Just curious......why would you assume that the Firman has "extra" downforce? Do you mean relative to the other FB designs?Originally Posted by Christopher Crowe
Just curious......why would you assume that the Firman has "extra" downforce? Do you mean relative to the other FB designs?
He means relative I think. The general consensus is that the Firman makes a bit more downforce than some of the other cars but *may* come with a drag penalty. Haven't seen any data to prove or disprove this though.
russ, we were one of the few to start on slicks which would have been the right choice if it hadnt rained 1/2 way through!! as it turned out i was just hanging on hoping it would dry which it did but to late to catch novak, regards, jeremy
I wonder the same thing. There seems to be some association with large frontal area and downforce that is really not there. The Firman has very small rear wings and almost no diffuser. Their floor is pretty big, but not as big as the rules allow. There seems to be a misconception that the Citation is fast because of a small frontal area. A quick look at the trap speeds from the last runoffs will disprove that notion. Brandon and Tom were middle of the pack on straightline speed.
Standard for FB right now seems to be little rear downforce and a lot of front downforce to counteract the mechanical stiffness associated with the high roll centers that are a product of the raised noses or the high spring rates neccesary to keep the front roll centers from going all over the place.
I am guilty of thinking Brandon's Citation is better at straightline speed at the expense of DF, but I know it's not true. It just *looks* like it has less air to push out of the way. But, knowing how fast Brandon goes through high speed corners, I'd guess you guys have the DF thing working pretty well (along with mechanical grip, driver skill, etc.).
A raised nose does not necessarily result in a high front roll center or roll centers that move a lot in bump or roll. Further, the absolute height of the front roll center is much less important than it's relationship to the rear roll center (and other aspects of the suspension). You can design poor geometry with both raised and conventional noses.
Nathan
I have no data to back this up......but I would expect the total downforce and drag of any FB to be largely a function of front and rear ride heights. I would also expect any serious FB design to take maximum advantage of the floor and diffuser rules.....otherwise you are giving up potential improvements in downforce and/or drag.
Where the RFR FB excels is in mechanical grip. (other cars have their strength in other areas). I think that's one of the reasons the car does so well in the rain and at certain tracks. With the new rear wing this year the car's overall aerodynamic characteristics have been improved. Reduced drag and higher top speed. While the car looks to have "no diffuser" as Wren puts it that is one of the areas that has actually been designed via CFD. This car manages to win even when it runs overweight (one of its well known issues). Imagine what it could do if it went on a diet.
Finally someone speaks the truth....this has been exactly what I had concluded several years ago.A raised nose does not necessarily result in a high front roll center or roll centers that move a lot in bump or roll. Further, the absolute height of the front roll center is much less important than it's relationship to the rear roll center (and other aspects of the suspension). You can design poor geometry with both raised and conventional noses.
Nathan
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc
FB #76
I echo what Jeremy had to say. Some of us (very few) went out on slicks. It almost worked. The weather pictured would make anybody scratch their head on what to do.
I was going to use Coop as a speed and traction barometer as he was on slicks one row in front of me on the grid. He pulled into to pit lane just before we went to the green flag for the start of the race and retired.
Jeremy -
Were you the car right in front of me at the beginning of the race (I drive the yellow/green FE)? It looked like you had a few slow laps at first, then took off like a rocket when the dry line started to form....
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
marshall, yes that was probably me, i started 3rd behind mclaughlin, i was just trying to stay out of the way certain of a chance of victory when the track dried out....
Last edited by JEREMY HILL; 06.20.11 at 4:19 PM. Reason: tired from 12 hour drive
Not only did I show up on grid
on slicks, I went full monte on my FBros and ran the exact setup, didn't even disconnect roll bars, no more wing, nuthin'!
I was that convinced the weather and track conditions would go a certain way...
OOPSIE!
What took me out of the race was a bad master switch.
All through the pace lap the car was either on or off.
It wasn't real safe, for me or all the other dudes for that matter.
When I came in at the start and had Critter wiggle the switch I knew I was screwed when he held the red plastic key in front of my face shield as the engine just kept running...
Fuggin' $40 parts
HUGE props to Bill McLaughlin/RFR for a super drive!
Any photos or videos from the sprints?
A couple photos from the weekend.
Looks a bit soggy. How are you liking that new ride?
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
Oh sure, you betcha...
It'll dry right out, 5 minutes, TOPS!
Even on the pace lap, when I asked Brandon what was going to be the right tire to have, his answer was that it was 50-50 for the part of the track that he had seen so far.
It was nice to get the tire guess right, but disappointing to miss the setup so badly after running well all weekend.
...
I'd say the running 2 to 3 seconds a lap faster than every other FB definitely qualifies as "runnig well". Nice job!
Yikes !!
glen it will clear up after that gloomy looking fog roles overtop of start/finish and goes away. !!
yikes.. I wouldnt want to be in pregrid checking my mirrors on drys...
from what i heard was it dried up on the track at some point and then the droplets started all over again.
A few snaps I, a decidedly non-professional, took, mostly at T5 and a couple at the party. Thanks, Mike, Colleen, and everyone- had a great time!
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Party Pics
Some more of the party
Last edited by Mike Holland; 10.19.12 at 9:12 PM.
Steve and Mike the Okie boys,
It was great meeting you guys and thanks for all the support with applause on the cool down lap. It didn't go un-noticed on the hillside just before T-6. You boys have to get your machines running with us next year. I promise the conditions will be better because they sure couldn't have been much worse.
If the gods decide to smile on us we will be ready to test Mike's new car by the end of July. Should be a pretty sweet ride!
So Mike(s),
Are you going to give us a little sneak peak of this creation?
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