New FF Chassis

[grumpyf14d]

Just to give everyone a feel for price here are some numbers from the UK.

Jamun Mygale SJ11 used post race season will more than likely fetch $28,000 minus dampers, engine, and data logging equipment. A Ray GRS07 Kent converted with everything will run $23,500 minus data. Newer Van Diemens are hard to come by but a RF00 is for sale right now at $17,800. These cars would come fairly close to stock which means there would be some time and money spent upgrading to lighter components. Add in a conversion to Honda power and $50k would more than likely not get you what you want. However if you bought an existing Kent engined car like the RF00 then you would have about 35k invested after required upgrades to make it competitive. I'm racing over here and I have about $6k in upgrades left to do which will lighten the car up by about 30-35 pounds. Needless to say the cars here don't have some of the nice upgrades you all take for granted.

[R. Pare]

Grumpy; Thanks for the numbers.

It looks like the costs of importing used cars will not really save guys all that much (note that the freight costs are not included) - at least not enough to get guys lining up for them.

Spare parts will also be an issue for those cars that have never had presence over here.

[problemchild]

Projecting car values is pretty subjective. What will obsolete cars be worth in October when there are 30 of them to choose from?

[John Robinson II]

Projecting car values is pretty subjective. What will obsolete cars be worth in October when there are 30 of them to choose from?

Obsolete, Really? Sounds like they could run the club level, just not the pro series.
I have talked to a few more people that have some experience running cars from over seas and seems that it might be even more expensive then originally thought. I think these cars might be more of an option for the pro prep shops, and I dont think many of them are jumping at the opportunity. So I have changed my opinion to make them conform to our current rules. Now who says that our rules will be the same in the next few years???
John

[Rick Kirchner]

Is this stuff coming thru Alan Cornock? He's the UK Mygale guy (as well as the royale and Reynard guy)

http://www.racingcarsforsale.co.uk/frameset-forsale.htm

[grumpyf14d]

Besides the link above, below are pretty much all of the web sites here in the UK where you can find FF1600s for sale. There's even a Spectrum 12 for sale for $32,400 on Race Cars Direct. Cost for shipping a car from the UK to the US is ~$1,600.


http://www.motorsportads.com/
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=947
http://www.brsccformulaford.com/bff_forsale.html
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/catego...-for-sale.html
http://www.racecarwarehouse.co.uk/car_list.php?cat=8

[Ben Beasley]

Here's a novel idea. Mygale wants the cars here right. Ask Mygale to send over a set of unmodified pods, brackets, and air ducts. Have Steve bring the Mygale to Watkins Glen which he most likely is bringing anyway, and do a back to back test. May be sometime on Fri. The series could get Tonis Kasemets, and maybe Polestar to oversee along with Steve and Greg. The pods and hardware could be switched out in an hour. Do a back to back and maybe back again test, Steve's car has a great Aim steering wheel EVO4 data system that should tell everyone all they need to know, to make an informed decision, with facts. If there is a difference, or an advantage, which I doubt, it could be addressed with a different restrictor plate, I would think everyone will want a Honda that is putting a new package together. There's your answer, make it happen!

[Steve Bamford]

Ben, I was waiting for you to say something as you guys have much more time in the Mygale & first knowledge of the changes needed for the side pods.

I believe Mygale has offered to send over the pods already to test.

The issue will be that everyone will claim there may not be an advantage on the Mygale but other cars can now be modified & there is no way to prove they won't have an advantage, this becomes an endless discussion. There have been enough on here complain against any changes, how did you guys ever get the Honda in? Wow!

[Ben Beasley]

Steve I was at WKA National at Beaverun all weekend. I think if the series would like to see more cars, they can oversee a test with real data. Then make an informed decision, just like they did with the restrictor plate for the Honda. They are not a club and don't really have to worry about whiners who aren't really racing anyway. They are in a position to move the sport forward, both in safety and making competitive cars available to teams and racers at a reasonable cost. Teams and competitors, running in the series, odviously trusted them enough to show up at VIR not knowing what restrictor the Honda would get. Poeple really have no reason to be freaking out about this. The what if someone does this or someone does that, is silly, the series can tell them, sorry you can't do that. I don't see any DB-1's or DB-6's with full width floors now, because it's such a big advantage.

[Steve Bamford]

My only comment is I would like to see someone who possibly buys one of these cars be able to race in the SCCA Club racing as well. Based on all the comments from many others I think they are not interested in looking at the rules. As for the Pro Series they can make that call themselves. There is great racing in the Pro Series with great fields but being limited to just racing these cars in the Pro Series limits the drivers/cars options.

[S Lathrop]

Speaking as a manufacturer of FF chassis, at this moment the market is in serious flux. Any new car will have to perform with the best of what is currently available. And new cars will have to meet the challange of what might come as well.

There are some subtle differences in the US rules vs. the UK rules. Collectively these differences give US designed cars a slight edge over UK cars at some of the US tracks.

Aside from a very weak new car market in the US, the rules are in a state of evolution that increases the risk of designing a new car until the rules are fully sorted and someone can have confidence in the rules makers to leave things alone.

The one thing that I see that improves the future is the existance of pro series for FF and FC and the potential of a class for FB.

[nulrich]

My opinion, as a constructor, is that we should keep the maximum width in line with the SCCA rules. The cost to modify the sidepods on UK cars is small in comparison with the overall cost to convert to Honda power, and maintaining two separate sets of rules will be a major headache for the series and introduce all kinds of potential for dissent in the paddock.

Selfishly, I also don't want to have to go back and rethink our new F1600 design in light of potentially wider sidepods, at least right now.

I do think making sidepods wider is a good idea, and something that should be proposed to the CRB as a rules change. Ideally the width would be the same for FF, FC, and (maybe) FB. The extra width should only be allowed if it includes crash attenuation of some sort, whether the 150 mm minimum height in the UK rules or some new requirement. Crafting a well-defined set of rules that does not put existing cars at a disadvantage will be challenging, but I believe it is possible.

Nathan

[Ben Beasley]

The SCCA club can never get anything done in a timely fashion. It is up to the pro series to figure this out then the club can follow if they want to. Look at the restrictor plate issue. The club could maybe have another 10 FF's at the Run-Offs and out running Nationals if they had the restrictor that the Pro Series uses. If there becomes any issues in the pro series, they have the ability to say sorry this is not working, we need to go back to the old pod rule, show up next race with the narrow pods, just like the restrictor plate. Steve B. don't get your hopes up, of the club doing anything in the near future. The Pro series has the ability to figure it out, the club can follow if they want. I'm not advocating the club do anything, the Pro series is a great test bed, they can fix a problem in a minute where the club could take six months.

[John LaRue]

I'm not advocating the club do anything, the Pro series is a great test bed, they can fix a problem in a minute where the club could take six months.

Ben, you are absolutely correct however remeber the lessons that history has taught us; whenever a pro series deviates too far from the SCCA club rules it suffers.

John

[KevinFirlein]

I generally agree with you John and have campaigned since the beginning to keep the pro rules = to club rules. Even the power limits on the zetec. In this case though if I ran the 1600 series I would let the euro cars in. Now I admit my motivations are completely pure. I just dont think there will be that large of a market for the euro cars at the prices talked about. By allowing the cars you remove an argument. " I would race if....." Fine you can now come and race. One less thing for complainers to complain about and thus less noise detracting from what can be a great series. If alot of people do buy them then great ! If there isnt an advantage the SCCA club can be petitioned for a rule allowance using the pro data and experiences. If it turns out there is an advantage the pro series can react with weight, restrictor, or whatever it chooses.

The down side of course is if the euro cars somehow prove to be night and day better. I dont see how, but I guess its possible. Of course every class that is supported by this forum , other then FE and FM, live with the possibility that their car can be obsoleted over night by a better design. We have all become spoiled since low car sales means that the possibility is very low of it happening but it only takes 1 design to do it.

[Steve Bamford]

These cars that this thread was started with will be fast because they are a new modern design that has done well in Europe for years. Narrowing the sidepods will only make them faster due to less drag.

The whole idea is to try to give people the ability to buy cars in the mid 30's to mid 40's k area. Now many will say that is still too expensive for a FF & they should be in the 20's k to make more people interested...well that just isn't reality when you do the math of any build, look at the engine costs alone. Sure we would have more cars running if they were cheaper, I want a modern Lamborghini for fifty grand too but that isn't likely to happen either.

These prices are for modern cars that will be capable of running at the front. It will be a shame to have a car you can only run in one series. Cutting up the sidepods to replace with less safe ones will be a waste of time & money IMO.

[KevinFirlein]

look I am all for it, but just out of curiosity what makes them a " modern design" that current cars dont have ? Is the Mygale you now have more modern then the newest Piper which was built circa 2002 or the Citation that was designed what in 94 ? The mygale is newer and it was quick with Sam at VIR but he didnt smoke the field ( like I thought he would). Sam also battled for the lead with a Van Diemen which most 'experts' would have you believe isnt that much of a car. Its not like the FF rules have changed much over the decades.

[Steve Bamford]

Sam will be fast in any car you put him in & I think for his first formula race he did a great job. He did set the fastest lap with a great field.

I am not saying the Piper or Citation is not a modern car, but you are talking about 60-70 K to build one of those.

[S Lathrop]

look I am all for it, but just out of curiosity what makes them a " modern design" that current cars dont have ? Is the Mygale you now have more modern then the newest Piper which was built circa 2002 or the Citation that was designed what in 94 ?

There was a new Citation FF at the MO pro race. That car is a 2009 design. There are no interchangeable parts between the 94 and the 2009 cars. From a distance they do look similar. The current Citation design is largely the same base for FF, FC and FB,

I think that it would be fine to let the UK cars run as is. But they must remain compliant with the UK rules. Or they must be fully compliant with US rules. I think the US rules have an advantage over the UK rules with respect to streight line speed. The club tires used for US FF gives performance closer to a winged car in the UK. The UK cars do have a lot more power though, but not even close to what I see in FB.

[KevinFirlein]

Steve L, I wasnt taking a poke at Citation and I knew Jeremy was there with his new car. I know you have regularly updated the cars just wasnt sure when the last 'redesign' was done. If Eric's Fc that we used at VIR is any indication then Jeremy's car makes great grip. We actually had trouble getting tire temp with the FC version with our limited time with the car.

on edit and just for reference I have a driver who talked with Doug about a Piper....$60k turnkey with honda, dash, and proper shocks.

[S Lathrop]

Steve L, I wasnt taking a poke at Citation and I knew Jeremy was there with his new car.

DW's car has the new body so it might be hard to recognize the difference. The new car is 25% stiffer and many pounds lighter than the old car. The frame takes about 20 hrs less time to build than the one DW has.

We are just starting to make progress with the Hoosier Radial tires. But we have a lot more work. Our setups for bias ply tires are decent for the new and the old car.

Again the car is an all new car. It is evolved from the 94 Citation. The new car is disigned around some new suspension developments that I could not incorporate into the 94 car. Jeremy's performance with the car is quite remarkable given that the car is all new, and untested.