola_T360]

At the moment I'd rather not share, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, there are all sorts of gaps that need filling - there were more than 100 RT4s built.
Identifying where those gaps are leaves room for "creativity" by the unscrupulous
Secondly, not all owners are happy to have their ownership disclosed. (And some ownerships are the subject of dispute...)

If there's a specific RT4 you're interested in, I may be able to help.
I have Ralt's factory records from 1978 onwards, and numerous other observations of chassis numbers in period, and an extensive database.

Jesvilla's RT4 is interesting because there aren't many 81 spec cars that I don't the whereabouts of

Chris

[DB4 Tim]

Or by letting everyone know you stop the creativity you speak of...always two ways to look at something.

At the moment I'd rather not share, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, there are all sorts of gaps that need filling - there were more than 100 RT4s built.
Identifying where those gaps are leaves room for "creativity" by the unscrupulous
Secondly, not all owners are happy to have their ownership disclosed. (And some ownerships are the subject of dispute...)

If there's a specific RT4 you're interested in, I may be able to help.
I have Ralt's factory records from 1978 onwards, and numerous other observations of chassis numbers in period, and an extensive database.

Jesvilla's RT4 is interesting because there aren't many 81 spec cars that I don't the whereabouts of

Chris

Again you have the documents and the ability to clear it up ...sorry guess I am confused why it would not be good to get it out. The owners that do not want their name out...that is easy to protect

[Jesvilla]

I see that you have shortened the wheel base for autocrossing.

That makes sense for that type of competition.

Did the 3 inch shortening actually do any thing different in the handling of the car ? Did it really help ?
In total with all your mods how short did you make the wheel base overall.
What engine did you have in it. Did it make the engine bay tighter ?
Do you have the orginal legs to convert it back.
Anything else needed to be changed to convert it back to standard RALT RT-4 wheel base.
Thanks.
m.

I never drove the car in it's original configuration, so I cannot say whether it helped or not, or hurt the handling or not. The legs were cut at the back mounting pads, then the gearbox, suspension and everything else was just moved forward 3" total. I then cut and modified the side pods to fit it. I do not have any legs in the original length.
I ran a 3.liter GM 60 degree V6, it made approximately 290-300 hp, I never dyno'ed the engine so I don't have any data for that.

To convert the car back to original specs, you would need to get original length legs and sidepods, and make the last section of the shifter rod. I did not have to modify anything else.

First entry in the SCCA logbook I have is 2/7/87, last entry is Phoenix GP 6/3/89. There are only 11 event entries in this Logbook
I bought the car from Earl Heiman
It is chassis # AM 81-147

Hope this helps clear some things up

Jesus Villarreal

[Charles Warner]

What ever happened to this car? Still for sale?

[khatchik]

Is this the car that had an Oldsmobile Quad 4 engine in it was it green, it was set up for autocross also.

[Greg S.]

The Autocross Ralt that had the Olds engine was an RT5. Won the B Modified National Championship in 1991 driven by David Thompson from Ogden, Utah.

To the best of my recollection, it has not returned to the SCCA Nationals for many years.

[khatchik]

The Autocross Ralt that had the Olds engine was an RT5. Won the B Modified National Championship in 1991 driven by David Thompson from Ogden, Utah.

To the best of my recollection, it has not returned to the SCCA Nationals for many years.

Thanks for the info Greg.

[Jesvilla]

Greg is right about the RT5 with an Olds Quad4, the year Dave T won, '91, that car still had the 1600 VW in it. He change the motor the year after in '92, I think that car is in Idaho

The best I ever did with this car at the National Championships was a 3rd place. Car is still in my posession, I am trying to trace it's history with Chris T's help, right now I am down to removing the fuel cell to trace it's initial build date and owner. I may not be able to get to this job till jan-feb.

Jesus

[Jesvilla]

History for this car has been found, I finally got around to removing the fuelcell, so, according to the fuelcell number and gearbox ID, C. Townsend's Ralt Registry records show this car was delivered to the Theodore Racing team 10/81. Geoff Lees drove the car in it's first race in Nov.'81 at Macau, put it on pole and crashed it on 2nd lap where we believe the original Magnesium tub(AM81-135) was written off and replaced with a traditional aluminum tub(AM81-147). Records then show Dave McMillan owned and drove it from early '82 till late '85 or early '86(oldracingcars.com). Best season for McMillan was '82 when he won the North Pacific Championship driving this car for part of or the whole season. I do not have a log book that shows any of the cars early life from '81 to '86.

The log book I have shows it racing on the west coast of US starting in Feb '87 until the June '89 Phoenix Grand Prix weekend. I bought it in '90, and ran SCCA Solo2 autox events from '91 until '98. It's been in indoor storage ever since.

Jesus

[Lola_T360]

History for this car has been found, I finally got around to removing the fuelcell, so, according to the fuelcell number and gearbox ID, C. Townsend's Ralt Registry records show this car was delivered to the Theodore Racing team 10/81. Geoff Lees drove the car in it's first race in Nov.'81 at Macau, put it on pole and crashed it on 2nd lap where we believe the original Magnesium tub(AM81-135) was written off and replaced with a traditional aluminum tub(AM81-147). Records then show Dave McMillan owned and drove it from early '82 till late '85 or early '86(oldracingcars.com). Best season for McMillan was '82 when he won the North Pacific Championship driving this car for part of or the whole season. I do not have a log book that shows any of the cars early life from '81 to '86.

The log book I have shows it racing on the west coast of US starting in Feb '87 until the June '89 Phoenix Grand Prix weekend. I bought it in '90, and ran SCCA Solo2 autox events from '91 until '98. It's been in indoor storage ever since.

Jesus

Small amendment to the history:
McMillan sold it to Mike Downs and it probably went from him to Gary Bingaman. For sale by Downs in On Track 8 July 85 p. 79 'RT4 '81 1982 NA F/Atl champion car, Jennings available Mike 213-320-3935. Ran in WCAR with Downs, Bingaman and Heiman. Basically though, fuel cell and box show this to be RT4-267 and thus identifiable from the Ralt records and period chassis number observation - when McMillan ran the car in New Zealand - that this is the 1982 Atlantic championship winning car.

Chris

[nomis]

Does this mean you still have the car and it is on market for sale
I will be in Vancouver Canada soon so could come have a look
??

[Rick Kirchner]

The green and white Ralt with the Quad-4 is actually an RT-3 and is owned by Joe Harding in San diego. It's now in Road Course spec and regularly runs with VARA.

[Charles Warner]

If it's an RT-3 then it could have an interesting history.

[Jesvilla]

Does this mean you still have the car and it is on market for sale
I will be in Vancouver Canada soon so could come have a look
??

Yes, I still have the car, I wanted to research the history to see where this car had been raced, so had to remove the fuelcell to positively identify the chassis. I had a gentleman from Sonoma come look at it this past weekend, but no reasonable offers yet. Vancouver is approximately 1000 miles north from Hayward/San Lorenzo, Calif., I'm just 25 miles south east of San Francisco. Car is currently apart, fuel cell out and rear suspension off, I'll be cleaning and re-assembling it in the next few weeks or months, depending on how much free time I can devote to it.

Jesus

[Jesvilla]

Small amendment to the history:
McMillan sold it to Mike Downs and it probably went from him to Gary Bingaman. For sale by Downs in On Track 8 July 85 p. 79 'RT4 '81 1982 NA F/Atl champion car, Jennings available Mike 213-320-3935. Ran in WCAR with Downs, Bingaman and Heiman. Basically though, fuel cell and box show this to be RT4-267 and thus identifiable from the Ralt records and period chassis number observation - when McMillan ran the car in New Zealand - that this is the 1982 Atlantic championship winning car.

Chris

Chris

I called Mike Downs and he told me he had no recollection of having this car in his possesion, I'm not saying he didn't, just saying he didn't remember it, I had some of the setup sheets I got from Heiman that showed he had Rick Shea doing the maintenance on the car while he had it.

Jesus

[Lola_T360]

Chris

I called Mike Downs and he told me he had no recollection of having this car in his possesion, I'm not saying he didn't, just saying he didn't remember it, I had some of the setup sheets I got from Heiman that showed he had Rick Shea doing the maintenance on the car while he had it.

Jesus

Jesus

At oldracingcars.com we have an informal grading on owners' memories and records. Mike isn't threatening the upper percentiles. Mostly we work of period information where we can. I can't remember huge chunks of my life, and as a professional academic I'm in the memory business. We shouldn't trust memory too much if there's something better to go with. Downs advertising the 1982 championship winning RT4 in On Track in 1985 is period fact rather than present memory - that description is of McMillan's car. [And McMillan only had one RT4 at a time; he had an earlier spec RT4 but I know where that went] Furthermore, in that ad Downs also advertises a Dart F.Atlantic. There weren't many of those, and McMillan had one. That suggests to me that Downs bought out McMillan's Californian shop. Downs raced a rocker suspension RT4 in WCAR until his new 85 spec car arrived in the middle of that year.
Rick Shea running Heiman's car is right. I did talk to Heiman's wife last year when I was thinking that he might have a different RT4. I think that Earl has bad memory problems now.

Chris

[Lola_T360]

If it's an RT-3 then it could have an interesting history.

It very well might. As an Atlantic.
I'd be interested to know the chassis number, and whether it's a 3 or a 30.

Chris

[Charles Warner]

I was thinking more as an F3 car.

[Lola_T360]

If it's an RT-3 then it could have an interesting history.

I was thinking more as an F3 car.

I'm still looking for the RT30 that Chris Smith converted to Atlantic spec for 1987-88

[Jesvilla]

Jesus

At oldracingcars.com we have an informal grading on owners' memories and records. Mike isn't threatening the upper percentiles. Mostly we work of period information where we can. I can't remember huge chunks of my life, and as a professional academic I'm in the memory business. We shouldn't trust memory too much if there's something better to go with. Downs advertising the 1982 championship winning RT4 in On Track in 1985 is period fact rather than present memory - that description is of McMillan's car. [And McMillan only had one RT4 at a time; he had an earlier spec RT4 but I know where that went] Furthermore, in that ad Downs also advertises a Dart F.Atlantic. There weren't many of those, and McMillan had one. That suggests to me that Downs bought out McMillan's Californian shop. Downs raced a rocker suspension RT4 in WCAR until his new 85 spec car arrived in the middle of that year.
Rick Shea running Heiman's car is right. I did talk to Heiman's wife last year when I was thinking that he might have a different RT4. I think that Earl has bad memory problems now.

Chris

I am 100% with you on the memory business Chris...LOL...The advertisement is more proof than someone remembering something from 28-29 years ago. I have read about the Dart F.Atlantic and it's deteriorating honeycomb tub on your oldracingcars site, so I would assume Downs definitely had something to do with the two cars if he placed a for sale ad for them.

Anyhow, I really pleased to have the history and info you have provided, it's a labor of love that you must be passionate about. I'm also very pleased to have been able to get this car back into the history books.

Thank you for all your efforts, if you are ever in the San Francisco area, I must meet you and buy you a pint or two.

Jesus

[Charles Warner]

Since Chris is too much of a British gentleman to toot his own horn, I will point out that while he is a font of information he does not usually give his data away. He specializes in building dossiers for these car (for a reasonable fee) that can easily add to the value of a car. He made one for the Brabham car I sold and it was invaluable. Buying him a pint(or was it G&Ts at St Pancras Station?) is admirable but buying the dossier is certainly a good idea?

Just my point of view.

[Lola_T360]

I am 100% with you on the memory business Chris...LOL...The advertisement is more proof than someone remembering something from 28-29 years ago. I have read about the Dart F.Atlantic and it's deteriorating honeycomb tub on your oldracingcars site, so I would assume Downs definitely had something to do with the two cars if he placed a for sale ad for them.

Anyhow, I really pleased to have the history and info you have provided, it's a labor of love that you must be passionate about. I'm also very pleased to have been able to get this car back into the history books.

Thank you for all your efforts, if you are ever in the San Francisco area, I must meet you and buy you a pint or two.

Jesus

Jesus

I'll be in San Francisco mid June for the Historics at Laguna Seca and the following week.
Drinks welcome - though I'm more a wine than beer man - especially Californian wines

And as Charles Warner says in another post, I am very good at turning my knowledge into value for other people's cars. The fee is 500 GBP for a full dossier and can send sample PDFs and will probably have some hard copy samples with me at Laguna Seca. Authentication can add considerably more to the value - though it can take it off if you think you've got an ex Villeneuve car, and everyone believes you, and it turns out it was raced by Vince Muzzin...


Chris

[rp]

Wow , could you be talking about a certain 75B !
rp

[Lola_T360]

Wow , could you be talking about a certain 75B !
rp

Not in particular.
At oldracingcars.com we've learned that all F2 Marches have been driven by Ronnie Peterson and Patrick Depailler [a very popular claim in Europe - there were at last count five of these and Depailler only ever drove three different 742s, two of which are still at large and not included in the current five claimed as his...]
All F.Atlantic Marches were driven by Villeneuve.
All Chevrons, Atlantic and F2, were driven by Rosberg.
All Ralt RT4s were driven by Michael Andretti [I've seen an 86 pushrod car called ex Andretti!]

Let's just say that historical accuracy has not always been a strong point amongst sellers or owners. I'm a professional art historian. I'm naturally interested in provenance, I just happen to do it with cars as a sideline, perhaps because I don't have to do it much in my day job.

[rp]

The thrill is always in the hunt . After retiring from Atlantics in 88' and owning over a dozen different models i was always interested in the history . Your previous post mentioning vince just reminded of one car i had owned . I did have a set of 75B side pods that were painted black and after sanding found evidence of green paint matching GV,s car and a couple other clues which i tried to chase back to him and even hired a private dick to chase the guy down .
rp

[Lola_T360]

The thrill is always in the hunt . After retiring from Atlantics in 88' and owning over a dozen different models i was always interested in the history . Your previous post mentioning vince just reminded of one car i had owned . I did have a set of 75B side pods that were painted black and after sanding found evidence of green paint matching GV,s car and a couple other clues which i tried to chase back to him and even hired a private dick to chase the guy down .
rp

RP
Dare I ask your real name and what the car was [a 75B?] and when you owned it?
You may be on my list of people I need to talk to about all sorts of cars!
Anyone who raced Atlantic for more than a weekend is sooner or later likely to hear from me.

I'm down to three possibilities for the chassis number of the Villeneuve 75B and interestingly no one has yet come forward with a car bearing one of those plates!

[KevinFirlein]

luckily for my client( Jim Oppermann) he actually does have one of the 83 RT4 Andretti cars ( and we can prove it) and its sitting outside about 200 ft from me now. He picked it up directly from the track at the last race and has owned it ever since doubt the car will ever be sold. Sorry for the hijack , good luck with the current sale.

I did once see a 86rt4 for sale described as ex Andretti championship car.

[dereklola]

deleted

[Jesvilla]

Well... it looks like this car is going to be going to a new /old owner, got a call this morning from Dave McMillan, he remembered little things only a previous owner would know about...LOL...he is very interested in buying it, probably will ship it back down under. Will let everyone know as soon as the deal is confirmed.

Jesus

[nomis]

So now everything is coming together
I remember this car and Dave as a couple Kiwi's and myself helped the crew at Westwood the year Dave got on the podium
All I remember was drinking Cinzano as there was a case of the stuff afterwards
If you see this Dave what series are you racing in NZ

[vince holland]

Hi, Do you still have the RT4 for sale? thx Vince

[Jesvilla]

OK, going to try this once again, since Dave McMillan did not buy this car, I'm going to try to bring this old thread back up.

Price drop to 13K ...OBO

Jesus Villarreal
510-390-1035
jesvilla99@att.net

[Jesvilla]

This car is no longer available, it's going to be restored to it's original configuration.

I've decided not to part it out, seems like it had too much history and provenance to do that with it.

Jesus Villarreal

[Charles Warner]

Let me know if there are some parts you need. I have a good supply, especially the flat side pods and body parts, engine mounts, suspension bits..

[Bubbree]

FYI His car with the Olds Quad 4 engine was and is an RT3 which started it's racing in
the F3 championship in Europe. How do I know this? I now own the car and vintage race it
in SoCal. It still has the Olds engine and is known as The Tramp Stamp Special due to it;s graphics.

[Lola_T360]

FYI His car with the Olds Quad 4 engine was and is an RT3 which started it's racing in
the F3 championship in Europe. How do I know this? I now own the car and vintage race it
in SoCal. It still has the Olds engine and is known as The Tramp Stamp Special due to it;s graphics.

Bubbree, do you have a chassis or tub number? I'd just like to keep track of the car
Also, do you know when it entered USA?

Thanx
Chris