A new engine for F1000??

[Jnovak]

I'm enjoying the debate from the sidelines...have fun. FB has been in my opinion an enormous success but could benefit from a little more variety in engine selection. If I had my druthers (and I have suggested this many times in D Sport) you should open up the engine selection to include 3 cylinder engines of 1100cc displacement maximum and 2 cylinder engines (twins) to 1200cc's. That would give some real variety.

Scary thinking, Huh!

Hasty Horn

I am up for that deal Hasty, very similar to the Superbike rules.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Brands]

How about opening up the f600 rule to 675 triples then! : )

[Jnovak]

How about opening up the f600 rule to 675 triples then! : )

We need to see how things go with the 600s first. Hopefully the class will get approved. Then a 3 cyclinder is enough different than a 4 cylinder 600 to require a different restrictor.

The 600cc engines will start out with IIR restrictors to eliminate the engine of the year and differences between engines.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Daryl DeArman]

I already have a Triumph triple in my garage....granted it's not the 675 Daytona, it's a 1050 Sprint and it's giving up over 40HP to a GSXR1000.

Jay,

So as long as the restrictor is small enough and you aren't calling a 9:1 and a 14:1 motor similar just because they are both 4 stroke, 4 cyl, 16 valve motors, it seems to work?

My limited education on this manner tells me that a combination with a low VE (due to restriction) with a high CR combination can produce the same BMEP as a high VE low CR combination. Thus a 10:1 motor that makes 200HP stock restricted the same amount as a 14:1 motor that also makes 200HP stock will be affected to a larger degree.

[starkejt]

That sure is a lot of abbreviations. Were you eating Frosted Alphabits straight from the box again last night?

[Jnovak]

I already have a Triumph triple in my garage....granted it's not the 675 Daytona, it's a 1050 Sprint and it's giving up over 40HP to a GSXR1000.

Jay,

So as long as the restrictor is small enough and you aren't calling a 9:1 and a 14:1 motor similar just because they are both 4 stroke, 4 cyl, 16 valve motors, it seems to work?

My limited education on this manner tells me that a combination with a low VE (due to restriction) with a high CR combination can produce the same BMEP as a high VE low CR combination. Thus a 10:1 motor that makes 200HP stock restricted the same amount as a 14:1 motor that also makes 200HP stock will be affected to a larger degree.

The reality Daryl is that all the modern 600cc bike engines are in a very competitive market place and they all have very similar specifications and HP levels. The IIRs do work.

In GT lites they engines are pretty much unrestricted so all the development in the world does not make much difference, they all make the same power. If you look at their rules there are actually multiple different sizes for DIFFERENT size engines and configurations. For instance all 1600cc engine that are 4 valve use the same restrictor no matter who manufactures the engine. A 2000 2 valve engine gets a different size.

The IIR method has been used by many sanctioning bodies for at least 10 years with great success. I am not saying that this is the only answer but I think it could be a very functional solution. The downside is that there would also be some restriction on the current engines to make it functional. I suspect that it would reduce peak power on current engines by about 10hp to be functional. The 32mm restrictors reduce the HP on the 600cc bike engines about 7 hp (engine dyno) as I remember.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Steve Herrod]

The reflash consists of a minor internal alteration to the ECU, so it will take a bit longer than the normal; 2-3 weeks.

I've been looking at Honda reflashing for some months now, as I have a 2009 CBR sitting in the garage waiting for an ECU solution. I think the minor internal mod mentioned in this email is adding a com port to the ECU for cabling to a computer. The case is cut, potting removed, and a port is soldered to the circuit board and repotted. This was a method used by the early ECU hackers before all the pins had been mapped inside the ECU wiring harness connector. This allows the Honda maps to be reflashed as the Suzuki, Yamaha, etc are currently done. Christian Piasini in Italy has finally mapped the pin connections and developed a plug in flashing cable for the Honda. He has a US distributor in California but they don't communicate very well with potential customers. By the way, Piasini's Honda reflash kit is around $1000.

Another point for discussion: Reflashing software allows modification of fuel and ignition maps. FB rules don't allow for changes to stock ignition mapping, only fuel maps may be changed. Are all the current Suzukis running with stock ignition maps? Human nature being what it is, I can't imagine there isn't someone out there passing up an advantage, albeit a small one, and one that isn't easily detecable.

[FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold]H.4. Engines[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]C. The stock ECU shall be used. The ECU fuel map may be changed.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold]Devices that modify inputs to the ECU (e.g., Power Commander)[/FONT]
[FONT=Univers-Bold]may be used. Stand-alone after market ECUs are not permitted.[/FONT]


[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[Daryl DeArman]

That sure is a lot of abbreviations. Were you eating Frosted Alphabits straight from the box again last night?

By the paw full.

The reality Daryl is that all the modern 600cc bike engines are in a very competitive market place and they all have very similar specifications and HP levels. The IIRs do work.

Gotcha. I guess it just boils down to idealogy. Given the choice I'd just prefer a s-l-o-w progression of HP over the years instead of all the politics, bickering and on-track data involved in trying to attain/maintain some sort of parity. Racing to me, is a lot more fun that way.

[HastyHorn]

From a restrictor plate point of view the R1 situation is illuminating. The Euro R1 comes with 15-18 more peak HP than the US version. Plugging the Euro ECU into a stock US bike instantly returns that 15-18 high rpm HP. The US system allows the butterflies to open to their maximum opening at mid range to moderately high rpm but as the rpm gets within 3000 rpm of redline the butterflies on the US equipped model begin to close and at peak rpm will only open to about 75% capability.

I believe (as does George Dean) that the difference is mandated by US sound regulations. So this system is acting as a restrictor plate.

Hasty Horn

[George Dean]

Hi Guys, Santa brought me a new engine dyno for Christmas! What a fantastic tool! The chassis dyno I have been using for all of these years has serviced me well, But this new one is so much better and I can gather so much more data with it. I finally hav gotten the 2011 ZX10 Kawasaki engine up and running, The results have been fantastic so far! The engine pulled 197 horsepower at 13000 RPM and 86.4 foot pounds of torque at 11000 RPM. The engine was tested with a box stock ECU, A GDRE modified wire harness, a Muzzy header designed for a 05-06 model ZX10, Tested with Sunoco 260GT 100 octane racing gasolene.
I think there may be a new sherriff in town!

GeorgeAttachment 28986

[Purple Frog]

FB chassis builders will need to design new chassis with adjustable engine mounts so owners can adapt to the "engine of the month" quickly.

[SOseth]

Sounds like it's time for an inlet restrictor?

SteveO

[urbanimports02]

why would we put an inlet restrictor on it? just because it makes more power then a gsxr? maybe we should have put a restrictor on the gsxr so the older zx10, r1, cbr1000, etc could keep up with it? lets face it, there is going to be a changing of the guards sooner or later, and i think it is here.
we hope to have the dry sump kit for this motor machined by the end of next week, and get up there to run it on the dyno for the final piece of the puzzle. the kit was a lot of work as this engine is pretty unconventional when it comes to oiling, but the final product looks really quite nice.

[Purple Frog]

I see it now... a Table "F" in the FB rules.

[JRMarchand]

George

Hello and thanks for sharing the info, I wonder if that engine been rebuilt or straight from factory/stock.

How much power will the GSXR 2011 give up to the Kawi on your new dyno?

so with a proper header and tune, this thing could make an extra 6 hp and 3 tq, thats sick.


Juan Marchand

[RobLav]

All those naysayer predictions of the engine of the month club have been wrong! FB has been around now - what - 5 years? The GSXR in various years has been the mainstay throughout.

[fezzic181]

Why do people buy into a class that has an engine rule that says here's the displacement go find what wins and then cry omg lock the rules down so my car is the best one forever. If engine of the month isn't your cup of tea might I suggest FE, FM, FC.

[RobLav]

Steve O is already an FF driver - lurking about here.

[SOseth]

why would we put an inlet restrictor on it? just because it makes more power then a gsxr? maybe we should have put a restrictor on the gsxr so the older zx10, r1, cbr1000, etc could keep up with it? lets face it, there is going to be a changing of the guards sooner or later, and i think it is here.
we hope to have the dry sump kit for this motor machined by the end of next week, and get up there to run it on the dyno for the final piece of the puzzle. the kit was a lot of work as this engine is pretty unconventional when it comes to oiling, but the final product looks really quite nice.

Because IMO I don't think the club wants to see a HP race in this class. Up to this point the engine situation in FB has been very stable if only because no one would get an engine other than the Suzuki to legally be competitive. If the BMW and Kawasaki can be reliable then the barn door is beginning to open. This is my 2 cents and worth exactly that.

SteveO

[SOseth]

Steve O is already an FF driver - lurking about here.

Yes Rob, exactly correct.

SteveO

[George Dean]

Attachment 28989 The engine is brand new from a Kawasaki box, Nothing has been done to it, The reason the ZX is so bumpy in the lower RPM's is it is lean there, I am working on fixing that. I have not tested a 2011 Suzuki yet but here us a graph of the ZX vs a 08 GSXR.


George

[jerry freeman]

George,

Is the Suzuki data from the old dyno or the new one? I would think that you would want to compare the engines on the same dyno.

Jerry

[JRMarchand]

Thank you George

[George Dean]

Both tests are done with the new engine dyno, I would not post invalid results like that! Since I am no longer turning a rear wheel and driving a chain the new dyno reads about 2 horsepower higher than the old chassis dyno.


George

[Wren]

why would we put an inlet restrictor on it? just because it makes more power then a gsxr?

Because most people, even those inside the class, have no concept of what these cars are capable of. Adding a bunch of horsepower to it is unlikely to help anything.

[Wren]

All those naysayer predictions of the engine of the month club have been wrong! FB has been around now - what - 5 years? The GSXR in various years has been the mainstay throughout.

Last year after the runoffs when the engine of the month doomsaying came up again, I remember someone who is supposed to be "in the know" asking me if I really thought a 2007-08 GSXR would have a hope of winning the runoffs in 2011. They were just sure that it couldn't happen.

[urbanimports02]

and remember that for a true power overlay, you would shift the zx10 graph to the left until 13200 is over 12000 for the gsxr as those are the peaks for each, and that is what your gearing difference for the 2 motors will do. this makes the crossover of the two graphs closer to 8krpm. the difference is actually more dramatic due to the higher rpm peak of the kawi. and if you are wondering, this motor looks well built and very stout and i suspect it will do 13200 all day long. as for header, the header george is running has been the best we have ever run on any motor, kawi, gsxr, cbr etc. i dont think there is much more in it there, but ecu flashing or PC may be able to bump it closer to 200hp. as for motor of the month, it has taken 7 years to come up with something better then the gsxr, and the r1 reigned for several years prior to that. i think it will take quite a few years to really top this. the rest may be able to match it, but beating it is going to take some time.

[Rick Kean]

A new 1L Kawi Engine/Trans-in-a-box costs how many Obama Bucks?

[urbanimports02]

i take it back, if you shift the graph to line up peak power, there is no crossover, the kawi spanks it from the beginning to the end. as for gearing, you likely would not change it. i just remembered that i asked george to look at actual dyno rpm, and the kawi was turning the dyno the same rpm when it was at 13200 when compared to the gsxr at 12k. but that means 140mph will be 12k for the gsxr and 13200 for the zx10, so the graph shift still applies.

ps: this motor will still cost less then a 200hp gsxr, and it is brand new in a box. as for obama bucks, just go finance a new bike, sell off the rest, and default on your loan

[Alex Pate]

Just watch George run a couple pulls on his new toy. The only thing sweeter than his new Christmas present is hearing that kawi sing at 13,500 197hp

[tstarke4]

Is there a significant weight difference between the two engines?

[ghickman]

For those interested I'm currently working on both a wet and dry sump pan for the 2011 ZX10.

Thanks to the generosity of an Apexspeed member I have all the bits to collect needed data to build a proper CAD model before committing this to machined parts.

[VehDyn]

George,

This should be the new IMSA lites engine for L2.

Ken

[RussMcB]

It would be interesting to hear who is happy about a new more powerful engine and who is not.

My guesses:

In the 'happy about it" group:

• Someone considering entering the class and doesn't yet own an FB race car
• Car builders and pro fabricators
• Engine builders
• Current FB competitors with large budgets looking for a significant advantage over competitors

Not too happy about it:

• Current owners/drivers with insufficient budget to change engine styles

Not sure:

• Pro F1000 Series
• SCCA

[Ivinsea]

How difficult is it to modify the Kawasaki wiring harness?

I think the simplicity of the K7/K8 Suzuki electronics is a plus.

I understand the Honda and BMW electronics are extremely difficult to defeat. The Honda installation required an aftermarket ECU with custom programming and custom harness; the BMW required using the entire stock harness with the dash and all the sensors and even the key and anti-theft. I am not sure that installing an entire wiring harness from turn signals to kickstand is the right way to go...

[10rmotor]

A few airbox mods, pistons, rods, and an ecu remap and over 200 Hp should be easily achieved in DSR trim. Thats awesome George! A properly designed dry sump pan should get 3 hp easy.

[Brandon Dixon]

I may be the only one with this opinion, but I think that controlling the hp in this class would be a good idea. The performance of the cars is significant with 180 hp. We have been closing the performance gap to FA over time. The development of the FB cars will continue and the gap to FA may get smaller, even at 180 hp.

A 200hp FB car will significantly close that gap to FA, and I would expect to have a higher terminal velocity than an FA. Is that what everyone else wants? I have to admit that it sounds like fun, but doesn't sound like a great idea and I can see a few potential problems.

Just an opinion, and it's not coming from the self interest of keeping my GSXR competitive. I'll switch if I have to, I bought into an open engines class after all. I just think that we need to decide how fast we want the cars to be?

[starkejt]

Someone please let me know when a Kawasaki or BMW lasts a race distance when lugging around a car.

[Christopher Crowe]

These cars, at 200 hp, would be going very, very fast. Given the genisis of most FB chassis -- FF and FC -- this would get kinda dangerous.

Yeah, back in the day, there were the space-frame F/A5000 cars with hell, 500+ hp. But of course those cars killed people.

180-185 hp in the current FB cars seems okay. But getting into the 200-200+ range... well, I think then I'd be a proponent of pinching down the intakes.

Wonder what the future holds for stock, mass-produced 1000cc bike engines...

[DonArm]

Someone please let me know when a Kawasaki or BMW lasts a race distance when lugging around a car.