Mustache or raised nose

[Brett Lane]

First off, congratulations to everyone who made it to the June Sprints.

After reading about lift/drag issues on the other thread, I thought I'd start a new one with a few questions of my own.

I now have a raised nose for my Van Diemen, but haven't assembled it with a wing yet. Other than the obvious possible change in air flow to the side pod inlets, what other changes should I expect? As mentioned in the other thread, roll center, change in spring rates and the overall balance of the car if everything else remains the same? I plan to continue using the mustache wing for now, but will be trying out the raised nose setup soon.

Thanks.... Brett

[Purple Frog]

If you call John Walko, Chris Livengood, or Remy Audette, thye will probably tell you to sell all the raised nose stuff, and put extra security on you mustache nose parts.

A conversation with Mr. Walko might be informative.

A mustache nose equipped car just swept the two pro series races at WGI, that might be a clue.

Sent you a PM with John's email address.

[Beartrax]

But didn't Tonis set the fastest unofficial time in Bill Jordan's raised nose car?

I think the squishy part in the middle of the car is more of a factor than the front wing.

[KevinFirlein]

how soon frog forgets. Cole wiped the floor with all of us with a .....raised nose. so did Chris,Victor, Anders,Matt, and the other Matt among others. There simply is no magic bullet as of yet. Pick your aero package and dont worry about what others may be doing. A wing, any wing, wont make you a winner. you need to dial the entire package.

if you add totla wins in the F2kcs I suspect raised nose has more wins though that in itself means nothing

[Purple Frog]

Kevin,

I did word my post totally incorrect. My point should have been that you can be fast and competitive with a mustache nose. Whichever nose may only be important when the whole package, driver included, is at the top of its game.

Also, i was trying to discretly tell him not to sell off those mustache parts at deeply discounted prices, because there is a solid market for those pieces.

Also, (joking) Tonis or Cole may have had the same results driving my ol' Reynard.

[Rick Kean]

...
I now have a raised nose for my Van Diemen, but haven't assembled it with a wing yet. Other than the obvious possible change in air flow to the side pod inlets, what other changes should I expect?...

Thanks.... Brett

Can someone help me with some background info about this? When changing to the Raised Nose, what is the expected change in air flow to the sidepods?
>, >>, or <, <<?
How is the expected change in airflow related to air speeds?
...
Thread Hijack: Without any personally conducted testing or CFD effort, I have always felt that the center third of a 'planar' front wing, suspended below a raised nose, would not be nearly as efficient at -lift generation as the outer 2/3's. The up-wash has no place to go. So, if one wants to reduce the nose lift with a Raised Nose, fine, but use the Moustache style wing. I'm sure I'm missing something big here, so kindly point out the Elephant in the room, please.

Rick

[Brett Lane]

Thanks for all the replies. What I said was the "possible" change in air flow to the side pod inlets. It appears that the air flowing under the inboard portions of the mustache wing have a more direct, or uninterupted flow into the side pods. The air on a raised nose wing setup would travel over and under the wing, then into the sidepods. Whether that makes a difference, who knows unless you test both setups. With this car in FB, this air is critical above 90F.

That is the plan this fall on an open test day, trying both noses. Leaving everything else the same should provide some results.

Again, thanks for the info..... Brett

[Christopher Crowe]

-- what you learn in this testing session, Brett. Thanks much!

Chris Crowe

[Purple Frog]

Jay Novak may have already tested those configurations when he was building all the Novak FB conversions. Might be worth dropping him a note.

[Wright D]

The Phoenix F1k.10's nose is raised in comparison to the F1k.07 but retained virtually identical roll centers and camber curves. I extensively used CFD analysis to optimize the design of the F1k.10 and tested multiple low, high and super high nose designs.

The research and analysis proved that it was optimal to retain similar suspension geometry as the F1k.07 and raise the nose and foot box. The result of the raised nose on the car produces more down force and less drag and retains a high amount of mechanical grip. The proof is shown in the attached CFD analysis image of the nose and real world quicker lap times.

[Rick Kean]

The Phoenix F1k.10's nose is raised in comparison to the F1k.07
...
I extensively used CFD analysis to optimize the design of the F1k.10 and tested multiple low, high and super high nose designs.

The research and analysis proved that it was optimal to retain similar suspension geometry as the F1k.07 and raise the nose and foot box. The result of the raised nose on the car produces more down force and less drag and retains a high amount of mechanical grip. The proof is shown in the attached CFD analysis image of the nose and real world quicker lap times.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on these two forms of front wing attachment/style.

Rick

[Wright D]

The raised nose allows for more wing to operate in ground effect. The raised foot box gives a place for the "up wash" to go. These two contribute to a more efficient front wing, taking burden off the flaps (secondary elements) which generate a fair amount of drag.

The CFD image above illustrates air flow for the region in question.

If the foot box is not raised, then I am not sure you would see a significant difference between the two. Testing and lap times tells all.