John Berget

[marshall9]

Just received a one cycle set of tires for upcoming test day.
Great service, fair pricing and product as represented.
Thanks John !


Now as far as UPS, not so good. The tires, are shipped, tied together, in pairs, no boxing which is fine with me. Yesterday, they delivered the rears, today the fronts. Yesterday, I wasn't home, so the UPS guy just chucked the tires over the wall around my house into the backyard. Luckily they didn't roll into the pool or land on one of my dogs I did call the UPS headquarters, and they did a conference call with myself and the local supervisor. Pretty sure I'll be getting better delivery service from here on out, driver was "Talked" to. Glad it turned out well, it wouldn't have been good when the driver got here today, if the tires had been on the bottom of my pool yesterday afternoon and I had been the one "Talking" too him.

I did learn, that if I am expecting something like tires, that are heat/sunlight sensitive (It's 115 here today), I can call regional office, and request specific drop off instructions.

During my tantrum yesterday afternoon, I called Mr. Berget, and he gave me his preferred shipper number, so as to assist me with getting the issue resolved, was very understanding, even though it was not his fault what happened.

[Brad Ellingson]

+1 for John. I have always gotten great service from him!!

[rickb99]

I've ordered 5 or 6 sets of FC tires from John. ALWAYS as represented (which means in darn good condition).

UPS sets them on the front porch regardless of wheather I'm home or not. Don't even ring bell. But I am in a gated community too guess they feel it's safe.

[BennyBad]

johns the best. couldnt afford to run if it wasnt for saving money on his tires

[Rick Iverson]

I used to race with John and his CE in Charlie back in the 70s. First cabin all the way.

[LenFC11]

how do you know they are really one heat cycle? logically thinking... not many people get rid of one heat cycle tires..

after one or 5 heat cycle's, especially to guys who never actually saw one heat cycle tires from new, would be very difficult to know what your looking at.

just my opinion...

[marshall9]

how do you know they are really one heat cycle? logically thinking... not many people get rid of one heat cycle tires..

after one or 5 heat cycle's, especially to guys who never actually saw one heat cycle tires from new, would be very difficult to know what your looking at.

just my opinion...

Len,
I don't, for sure.

Considering John's reputation and his time doing what he does, 20 plus years, I am taking him at his word as far as the consumption data goes. Also, I am doing business with him partially because he is an ApexSpeed advertiser. Without folks like him, you might not be able to even ask me that question. This section, is for feedback as to business transactions between Members, and I am merely stating that I had a good experience. I am using the tires for a test day, not the INDY 500, so if they are not one cycle, no big deal. Rubber reflects that representation, and so does softness, based on my 15 years of experience . If I am wrong, I will certainly let everyone know that I got shafted. So far, I am happy with my product and value with the tires, it's not the first time I have ordered from him, and I have friends that race as well, that have been happy with their dollar to value ratio. I will let you know if they don't mount, or drive like bricks.

These tires also, if raced as stickers, lose considerable performance after one long session. I know that, but for the purposes I am using them, diameter measurements/setup to avoid crowning/etc are what I need. I am not trying to win the runoffs with them, but at a 70-75 percent savings over new, they meet my needs at this time, for my intended purpose. When I arrive at my next race, I will have new stickers tires for the event. They are 700 a set new. Not that it is any of your business what I paid for this set, but suffice to say that I saved enough to hire a very reputable engineer for the day to make changes in the car, good or bad, and get some data interpretation that will help me become better.

I will refrain from responding to your comment about never having seen a set of one cycle tires, pm me if you would like to pursue personal insults, I have too much respect for the racers here, to engage you openly.
Respects,
Marshall

[RussMcB]

I don't think Len's comments were personal insults. I'm sure many people reading wondered the same thing.

I will consider using Berget's tires, thanks to the many positive comments here.

[marshall9]

I don't think Len's comments were personal insults. I'm sure many people reading wondered the same thing.

I will consider using Berget's tires, thanks to the many positive comments here.

Okay, my bad. I just kinda felt that my comments were being questioned as if I didn't know the difference between a new tire and a brick.

Apologies Len

[LenFC11]

was not meant as an insult to you, JB or anyone. my experience is that very few people would spend $ on new tires and use them only once. would you??

most teams will mark their tires after each session as even when purchased new and used only by them it is very difficult to tell

you don't have to be running at indy to want the benifits of new of known low heat cycle tires. when purchasing used tires at say about half the cost of new ones, you not getting 50% of the tire life. best case is maybe the last 20%

i am a budget racer for sure. smallest rig in the f2k/ f1600 series paddock, skip races with long towes, and support other racers to support my own racing. i work to race. that said, if you bought new tires, you would get the entire life span of tire, and most importantly you get the best part of the tire. as well you know exactly how may heat cycles are on them and can accuratley measure perfomance and determine your level of acceptable drop.

sorry if i piised anyone off

oh yeah.. thanks russ for looking out

[rickb99]

Len,

Some guys don't know what the word "budget" means in racing terms. The single heat cycles are typically National guys who will run one set for the race (stickers when they start). Then toss them and buy a new sticker set for the next practice/qual (Johns 3 or 4 cycle tires). Then another set of stickers for the race.

WAY NOT the way we can do it but, I've seen it done many times.

[LenFC11]

rick

i respectfully disagree. have you ever seen an f2k paddock? 18 wheelers with a crew of 5 supporting 1 car is not uncommon. no one tosses tires after one session.

i'm not trying to get into a pissing match about this. if your happy with spending real $ on an unkown quantity, carry on. if you break down the heat cycles and quality for $ spent your better off buy'n one or two new sets and using them longer then say 3 or 4 used sets.

ymmv but that's my $.02

[ric baribeault]

And since I was the one to prove that to you in lap times...I have to agree

Another way of looking at it is you spend 20k to race with used tires and run around in 2nd or 3rd with no chance of winning, when for another 3k for tires, you do.

There's also plenty of alternatives to eliminate the tire issue at every level of competition such as FRCCA, CF, or my personal favorite ProF1600. I could open the proverbial spec tire for FF can of worms but I'll leave that to Mr Valet and another day.

I should also add that I used john's tires in the past and absolutely agree with previous posts about his character. I always received the tires I expected at a very fair price.

[rickb99]

And since I was the one to prove that to you in lap times...

Never said 'used tires' were the route to the podium. NO DOUBT you give up 1.5 to 2.0 seconds a lap on used tires (which is why the guys who can only run them 1 ot 2 heat cycles).

But if you are a serious low budget operation.. Bergets are GOOD at about $280 a set delivered to your front porch compared to $950 a set of news mounted at the track.

[blackbmwk1200r]

Just our second season of racing and tire degradation is something we are still attempting to properly appreciate. We also buy from John without thinking much about the exact number of cycles on the tires nor questioning the logic behind his access to 3-4 heat cycle tires.

Can anyone offer thoughts on typical cycle by cycle degradation of tires?

Do new tires experience a higher rate of degradation following the 1st one or two cycles and then deteriorate at a much lessor rate from then on or do they fall off on a pretty much equal basis throughout their useful life?

I intend to purhase a durometer but my thumnail suggests that there is not a profound difference between the 3-4 cycle tires we get from John and the ones we throw away with 6-8 more cycles on them. Is this typical or should 12 cycle tires be virtually unusable?

Thanks for your input.

[Buc01]

I think it is a really easy choice. IF you are running the Pro series or Nationals you need new tires to win.

If you are running at the regoinal/club level (that would be me), then 1-2 heat cycle tires are most ofetn better than what your competition has (5 - 10).

Never bought from Begert, but have purchsed used sets from fellow Apex member John LaRue and have been very pleased with the price vs performance and the setup information that came with them.

In my previous racing days I ran on new tires. So, yes I know the difference. All depends on your application.

My $ .02.

Aaron

[marshall9]

This post is in the seller/buyer feedback section and I got some really good service from an Apex advertiser, and am merely attempting to relay that, so if anyone else wants to use this vendor, they can do so with confidence. Why I bought them or for what purpose is of no consequence as far as this thread goes....If I want to make a swing for my kids with them, still got great service from Berget. Please READ the original post. The tires will not be used for qualifying or a race, just a test day then junked. I made a financial decision that because I have been racing on a spec treaded tire out here for the last five years, I could use pre owned tires to spend the day on setup for slicks and this was an avenue that would save me 500.00 in doing so, all the while still having "Near" new grip levels. Going from the softest setup known to man, we don't even connect rear sway bars on the treads, to slicks, the difference between new and used tires won't matter for the first few initial sessions, so long as the tires aren't so worn or aged that they won't heat up or stick at 80% or so in relation to a new set.

Here is the original post, in case you missed it:

"Just received a one cycle set of tires for upcoming test day.
Great service, fair pricing and product as represented.
Thanks John !"

I seem to be unable to find the part in it about racing, qualifying, lap times, as good as new, etc.

Respects,
Marshall

[formulasuper]

I think it is a really easy choice. IF you are running the Pro series or Nationals you need new tires to win.

If you are running at the regoinal/club level (that would be me), then 1-2 heat cycle tires are most ofetn better than what your competition has (5 - 10).

Never bought from Begert, but have purchsed used sets from fellow Apex member John LaRue and have been very pleased with the price vs performance and the setup information that came with them.

In my previous racing days I ran on new tires. So, yes I know the difference. All depends on your application.

My $ .02.

Aaron

"If you are running at the regoinal/club level (that would be me), then 1-2 heat cycle tires are most often better than what your competition has (5 - 10). " .......or (10-20) heat cycles.

[ric baribeault]

Sorry Marshall, my mistake. When you said test I assumed you ran on slicks as we always test the way we race so as to gather the most accurate data we can. Practice to us is a little different in that if we're just looking for a little restrained seat time we'll throw on used tires

[Buc01]

"If you are running at the regoinal/club level (that would be me), then 1-2 heat cycle tires are most often better than what your competition has (5 - 10). " .......or (10-20) heat cycles.

Scott: Been there myself a time or two. Remember seeing some chords once and not from flat spotting them either! Didn't need to win for the (club championship) just finish the race! Funny how you can drive like Aryton Senna on 10+ heat cycle tires and go about 4 seconds a lap slower! (disclaimer: I don't claim to drive like Aryton Senna did, just a metaphor).

Aaron

[reidhazelton]

Ok, I'll bite.

I agree, I have bought tires from John Berget in the past and he is indeed an honost guy. Yes, they are used tires and you get a somewhat unknown, round, black thing. You also only pay $50 a tire, so you get what you pay for. I'd say that is a very fair deal. My opinion, if you want a set to practice John is a great way to go for the money.

As to the degredation question, my experience is with running Hoosiers and seeing other people run Goodyears and Avons. With all tires, it has been my experience that you need to heat cycle them correctly first, before you race on them, or they will be pretty toast the next time you use them. Goodyears are much, much more demanding of a good heat cycle. I have seen this nearly every time a GY shod car (for F/SR cars, Prod cars seem to be much better tires for GY) goes out on stickers for a race. They tare themselves up and are trashed by the end. The Hoosier is best if you heat cycle it, but if you don't the second time you use that uncycled tire it will be like it is on its 5th cycle. It won't tear itself apart like the GY, but you won't get all your $$ out of it.

Anyway, after that break-in heat cycle, the first time they are the fastest. The 2nd and 3rd heat cycle are not that far off, maybe a tenth or two for an R35 (for a 1:30min track lets say). 4 and 5, figure on loosing about half a second. The 6th is about three-quarter second. Of course, it depends if you are running all the sessions at Road America or Blackhawk, but you get the point. After 9 heat cycles, the R35 is pretty well used up, and after 12 it is down right scary. The R25 last far less, figure max of 5 or 6 heat cycles. All of these are ballpark, and there are a lot of variables that goes into how long a tire lasts, but that's my experience.

Also, if you get into a tire rotation with a few sets, you can really get a lot of money out of a new set. This is what I do. Heat cycle of course first. I will have two sets of slicks mounted, one new, one used. I will run the new set three or four heat cycles for races only. Once they get to 3 or 4, they become qual and practice tires. Then get a new set of stickers. The 3-4 cycle tires then get used until they drop off, usually that 6th cycle is about all they will take. If you are running regionals, you could likely get more out of them. For the Sprints and the Runoffs I race on a new, heat cycled set obviously. For qual, at the Sprints I ran a set with 2 cycles coming into the weekend. If you manage your tires (thier use, not how you run on them) you can get through 3 or 4 nationals without buying a new set. New set = $900, so that's $300 a weekend for tires. Not to shabby.

I really can't say it enough, that (in my experience - soapbox time) you do not need a new set of tires every race, at least with Hoosiers. Sure it would be nice, but to me that is like draining your fuel cell after every session and throwing the "old" gas out. Just because one guy feels he needs to put new tires on for the morning warm up, does not mean you have to.

Or, hook up with a national guy who can't afford to test and has a lot of used 7" R35s laying around that he is looking to sell. Then you know what you are getting.

Hope that answers some questions.

RH

[reidhazelton]

Just our second season of racing and tire degradation is something we are still attempting to properly appreciate. We also buy from John without thinking much about the exact number of cycles on the tires nor questioning the logic behind his access to 3-4 heat cycle tires.

Can anyone offer thoughts on typical cycle by cycle degradation of tires?

Do new tires experience a higher rate of degradation following the 1st one or two cycles and then deteriorate at a much lessor rate from then on or do they fall off on a pretty much equal basis throughout their useful life?

I intend to purhase a durometer but my thumnail suggests that there is not a profound difference between the 3-4 cycle tires we get from John and the ones we throw away with 6-8 more cycles on them. Is this typical or should 12 cycle tires be virtually unusable?

Thanks for your input.

Tires are more than just softness/hardness. My thumbnail has gotten pretty accurate from the years of running used tires, and they may seem soft, but they won't be as "sticky", if that makes sense. Seems they give up their stick, not so much their softness, although they do that too. Also, usually a tire will have plenty of rubber to it, but just doesn't have any grip. Notice when you drive through the paddock and how many rocks you pick up. A tire might be the same softness, but a fresher one will pick up a lot more stuff than a more used one of the same durometer reading.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. Slow work day....

Is it the 4th yet?!

[marshall9]

Useful info, thanks Reid.

[blackbmwk1200r]

Thank you Reid; very helpful.

Sid Smith

[jim morgan]

Len,
No dog in this fight but I may have bought more FC tires than anyone in the country, we never tossed a tire with any use, take it home treat it ,one session on test day to bed brakes,break in engine or every now and then let dad go race.
That being said I have had friends who Club race and buy blind old tires ,when we finally thought our tires were junk gave them away and beginners were thrilled no matter how you tried to explain to them their handling problems were not the car. I need my Crossle back so I can go Rand and put on one set of treaded Dunlops and run the rest of my life.

[LenFC11]

my last post on the subject..

JB does give excellent service, i never said anything to the contrary.

my point is when getting used tires from an unknown source you really have no idea what your getting. certainly a 3rd party seller is not going to tell you thay have been beat on since lap one and have 8 heat cycles on them..

i understand budget issues as much as anyone. if your not going to buy them new your next best bet is to hook up with a national driver where your at least getting a known quantity.

i had run on used tires myself, and then chased set up on car and could never tell what was truely going on. if you buy em new, break them in properly, you could run em longer and get the true use of the tire through out its life span and more then likely spend less a year on tires then 5 or 6 sets used ones.

reid's tire rotation is spot on.

jim also makes it clear even a top pro driver isn't leaving any rubber on the table, and he prolly does buy more tires then anyone else.. they don't chase set up on car either

if you feel used, unknown tires are the best bang for your racing $ then who am i to say otherwise. carry on.

again, sorry if i pissed anyone off, not my intention.

[marshall9]

"if you feel used, unknown tires, are the best bang for your racing $ then who am i to say otherwise. carry on. "

"JB does give excellent service, i never said anything to the contrary."

Really?

"my point is when getting used tires from an unknown source you really have no idea what your getting. certainly a 3rd party seller is not going to tell you thay have been beat on since lap one and have 8 heat cycles on them."

Then stop saying it.

You say in one sentence that Mr. Berget is reputable, then in the next, you say that his product is unknown. Which is it? If he represents a set of tires , as being in certain condition, ie one cycle, you either believe him initially or you don't. Your first comment in this thread was asking how do I know that the tires were as represented. In either case, mount 'em run 'em and report the results. I had a good experience with him and said so publicly. Did you have a bad one? If so, man up and say so, or keep quiet.

Run your race and I'll run mine, I am really getting tired of this. I play in this sandbox because I have learned more here in the last almost nine years here for free than I could have ever paid for elsewhere. I am, however, getting really sick of your mouth. I apologized to you earlier in this thread, because a man that I respect, Russ McBride, pointed out that I may have been wrong in my interpretation of your thoughts. Now I am sure that I was right initially.

I will still maintain respect for this forum, and not go further with this banter, but do look forward to having a beer with you one day during a race weekend.

[jim morgan]

marshall
back off ,
len is on point and fair ,
unless the tire reseller has been the only one who used the tire he can not truly represent it's use other than pass on the alleged use.
if any of you want to use a used tire clearinghouse go for it
you're happy and the seller is happy
IMHO your wasteing your money but this is no reflection on the Sellers integrity

[marshall9]

For the umteenth time, I am not racing on these tires. I am using them for a test day to transition my car back to slicks from a completely different setup from treaded street tires . I am not naive enough to think that I could be successful in an SCCA National Race on them.

[jim morgan]

then were all on the same page, old tires have a use, just not COMPETITIVE racing

[blackbmwk1200r]

my last post on the subject..

my point is when getting used tires from an unknown source you really have no idea what your getting. certainly a 3rd party seller is not going to tell you thay have been beat on since lap one and have 8 heat cycles on them..

I know that this thread is getting a bit heated but there has been some good information shared here that I definitely, and perhaps others, will benefit from. I would appreciate just one last clarification.

Absent first hand knowledge of a tire's use; is there any way for an experienced person to accurately confirm the prior use (1-2, 3-4, 5 or more heat cycles) of a tire through visual examination and/or physical testing?

[LenFC11]

marshell

i said JB gives excellent service, NOT that he gives a good product or even has any idea of the product he's selling you. geezz man do you read???


blackhawk

there really is no way to know for sure. pyrometers and what not mean nothing, at best it could be used to compare the same tire to itself, but really a waste of $ also


jim

thanks man, see ya soon

[Clyde]

Here is my take on used tires; They are USED! I would suggest you get together with whatever club you race with and get togther with your other competitors and agree on an affordable tire you all agree to; then you each can have a NEW and affordable tire that last long enough for you to spend your money on race entry fees. New tires that last will let you know and trust your racecar is set-up properly without the grief of a used tire that may or may not have any grip even though it LOOKS like it is in good shape. Any driver will tell you the best way to learn how to drive fast is to drive the racecar. It does not matter if you have all the "trick" stuff if you do not get on the track, plus the club has less entrees. Race where you can afford to enter and drive as many races as possible that is how you go fast and the class grows and the club survives. Do not support the suppliers at the cost of supporting your club. Yes, I know some drivers enjoy saying "I could have won but I got a bad set of tires". One other thing I do not think is so smart and that is the risk that you take mountinng and dismounting used tires, just one slip-up and you are out an expensive rim.

[reidhazelton]

Absent first hand knowledge of a tire's use; is there any way for an experienced person to accurately confirm the prior use (1-2, 3-4, 5 or more heat cycles) of a tire through visual examination and/or physical testing?

There is and there isn't. I ran Tim Kautz's take offs for a couple years and that taught me a few things. One, I learned real fast how to do set up (with a monoshock on skinnies...that will test your patience!) and do just what Morgan said; chase set ups.

To decipher if there is 3 or 5 heat cycles is not possible. If you get them second hand with no middle man, and the first user marks the heat cycles, then ya know. There are to many variables that can make a 2 cycle tire junk, and a 4 cycle tire still usable. For instance, was it heat cycled? Was it run at RA (long straights, somewhat easy on tires) or at Blackhawk or Grattan (hard on tires)? Did the car they come off have a push, loose, or bad camber set up that killer the tires? And on and on.

My opinion, is what does the tire look like? Even with my race tires, I go off what it looks like just as much if not more than the pyrometer. Is there nice even wear? If you can still see the parting line down the middle then you have a 1 cycle tire. If the tire looks blue, like oil in water, then that baby has gotten pretty hot and will likely be well used.

So, you can look at it, stick you thumbnail in it, and hit it with a durometer but that will only give you a general idea. Part of the cost you pay in that $50 tire. But, then again, if you are learning, testing, or 3 seconds off the leaders, you likely don't need new tires yet and can save some serious coin, put it towards more track time, and get faster until you are at the limit of the tire.

It's not rocket science, just be sensible and have fun.

[TimH]

We may have lost the point of the original post but I sure have learned a bunch.

Thanks Reid e al..

[blackbmwk1200r]

The used tires we receive from John Berget generally have about 1/32" less tread on one side (inside?) than the other. Is it better to install these used tires with inside and outside reversed from their original mounting orientation or remounted with the same orientation as that used by the original owner?

[Steve Demeter]

Depending on the brand, it does not matter or it does.

Hoosier has told me that after 1 or 2 cycles it is perfectly OK to flip them.

Another Kudos to John also.

Got a set of "low cycle" Hoosiers for $50 a tire. Still had the mold parting line showing. Obviously they were very low cycles.

[RVJ]

Add one more happy customer here...and I have to use USPS shipping to PR...have to add a typical $ 23 to $25 per.

always very usable tires in very good shape for my taste and $$$..

Ricardo

[jim morgan]

If in doubt flip them, once cured. In addition to treating we flip regularly.

[brownslane]

I just read all the posts. Geeze guys, lighten up!!

Len is a good guy and has always been a reasonable poster on Apex. I have also purchased things from him and HE is a good supplier! To treat him the way a couple of you posters have done, well, it's just not cool! Take a breath next time, and please turn up the air conditioner!!

If all you are doing is breaking in a motor, bedding in brakes, and getting some fun seat time, then used tires are great and the way to save money.

If you are looking to set the car up and learn the affects of different shock settings, toe, etc....well, you will, at best, get limited value from any work. You are working with an unknown commodity and the most important setup tool in your arsenal; the tires.

But saving more than, say, $500 for tires actually gives you a "free" test day. Heck, we all know that the most time we can gain in racing is by increasing our seat time....the tire deal is an awesome one! I'll be in contact to see if I can get some for myself.

Thanks to you all for posting and sharing your thoughts. Valuable information for us all!

Best,