oil tank / timing wheel clearance

[lawyerbob]

Got the replacement engine in the car and today I hope to start bolting all the parts back on. However, the replacement motar has a full size timing wheel, while the old motor had a very small one. The oil tank is located in front of the motor.

With the larger timing wheel I will have 1/4" - 3/8" clearance from the tank to the timing wheel.





Assuming the tank is secure and doesn't move, part of me says that's enough - what does everyone else think.

My other choices are:

1) replace the oil tank - in which case I need detailed pics of the the oil tanks in other Citation converts

2) swap the timing wheels - which I've never done so some easy to understand instructions would be helpful

3) put a spacer bar between the trapazoid and the frame and lengthen the car 1" giving more clearnce between the tank and the wheel. Honestly, I'd love to do that and might over the winter, but with 3 weeks to Gratten, not something I want to tackle at the moment.

Opinions?

Thanks

Bob

[rgu]

Bob

Just swap it with the pulley from the other motor if you still have it.

[lawyerbob]

Bob

Just swap it with the pulley from the other motor if you still have it.

yup the other motor is sitting right next to the car. Are they keyed so they only go on one way or do I need to get them both to TDC before removing the wheels? I assume the the nut will be pretty darn tight - is there a trick to breaking it loose? I assume they are "normal" threads (ie left to loosen)?

Thanks

[dd46637]

Bob,
The pulley has a keyway so you can only put it on one way. Torque should be about 35lbs. so it won't be hard to swap. You will need to lock the fly wheel to get it loose and then tighten the replacement. Use a large screw driver to jam the fly wheel but do it carefully so you don't bugger up the teeth.
Dave

[john f]

Bob:

Does the engine or tank move around at all? I would hope not! If nothing moves around, the clearance should be fine. If you want to add a small amount of clearance, use a sharpie to mark where the pulley is relative to the tank. Pull the tank out and, using a rawhide or plastic-faced hammer, pound down along the line marking the pulley. With very little effort you will form a depression slightly larger than the pulley giving you more clearance. The other way is to have someone form and weld in a depression to the existing tank. Give me a call.

john f

[SamF]

Bob,

On my Citation the tank and the timing wheel are very close as well. Neither move and they do not touch. Your photo shows a just a little less clearance than I have in my car.

Sam

[lawyerbob]

Thanks everyone for the thoughts

As much as I like John's idea (take a hammer to it! there are some frustrations to work out!!!!) I think the easiest thing to do is just swap out the timing wheels.

The tank is pretty secure and with the smaller wheel I have about 1" of clearance so that seems to be the best solution.

Still, hit with a hammer is really tempting!

Sold the trailer this weekend and expect to have a new smaller/lighter one within a week so I think I'm good for Gratten!

Bob

[LanceKTM950]

Sam,

How big is your dry sump tank?

Lance

[LanceKTM950]

Might as well ask Bob how big his dry sump tank is too...

There's less room in my Vector for a dry sump tank than the two examples in this thread and that's where I'm at right now, designing/building/locating the tank.

Lance

[lawyerbob]

Might as well ask Bob how big his dry sump tank is too...

There's less room in my Vector for a dry sump tank than the two examples in this thread and that's where I'm at right now, designing/building/locating the tank.

Lance

Lance - I'll try to remember to measure it tomorrow evening, but I'm thinking it's about 3" thick and about 12" wide. not sure how tall, but it's sort of odd shaped.

[Bill Bonow]

I've been trying to make a tank small enough to be a universal fit. It just happens to also fit the Evolution as well. The tank is 2.5" x 5" x 23" tall. The hope is with a few more adjustments to the design, it will fit a large number of FV's without major mods.

I'm wondering if this 2.5" x 5" x 23" tank will fit in the Vector?

[provamo]

is a "horse collar" shaped oil tank a possible solution to fit OVER the pulley....or do you need access to that wheel for timing?

[LanceKTM950]

>>I'm wondering if this 2.5" x 5" x 23" tank will fit in the Vector?<<

Not quite, there's a piece at 20" above the frame that would interfere. Ideally the tank could be 2.5"x8"x19". If anyone can make me a tank I'd be willing to compensate them for it, it's the only thing stopping me from completing the car.

Lance

[Bill Bonow]

Lance,

SR can make a tank (and they are very reasonable $). The size requested 2.5" x 8" x 19" will house plenty of oil. Get one made and come racing!

[sracing]

The sump tank system is pretty critical and just fitting one isn't the only issue.

1. You would like 400 or more cubic inches (7 quarts). (Although if designed well, a little less will work fine.)

2. You want to make sure that the bottom of the tank is the same size or smaller than the top of the tank. (The bottom where the supply line is located) (IMPORTANT)
You do NOT want the supply line to come uncovered in a long hard corner.

3, The lower the tank in the car is the better. Remember that the oil will slowly drain back into the engine case though the pump in most cases. (finding its own level). It is conceivable that you could put all of the oil back into the engine case after setting for a while. Typically this just causes some smoke at start up , but it is possible to hydro lock.

4. The tank should have baffles in it and a tray near the top of the presumed oil fill level.

5. It is best to have a return line that enters from an angle so that the oil swirls into the tank as it is re-claimed. This helps prevent foam and bubbles at the bottom of the tank near the pick-up.

6. When checking the oil level, run the car for a minute or so. This empties the engine case and puts all the oil in the sump tank. Then check the level immediatly afterwords.
You will probably want about 5 quarts in the tank.

7. You want one or more breathers at least as big as the fill fittings. (Going to a vented puke tank.)

8. When you run lines keep syphoning in mind. eg. You want the puke tank line to run up to a level higher than the top of the tank and then back down to a puke tank.

Some of the above may be modified if you have a really weird shaped or fitted tank.

On a bad day we might put a spoonfull of oil in the breather after a session on a well plumbed car. If your tank is on the small side you might have to put a higher level oil in it, thus puking a bit more.

If you have any questions, please call. A poorly plumbed dry sump system can be worse than a stock wet sump.

Once you get the hang of checking levels and how the system works they are trouble free and a huge asset in any engine.

[LanceKTM950]

Jim,

Can you accomplish all of that within the dimensions available in my car?

Lance

[sracing]

Well, It looks like it. I hear the measurements are 2.5"x8"x19", but would really like you to take some carboard and build the tank. (just tape and cardboard is fine) Then send us the card board form. Mark on the form where your fittings are wanted. Also, while doing this see if we could make it a little longer by having a small indent where the frame is at the bottom. It would be best to call so we have everythign correct. After building one it may be difficutl to fix it later.

Jim

[LanceKTM950]

Will do ASAP.

Thanks!

Lance

[Bob VanDyke]

That looks like you could play basketball between the engine and firewall compared to the Womer I converted! I would have almost sold my daughter to have that much room!

[LanceKTM950]

That looks like you could play basketball between the engine and firewall compared to the Womer I converted! I would have almost sold my daughter to have that much room!

So, let's see your tank setup!

Lance

[Bob VanDyke]

The boys at SR Racing put it right behind the fuel cell in the cockpit.

[LanceKTM950]

Nice setup, that location might be the answer to my dilemma. Do you feel any warmth from the oil?

Lance

[sracing]

I think we put some insulation in there, but make sure you can sacrifice the leg room (or head room) depending upon where your body bends.

[LanceKTM950]

That's a problem, my body doesn't like to bend anymore.

Lance

[Bob VanDyke]

The car is long gone and my old computer crapped out 2 weeks ago, so I don't have any other pictures, but you could barely get your hand between the pulley on the engine and the firewall of the Womer. Heat was not an issue, but I did fabricate some sheet metal to extend from the top of the fuel cell to the top of the oil tank because the top edge of the fuel cell dug into my shoulder blades. Ed Womer didn't like the loss of leg room compared to his Formula Vee when he drove the car, but as I didn't have anything to compare it to, it wasn't much of an issue for me.

[SamF]

Lance,

My Citation's tank is 14 X 7.5 X 2.75 which should just be about 5 quarts.

Sam

[jsteeb]

Hi guys...

This ended up being the stumbling block on the Lynks too.

I was really stuck for a little while, and tried every off the shelf tank I could get my hands on. I finally decided to stick the oil tank off to the front left corner of the engine.
I used the top half of a PACE tank (from Pegasus), and fabbed my own bottom to fit where it needed to go.



The tank ended up being just about 4qrts if you fill it to the very top (which I don't). After I spoke to folks here on APEX as well as Dave Carr and Greg Rice, I decided to use a larger oil filter (for another qrt) and 10 row MOCAL oil cooler (for a little less than a qrt). My total system capacity ends up being around 6 qrts. Oil temps never go above 210deg (knock on wood).

I'll see if I can get a better pic.


Cheers!
Jason

PS.... get that Vector done - it's gorgeous!

[LanceKTM950]

>>PS.... get that Vector done - it's gorgeous! [/quote]<<

I know! It's killing me to not have it running by now!

Thanks!

Lance

[LanceKTM950]

Holy Sh*T Jason, THAT'S a tight fit! Were you able to keep all the guts from the donor tank and just shorten everything up to fit?

Lance

[LanceKTM950]

I "think" that I can take Jason's idea and even put a 3" or 4" diameter extension offset to one side on the bottom of the tank to enlarge its capacity, and run the large filter and a cooler to get an acceptable system capacity without cramming the parts too tightly together.

THANKS to everyone for their input and ideas, I'll let you know the outcome.

Lance

[provamo]

too bad you are not allowed a longer wheelbase

[LanceKTM950]

The firewall/rollhoop would need to be moved forward or the engine/trans mounts farther back, neither would be easy to do. Yes, you could cut the frame and add a couple of inches in there, but that would affect the handling, most likely negatively. Believe it or not, it's easier to brainstorm and overcome the packaging challenge without doing too much metal work.

Lance

[jsteeb]

Provo... We are allowed to increase the wheelbase over a FV by a few inches. I chose not to because, with the bodywork, I thought it would be more trouble than it was worth. Plus, I like the front/rear weight distribution I had. Having said that (at 6'1", 200lbs, I still need about 15-20lbs of ballast). I probably should have extended the rear "clip" another 2".

Lance... Yes - it is tight. I snapped a couple pics today, but I can't find the cable for my camera. The only "guts" I have in the tank is a baffle (if you can even call it that) that I welded to the bottom of the PACE half (upper part of the tank). Other than that the tank is empty.

The first step in my tank construction was to cut a piece of 0.063ish aluminium sheet in a circle, slightly larger in diameter to the PACE tank half. Then I drilled some strategically placed holes in it, and welded it to the bottom of the PACE half. This is the upper half of my oil tank.

To make the bottom half, I formed another piece of aluminium sheet into a funnel-ish shape, and mated that with an old aluminium catch bottle. Then welded the top of the funnel to the bottom of the first piece. Popped a few mounting brackets on it, along with a fitting for the oil pick up line, and presto...dry sump tank. This ended up being a lot easier than I was making it out to be in my brain. Once I talked to enough people about the quantity of oil truly needed, did the math and found all the right bits, it only took about a day to complete. I got my wish for a round tank (helps with foaming), and I like having the bottom of the tank smaller than the top...seems like that's a good thing, but I don't know why. Less sloshing around I guess... ?

I check (and fill) the oil how Jim suggests above. With the oil level 1" or 2" from the top of the tank, I get less than a pint in the catch bottle (over the course of the weekend).

I'll see if I can find that cable.

[Garry Sharp]

Here is my Citation conversion tank. I think the tank alone holds 6 quarts. It is 6" in diameter. This might work for somebody.

Garry

[jsteeb]

Here are some pics of the oil tank in the Lynks. The gold leaf is not required, but I'm convinced it makes the car faster!

[lawyerbob]

The gold leaf is not required

that's the trouble with racing today - the guys with the gold get to go the fastest! LOL

Very cool Jason

Bob

[LanceKTM950]

Jason,

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking I am going to end up with.

Lance