Kent Flywheel ring gear/starter headache

[Will Velkoff]

Ok so long story short, I put a brand new High Strength Ring Gear on my Crossle w/ Kent power, as the old one was all chewed up and the car would not start. So had a machine shop put the new ring gear on the flywheel, and I put the entire back half of the car together including a fairly new Tilton Super Starter w/ a 9 tooth starter gear.

About 20-25 starts later, the ring gear is shredded again and the car will no longer start. So I take everything apart again and see that in fact the teeth on the ring gear are all shaved down and the starter will catch a few teeth then skip/miss the ring gear.

So, considering a brand new High Strength ring gear got trashed so quickly I'm going to say the starter gear is incorrect. Does anyone know what tooth count starter gear I need for this ring gear?

Ring gear: 10.00" ID, 110 tooth, high strength (Pegasus # 163-07)
Starter: Tilton Super Starter, 9 tooth starter gear

Next question, the standard ring gear is $100 cheaper than the high strength one, should I bother getting the high strength one again? What is everyone else running? I'd like to save the $100 if possible but I won't cheap out if I have to have the high strength one.

Anyone have a new ring gear laying around that I could buy?

Thank you in advance, this is quite frustrating.

[Tom Valet]

Will, a 110 tooth flywheel uses a 9 tooth starter gear, so there is something else going on in your car, possibly the starter is not properly aligned/mounted? Or maybe the correct tooth count but not the proper sized gear on the starter? You also have to have the correct size and pitch of gear in addition to the number of teeth.

[Tom Valet]

Will, read through this thread for more ideas about what could be wrong:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...=starter+tooth

[Will Velkoff]

Thank you Tom. From watching the starter engage, I know the depth is correct, as the starter gear is flush with the flywheel when cranking. Other than that, there is no other way to align it as the adapter plate is doweled and bolted to the block, and the starter is bolted to the adapter plate.

Just did some poking around on Tiltons site and they offer a 10 and 12 pitch version of the 9 tooth.

So the 9 tooth is correct, but I bet the pitch is wrong. How do I know which pitch goes with the standard 110 tooth ring gear? Either way I will be calling Tilton in the morning to confirm.

[BWC54]

See Craig Taylor's post

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...ighlight=pitch

[BWC54]

Other than that, there is no other way to align it as the adapter plate is doweled and bolted to the block, and the starter is bolted to the adapter plate.

Tilton makes a shim kit. There is a specific distance the pinion is supposed to be away from the ring gear. I think it's .100"

[Jerry B.]

As Tom sez you do have the rite combination of ring gear and starter pinion gear.

There are 10" id x 110 tooth flywheel ring gears that are beveled one side, both sides, or no bevel. Using a Tilton "super starter" (which is an Hitachi based piece) you can use any of the above because the pinion gear has a bevel...unlike the Lucas starter which pinion has no bevel and must use a beveled tooth ring gear on the engagement side. The usual suspects market ring gears....Pegasus, Dave Bean and JAE.

You might have an engagement issue, either the pinion gear throw is too deep OR not deep enough....or the engagement distance from pinion teeth to ring gear teeth is too minimal. You want to either pull the pinion rearward into the ring gear and see how deep, and also the engagement distance (radial distance) which should be the diameter of a paper clip or disassemble the starter and use just the drive end housing, Tilton adapter, and pinion gearset ...(which might be the easier way).

The Pinion gear at rest should have a clearance of about .060" forward of the ring gear face. Use shims internally in the starter adapter to case if needed to get the end play right. the throw distance of the pinion is controlled internally in the starter and is usually ok for most ring gear widths.

I get shims from Pro-Line in Parker, AZ. at the friendly price. Ron builds Hitachi based and PMGR starters. (928)669-6411. If you cant slide a paper clip between the root and top of the teeth then you have to elongate one or both of the starter bolt holes to the bell adapter and move the starter away fron the ring gear. When finished you might want to use an eccentric bushing(s) in the starter nose adapterholes that you elongated so the starter wont move on you. Most of the bell adapters are not even close in the starter pocket area.

[kea]

Will,
Are the three starter gears that Tilton offfers, all the same OD?

[Will Velkoff]

Will,
Are the three starter gears that Tilton offfers, all the same OD?

No, per an old post from Craig Taylor, the 9 tooth, 10 pitch gear measures out to be 1.135" and the 9 tooth, 12 pitch gear measures to .990". I have the 10 pitch gear which is the correct starter gear according to Tilton's website.

Did some more digging tonight and took some measurements.

I found that the distance between the engine side face of the ring gear and the starter gear face (with the starter sitting in its retracted position) is about .190", which is way off from the .060" that was recommended in an earlier post. Then I took a pair of needle nose pliers and twisted out the starter gear to simulate the fully extended position. The starter gear is engaged between 1/2-3/4 of the way onto the ring gear in fore/aft position. The starter gear is not pushing all the way through the ring gear, and it is trying to mesh in the center of the ring gear on the beveled leading edge of the starter gear. It looks like the starter gear needs to push a little past the gearbox side face of the ring gear so the beveled leading edge clears past and you have straight tooth to straight tooth engagement.

Also, measured the distance from the root of the tooth on the ring gear to the end of the starter gear tooth, and came up with approx. .135-.150, which is very far away. It failed the paper clip test recommended by a long shot.

So from all this, I've gathered that the starter gear needs to be shimmed about .100"-.130", and the starter holes need to be made larger so I can slide the starter closer to the ring gear by about .060-.075".

Last thing to look at is the pitch on the starter gear. It still doesn't feel right to me, but maybe it'll clean up and mesh properly with a fresh ring gear and everything aligned properly.

I've attached some photos, take a look and let me know if there are any other thoughts/suggestions.

[Don Denomme]

Forget what you hear or read about a Tilton starter not needing a beveled ring gear. We had starter issues on two customer cars (VanDiemen and Piper) with Tilton Super Starters grinding the teeth on the ring gear. Turns out that the ring gears were installed incorrectly for maximum engement. Looking from the starter side of the motor, the bevel on the starter teeth closest to the ring gear are on the bottom. The teeth on the starter side of the ring gear should be facing up. This allows the teeth to more easily mesh and gives maximum tooth-to-tooth contact on the flat surfaces of both gears.

We had to remove both flywheels and reverse both ring gears. The ring gears with bevels on both sides of the teeth is required to make this fix. Starters have been working smoothly ever since. Review the attached file for details.

Don

[kea]

My suggestion, get a larger (OD) gear, even if the tooth count is more.
We ran our Reynards on a 9 tooth gear for years, something made in England. Those became hard (and expensive) to get. So we sourced a similar 9 tooth gear, used it for many years, but it was noisy and sometimes didn't last very long (probably had more to do with the support bearing in the case in question). A customer came in one day and supplied his own gear, for me to make a starter gear/shaft for his EuroSwift, it had 11 teeth. When done, it ran quieter than the 9 tooth we had been using. So as a test, I made one for his son's 88 FC Reynard. We have gone that route ever since. Both of these 2 Ltr. engines (and most used in that era Reynards) had the 110 tooth F/Ford ring gears.
I also believe in using a ring gear with a starting ramp, facing the side in which the starter gear engages.

[Will Velkoff]

Forget what you hear or read about a Tilton starter not needing a beveled ring gear. We had starter issues on two customer cars (VanDiemen and Piper) with Tilton Super Starters grinding the teeth on the ring gear. Turns out that the ring gears were installed incorrectly for maximum engement. Looking from the starter side of the motor, the bevel on the starter teeth closest to the ring gear are on the bottom. The teeth on the starter side of the ring gear should be facing up. This allows the teeth to more easily mesh and gives maximum tooth-to-tooth contact on the flat surfaces of both gears.

We had to remove both flywheels and reverse both ring gears. The ring gears with bevels on both sides of the teeth is required to make this fix. Starters have been working smoothly ever since. Review the attached file for details.

Don

Don,

I took a look at your diagram and it looks as if my setup if effectively acting the same way, just reversed of what your picture shows. If you look closely at my attached photos, you should be able to confirm that the bevel on the ring gear is meeting with the bevel on the starter gear. If you could confirm as a fresh set of eyes that'd be great.

[Will Velkoff]

My suggestion, get a larger (OD) gear, even if the tooth count is more.
We ran our Reynards on a 9 tooth gear for years, something made in England. Those became hard (and expensive) to get. So we sourced a similar 9 tooth gear, used it for many years, but it was noisy and sometimes didn't last very long (probably had more to do with the support bearing in the case in question). A customer came in one day and supplied his own gear, for me to make a starter gear/shaft for his EuroSwift, it had 11 teeth. When done, it ran quieter than the 9 tooth we had been using. So as a test, I made one for his son's 88 FC Reynard. We have gone that route ever since. Both of these 2 Ltr. engines (and most used in that era Reynards) had the 110 tooth F/Ford ring gears.
I also believe in using a ring gear with a starting ramp, facing the side in which the starter gear engages.

Interesting idea. I see a 12T and 15T pinion kit from Taylor, might be worth looking into. Do you know where your customer got the 11T gear from?

[kea]

I don't know, but he brought me extras, which I use for Reynard's. But, I think they were retained on the OE starter, in a different manner than what I see in your picture.

[john f]

No, per an old post from Craig Taylor, the 9 tooth, 10 pitch gear measures out to be 1.135" and the 9 tooth, 12 pitch gear measures to .990". I have the 10 pitch gear which is the correct starter gear according to Tilton's website.

Did some more digging tonight and took some measurements.

I found that the distance between the engine side face of the ring gear and the starter gear face (with the starter sitting in its retracted position) is about .190", which is way off from the .060" that was recommended in an earlier post. Then I took a pair of needle nose pliers and twisted out the starter gear to simulate the fully extended position. The starter gear is engaged between 1/2-3/4 of the way onto the ring gear in fore/aft position. The starter gear is not pushing all the way through the ring gear, and it is trying to mesh in the center of the ring gear on the beveled leading edge of the starter gear. It looks like the starter gear needs to push a little past the gearbox side face of the ring gear so the beveled leading edge clears past and you have straight tooth to straight tooth engagement.

Also, measured the distance from the root of the tooth on the ring gear to the end of the starter gear tooth, and came up with approx. .135-.150, which is very far away. It failed the paper clip test recommended by a long shot.

So from all this, I've gathered that the starter gear needs to be shimmed about .100"-.130", and the starter holes need to be made larger so I can slide the starter closer to the ring gear by about .060-.075".

Last thing to look at is the pitch on the starter gear. It still doesn't feel right to me, but maybe it'll clean up and mesh properly with a fresh ring gear and everything aligned properly.

I've attached some photos, take a look and let me know if there are any other thoughts/suggestions.

Check the mounting plate on the end of the starter motor. Make sure that the motor is off-set the .040" twards the crank center line. There is a mounting plate from Tilton, Drawing number 5081, p/n 54-10030, dated 7/14/06. Pegasus sells this, p/n 1158. This will move the pinion into proper alignment. As a side note, the starter pinion is a 9 tooth, 10 pitch that is used in a 280Z,300ZX Turbo, Nissan Z24, D21, 210 plus a few more.

john f

[Will Velkoff]

John,

Shouldn't my starter have the mounting flange you are mentioning? When I searched it on Pegasus, it is saying that it is the flange directly off the FF Super Starter.

But just to rule it out I will pull up the drawing and measure mine.

Thanks for your input

[john f]

Will:

I had a starter with a 3 hole mount plate but it did not have the .040" off-set machined into it. It also was some what bent and buggered up enough to really screw the alignment up. After calling Tilton to find out what was going on I've had no problems with my starter engaging properly. As a side note, make sure to lock-tite or safety wire the screws that hold the motor on. When you drive over the armature it tends to get the car a little loose!

john f

[provamo]

i wonder if the Fit drivers are going to be discussing starter problems in 2050 LOL

[Will Velkoff]

Next question:

What starters are you guys running and could recommend to me? One possibility is selling the Tilton and going to a more original style starter that would fit better and require no modification. Not sure what my options are besides the Lucas that Pegasus sells.

Thanks

[john f]

Next question:

What starters are you guys running and could recommend to me? One possibility is selling the Tilton and going to a more original style starter that would fit better and require no modification. Not sure what my options are besides the Lucas that Pegasus sells.

Thanks

WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU DO THAT???????

john f

[scorp997]

If you are going to consider a Denso style starter, I have one but I really need the Tilton style to clear my frame rails. I'm about to start modifying mine to fit my application, but I would rather get a Tilton to save the headaches.

PM me if you are interested.
-John

Next question:

What starters are you guys running and could recommend to me? One possibility is selling the Tilton and going to a more original style starter that would fit better and require no modification. Not sure what my options are besides the Lucas that Pegasus sells.

Thanks

[DanW]

I have one of Marc Bushman's Toyota/Denso based starters. The weak areas in all starters are the solenoid and clocking for position to avoid interference. As you have found locating the gear to the ring gear is very important too.

Marc builds new starters to your needs, including modifying the solenoid so it will live up to the vibration and abuse. He really helped me get the location correct on mine and fitting where I was dealing with a complete lack of clearance to the block and chassis. Tell him the satisfied ApexSpeed customers sent you.

As far as your existing ring gear, it looks just like the one I pulled from my car after life with a Lucas starter.

Marc Bushman 630-279-8834

[steve zemke]

Looking at your ring gear picture I would say you had tooth tip to tooth root interference. Looking at your two pictures of the ring gear and starter pinion gear engaged I would say you have too much root to tip clearance. Either way you are not working what should be the active parts of the gears. Set the root to tip clearance at .030"" -0.040" and you should be fine. I just changes out a starter that was very noisy and did not always engage correctly. Made the worse starter noise I ever heard. My brohter in law suggested I use a large paper clip as a distance gauge from tip to root.

[Will Velkoff]

So it looks like this has been solved for now.

Per a discussion with Dan over at Tilton, he recommended I remove both shims in the starter to have the depth within tolerance. Then, both him and Marc Bushman recommended I slot the starter to get the movement I needed. So I slotted the lower mounting hole by about 1/8" and got it aligned pretty much perfect. I aimed for the .015-.025" backlash recommended by Tilton and was able to achieve that. Grinded a paper clip to act as my measuring tool, and checked it all the way around and it seemed to be good. Put the plugs back in it and cranked it 360* and not one skip or chatter. The car has never started so quiet before. Tomorrow I think I'm going to deburr the ring gear and starter gear and put it back together. I have very good engagement now and there is plenty of tooth for the starter gear to grab on to.

Thanks for all the suggestions and hopefully this will help someone else in the future.

BTW, Marc did suspect that the adapter plate had taken many shots throughout it's life, which caused the huge misalignment.

I have one of Marc Bushman's Toyota/Denso based starters. The weak areas in all starters are the solenoid and clocking for position to avoid interference. As you have found locating the gear to the ring gear is very important too.

Marc builds new starters to your needs, including modifying the solenoid so it will live up to the vibration and abuse. He really helped me get the location correct on mine and fitting where I was dealing with a complete lack of clearance to the block and chassis. Tell him the satisfied ApexSpeed customers sent you.

As far as your existing ring gear, it looks just like the one I pulled from my car after life with a Lucas starter.

Marc Bushman 630-279-8834

Funny you mention it, was given Marc's number by another friend yesterday, sent him an email with the pics and he gave me a ring this evening when I was working on the car. Marc and the Tilton engineers were both very helpful in helping me troubleshoot.

[Grant Burford]

The problem here is you have the 110 tooth ring gear installed what is needed is a 135 or 132 which was used on the later ford cars and post 90VDs and is square cut, also it is slightly larger in od which also assists with better meshing and because the tooth depth is smaller due to the extra number of teeth (25) it also is a plus.
The reason I know this is because just today I fixed exactly the same problem on my Royale RP21, but be careful that you choose the matching flywheel/ring id size when purchasing ( Pegasus do not list then)as they come in 2 sizes but check on Ebay as they are listed by many other suppliers.