INDE MSP Formula Ford results

[marshall9]

Despite high winds on Sunday, good turnout and close racing. Times can be seen on www.mylaps.com Results are as follows:

Saturday Main Event:
1) Jens Ploughman Swift DB6
2) Bill Stern Swift DB1
3) Jim Edmonds VanDiemen RF85
4) Karmen Kaminsky Van Diemen RF97
5) Ed Voss Crossle 25F
6) Jared Ratcliffe Crossle 30F
7) Tom Cuevas Crossle 25F
8) Will Tait Swift DB6

Sunday Main Event:
1) Jens Ploughman Swift DB6
2) Tom Cuevas Crossle 25F
3) Jared Ratcliffe Crossle 30F
4) Karmen Kaminsky Van Dieman RF97
5) Jim Edmonds Van Diemen RF85

We are currently searching for a new spec tire , as the Sumitomo street radials that we are running are no longer being imported to the US in 13". Options being considered are American Racer slicks or the soft street radials that require shaving and are currently used on Legends cars. Suggestions are welcome as we want to hopefully keep the cars as equal as possible tire wise, without having to split up the group because of aero/technology advances between the newer and older cars. Anyone wanting to sponsor or discount a tire that is adopted will immediately sell 40-50 tires, as that is the range of participants' needs for the next event in September. A decision will be made soon, to allow for testing/suspension tuning prior to the weekend. Interested parties should contact Jens.

[Josh Pitt]

at $400 a set, the american racer should be a no brainer for the tire to use.
low cost, and they last.
how much more would they be than buying a street tire, and having them shaved($80/4).
you might even get more interest in your group using these. they are a big sucsess in every group that i have heard of who uses them.

[marshall9]

at $400 a set, the american racer should be a no brainer for the tire to use.
low cost, and they last.
how much more would they be than buying a street tire, and having them shaved($80/4).
you might even get more interest in your group using these. they are a big sucsess in every group that i have heard of who uses them.

I agree Josh and sent imput accordingly to Jens. It's not "My" group. Jens started, has promoted, and ultimately will make the decision. You should have received an email by now asking for imput. If you are not on said list, let me know and I'll see that you get added. Good to hear from you Josh, hope all is well and maybe if the AR's become the choice, you'll come back. It would be good to race with you again.
Marshall

[Rondo]

Agree on the AEs. Excellent experience with them here in the East. 1/2 to full season (of 14 race days) depending upon the number of practices you run and how picky you are. Surprisingly constant grip from cold until just too many heat cycles and they lose it.

Dean Berry has raced on both - ask him

[marshall9]

Dean Berry has raced on both - ask him[/quote]

I had the pleasure of speaking with Dean regarding this when he was out here earlier this year. Good guy, I always enjoyed racing with him and hated to see him move back east.

[TimH]

IYou should have received an email by now asking for input. If you are not on said list, let me know and I'll see that you get added.

Jens attached the list to his message soliciting opinions and there's no Josh on it.

I'm just an ignorant newbie but joined up because I do support the general notion of using a street tire, if only so a wet day (yeah, I know it's rare in AZ but the three sessions in January were the most fun I've had in two decades and had a lot to do with why I went car shopping immediately) doesn't require a whole extra set and setup.

I can't say, from reviewing posts here, that the American Racers are without qualification popular. People get 15-20 heat cycles out of them? We do that in one weekend. What I don't know is whether the proposed National 595 is any better in that respect; I know a lot of ultra-performance street compounds aren't and that's why the cheapo Sumitomo was so great. The need for shaving isn't encouraging. To let my car run with Marshall's we need a really awful tire which is likely to be durable. Better would be if it were something the Carroll Shelby Tire guy could stock for us to cut down the need for spares. Tom Cuevas mentioned that if we all had to buy one set of 14" or 15" wheels we'd still probably come out $ ahead over the course of a season or two.

Well, actually, for me to run with Marshall we need to put *him* on terrible tires. For now I'll use up that set of Avons on mine and just might not get lapped so easily..

Looking forward to all this being sorted out by the time I plan to get competitive late in 2012.

[marshall9]

Tim,

Flattering, but I have been at this for 15 years and that was your first weekend. I remember your times were constantly improving through out the weekend. You will get there, regardless of the tire that is selected. You are intelligent, a gentleman and weigh 70 pounds less than me.......seat time buddy, seat time

By the way, the car you bought is beautiful and beat me in my old DB1 one Sunday with the previous owner at the wheel. I won Saturday with him second, ahead of Jens and some other competent drivers . He owned and drove it for years, and it is fast.

Respects,

Marshall

[TimH]

By the way, the car you bought is beautiful and beat me in my old DB1 one Sunday with the previous owner at the wheel. I won Saturday with him second, ahead of Jens and some other competent drivers . He owned and drove it for years, and it is fast.

I do believe it is the prettiest car in AZ. I was braking super early in the rental DB1 so I know where to pick up some full seconds once I'm more confident. For medical reasons, though, I'm only going to be able to run a couple of times over the next year. The original plan was to spend the time off putting together more of a cheap fixer-upper car but that Caldwell was just irresistible (and I made my maxed-out but low offer expecting Barry to turn me down - I nearly fainted when he stuck his hand out after a very long pause and the fantasy suddenly got real).

I think he was running the Avons in his last few events, if that's any consolation to you.

[marshall9]

I think he was running the Avons in his last few events, if that's any consolation to you.[/quote]

The weekend I was referring to, we were both on Sumitomos. It was about five years ago....

[azjc]

Personally and from some of the comments I've heard from a few running EFF the use of street radials is part of the lure of the class. Way different driving style then racing tires, also what most of the world has been using (USA one of the few if not only that went to race tires?). Watch a FF on street radials either from behind or track side - great fun.

As for Inde - Well worth the drive on one of the worst roads I've driven on a long time (remember I live in AZ!) getting to the track. Track it's self is loads of fun, challenging and even a bit humbling. Facility is fantastic, ProAutoSports put on a great event, I opted to run Sunday only so I drove down on Saturday in time for the dinner & social at the track, stayed at the Holiday Inn Express for $59 (including breakfast)... washboard road to the track is best driven at 55mph and above. Even with the wind gusting to 60 and tons of dust I'd still go again. Best bet is a motor home and just stay for all three days, people even camped in tents!

[TimH]

No question I plan to drive INDE some day. The car just isn't ready yet, and I'd rather my first time in it will be closer to home. Should be all set for the FIR Mondo event in late September, already took the time off from work for Friday. Having some trouble containing my impatience, though, might need to drop by FIR for a social visit next week.

I've watched the EFF for several years now as I ran a street car once or twice per. Jens is a superb salesman, but he also has a great product. I've just been waiting for my life situation to open up the possibility of joining. The tires were absolutely the primary appeal over SCCA or really any other option locally. Aside from the reasonable tire budget, I like what the lower stress forces do to preserve the rest of the car and reduce maintenance costs (money of course, but time maybe more so). Equalizing modern with vintage cars is a bonus I never considered. Back in the early 1980s living in the East I was attracted to the old RCCA and their street tire concept but was worried their novice drivers seemed a little too willing to hit each other. I don't see that in EFF and in fact the other racers are the second-most important attraction.

And then diving the rental clinched the deal. My experience with lapping days in the old Barber 1600s nearly convinced me to never consider a formula car again. Once I got the car rotating at all I just didn't have the skill to save it, which made for a lot of frustration trying to shave tenths. Though they were on street tires, Jens explained to me that those Bridgestones were particularly unforgiving. The Sumitomos were night and day different - I had a whole lot more fun than even the RX7 in snow and felt safer, too. My only worry with the current ultra-performance street proposal is it might be like the Bridgestones again. The Direzza Star-Specs on my street car are very forgiving though, and that's giving me some comfort. Again, if they don't work out the choices open up considerably with bigger wheels.

[azjc]

Sounds like you've got the right idea, on track to have some fun. Both the West & East tracks @ Firebird are great learning tracks, Not too fast, room to pass (or be passed) and close to home. No, Inde or any other track that is a long tow would not be a great track for the first time out in your own car, although anyone in the Yellow Group will give anyone else a helping hand if needed - great group of people.

As for a track to learn driving and racing skills - Inde is fantastic. I'd had a very "off" week - lot's of pressure, OT hours preparing for inventory at work this weekend and my family had just left on a Hawaii trip I couldn't go on. I was a bit "lost" the first time out, got together with Jens and followed him around in qualifying... that is the kind of group that runs at ProAutoSports. I almost didn't go, glad I did and will be tough to pass up Inde in the future.

If you want to see some in car video: http://youtu.be/ejMpz9Xru9g I was about 5 sec of the other FC... and I beat him on the Firebird Main track a few months ago .

[TimH]

As for a track to learn driving and racing skills - Inde is fantastic.

I'm *really" looking forward to it some day.

My one and only complaint about Phoenix tracks is that FIR West is the closest thing we have to any elevation change. I originally got hooked on driving when I was a passenger in a 6-cylinder 914 going through the diving turn at Lime Rock, and it sounds like INDE could be significantly better even than that. Well worth the short tow. Only question is whether to camp or motel it or put new tires on our old motorhome.

[marshall9]

Again, if they don't work out the choices open up considerably with bigger wheels.

Larger diameter wheels will require more investment and will probably have to be bought new, or God forbid manufactured, as it is hard to find FF bolt pattern and back spacing in any other wheel, currently being used. Also, everyone will have to use different gear ratios on our local tracks, unless a tire is found with same diameter to match our current Sumis, which again causes engineering issues with sidewall construction, due to the fact that in order to have the same tire diameter on a 14" tire as we currently have on a 13" tire, the profile must be WAY lower. The entire car will have to be re-setup, more so, than just due to traction changes, but ride heights, etc. It would basically be starting over with shock/spring rates, etc. IMO, that is the worst option. To engineer a car to run up front on larger diameter rims, would require more money immediately in testing, and setup and parts, than just going with another 13" option.

Example:

Set of wheels: 1000 (Very conservative)
Tires (4) 500 (Average between Sumis and ARs)
Springs 400 (If you can lower ride height with same shock/spring length, if not, $$$)
Retuning shocks 500 (If known what works, and only has to be done once and
you remove them and reinstall yourself)
Alignment 200

12 more gears 1500 (if found used)



These numbers are before you factor in track time, engine/chassis wear and having someone at track to download your data and recommend changes.........You now have, if you are lucky, a competetive EFF on larger diameter wheels that must be completely reversed to drive in any other series on any other tire and is therefore devalued in the marketplace if you ever desire to sell it, or the slowest car in SCCA FS.


Josh, feel free to chime in regarding the changes you had to make to run ARs after the Sumis, it had to be less overall.

[TimH]

Well, I doubt you'd have to completely abandon your existing gear ratios, and I *was* hoping a group buy would produce a lower total for new wheels but the actual $ totals are mostly a quibble. Your point about the development required is a big one, and I hadn't really thought through that ride height might be thrown so far off that we'd all need new hardware or that one car's development might not easily transfer to the others. Ick.

[marshall9]

Well, I doubt you'd have to completely abandon your existing gear ratios, and I *was* hoping a group buy would produce a lower total for new wheels but the actual $ totals are mostly a quibble. Your point about the development required is a big one, and I hadn't really thought through that ride height might be thrown so far off that we'd all need new hardware or that one car's development might not easily transfer to the others. Ick.

True, not completly abandon ratios, especially if your box is M/K , as you don't need dedicated firsts. I'm probably wrong, wouldn't be the first time.....as far as ratios, a 9:31 is different then a 10:31, by two teeth. I would imagine tire diameters matter as much. But then run what you got, just saying. Show up to win. If I don't think that there is a chance of that , I stay home. Everything else is a lapping day. Other that that, see ya there, and have fun. You are in the unique position of owning a capable car, that with proper preparation can win, the rest is up to you. This group has gotten way off base, ,as no matter what, we have 10 to 15 FFs willing to show up monthly on whatever tires.....winning in that mix is a different story. I am just feeling the future pain of having to engineer expensively to run up front. Being a backmarker kinda constipates me ...
Respects,
Marshall

[TimH]

Show up to win. If I don't think that there is a chance of that , I stay home. Everything else is a lapping day. Other that that, see ya there, and have fun.... Being a backmarker kinda constipates me ...

Now here you and I differ greatly. I'm *planning* to be a backmarker for a while, even if I can't use the car as an excuse. I just want to be a little better each day than I was the day before. I really enjoy lapping days, trying to win my class of one. The only thing that bothers me about it is the possibility of getting in the way of folks racing each other. That said, I do look forward to being able to mix in with the rest of you at some point.

I can see that the Euroswift becomes the Unfair Dis-Advantage if we all have to go through extensive development, most of the rest of us piggybacking on each others' work..

[marshall9]

Federal 595's in 13 inch, shaved is the new official tire for the EFF series. The ordering process is in progress. I think that this is a good choice, and that it will avoid us having to split up the group, keeping the older cars competetive, and avoiding gear buys and other engineering issues.

See ya'll on the track in September. I most likely will utilize that first Friday and part of Saturday as test time for my one off race this year in the West Coast FF Pro1600 Series race in Las Vega$. I'll probably be testing different tires those days, as I haven't decided which ones to run, as the Series only allows one set for the whole weekend. Maybe American Racers, or a 2 something Goodyear. They have to last four to six sessions and through the main Sunday race.

After that, we'll work on engineering the car for the new spec tire. I look forward to it.

[azjc]

[quote=marshall9;300243]Federal 595's in 13 inch, shaved is the new official tire for the EFF series. quote]

Cool !