JJLudemann's Design Thread

[JJLudemann]

Jim
Mystery solved...You've got one of the improved pans then.

Fantastic! I wasn't looking forward to having to replace the pan again, since it would have taken a couple of weeks and well over $1000 with shipping and duties. Progress is being made in a forward direction again. I installed the engine, the rear spring/damper crossmember, and the rear springs and dampers today. Also posted an update on Youtube:

Formula 1000 Race Car Build Update 5

Thanks for the help. I'll post a link to your oil pans on my blog.

-Jim

[JJLudemann]

...and the oil pressure relief valve goes "o" ring side in first (up) in the location that in the pic currently has the little double o ringed collar piece that connected to the stock pan tunnel.
It's directly rearward of the oil filter.
Go ahead and measure from the bottom of the crankcase to the bottom of the pickup, then compare to the depth of the wet sump pan.
I believe the gap you are wanting here is about 3/16".
Sometimes the pickups are not long enough and you give up capacity that you shouldn't have too.

Thanks Glenn. I'll have to do that next time the engine is out of the car. First goal is to just get the thing rolling under its own power. I figure there will be many revisions after that.

-Jim

[JJLudemann]

I'm ready to try to fire up the engine! 2007/8 GSX-R1000 that's been stored for at least three years... Before I do, what am I forgetting? Any horror stories about first starts, check lists, whatever would be welcome. The engine's in the car, wiring is done, oil, oil filter, spark plugs, coolant all in. I removed the spark plugs, put 5cc of motor oil in each cylinder, tilted the engine in all directions, hand cranked the engine with a wrench a few times... The engine turns over with the start button, robustly. I can read all the ECU parameters with my laptop PC, but was surprised to find that doesn't include oil pressure. I guess there's just a yes/no switch, which so far has only indicated underpressure during my cranking. How fast should the oil pressure warning light go out? If it doesn't go out, when should I abort?

Thanks in advance,

-Jim

[Wren]

This thread sums up the engine install information pretty well:

http://apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59100

There are some plugs up top that you can crack while you crank the engine over (no plugs) and wait to see oil come out of. Seeing oil seep from those plugs indicates that it is well oiled.

[glenn cooper]

STOP!
Go to the sticky thread in F1000 General "Engine Install Checklist" and follow the directions to attain prelubing and ultimately, oil pressure.

I didn't read anything in your description that indicated you are ready to fire off the engine.

[JJLudemann]

Thanks Glenn & Wren for the responses.

I removed the spark plugs, then removed the hose from the outlet side of the oil cooler. I cranked the engine and watched bubbles come up out of the cooler, and eventually a solid flow of oil with no bubbles. I reattached the oil line, but unmounted the oil cooler so it could be placed lower than the sight glass, then removed the bolt above header #1. I cranked the engine until oil came out of the hole, then replaced and tightened the bolt. Now when I crank the engine for a couple of seconds the little oil-can icon on the stock instrument cluster goes out. That means I have pressure, right?

Can I start it now, please, please???

I have to be extra careful as this engine is now made of unobtanium, even more than in the US-- Thailand has wisely (if you catch my drift) chosen to forbid all imports of used motorcycle parts.

Thanks,

-Jim

[glenn cooper]

Well it SOUNDS like you are, but I am not familiar with the stock bike dash.
Do you NOT have an actual Oil Pressure sensor, plumbed into an oil galley that you can get a reading from?
The fact that oil is dripping from the check bolt above the #1 header is a good sign, so I would say "Yes", but really, really, REALLY like to go with a dedicated OP line, to a sensor, to a dash.

Also you mentioned that the engine had sat for 3 years.
If that engine was a fresh build, with a very quality assembly lube, it MIGHT still have some actual lubricant remaining on bearing surfaces.
One of the reasons I ABHOR the use of motor oil as an engine assembly lube, is because it's so NOT an engine assembly lube!
Motor oil will drain away completely in short order, say a couple of months.

Not trying to scare you, but I had to comment on the engine dormancy time frame.

[JJLudemann]

Well it SOUNDS like you are, but I am not familiar with the stock bike dash.
Do you NOT have an actual Oil Pressure sensor, plumbed into an oil galley that you can get a reading from?
The fact that oil is dripping from the check bolt above the #1 header is a good sign, so I would say "Yes", but really, really, REALLY like to go with a dedicated OP line, to a sensor, to a dash.

Also you mentioned that the engine had sat for 3 years.
If that engine was a fresh build, with a very quality assembly lube, it MIGHT still have some actual lubricant remaining on bearing surfaces.
One of the reasons I ABHOR the use of motor oil as an engine assembly lube, is because it's so NOT an engine assembly lube!
Motor oil will drain away completely in short order, say a couple of months.

Not trying to scare you, but I had to comment on the engine dormancy time frame.

As always, your advice is worth its weight in gold. Most things are easier in Thailand, but some things are way harder. Like finding an oil pressure gauge, for instance... I had no idea where to even start, other than ordering from Ebay and waiting, so I learned how to say "oil pressure gauge" in Thai and called up a Thai mechanic friend of mine who I met one day when I noticed the boss of the biggest fastener store in town asking him for advice. My partner had the car, so he even came and picked me up, took me to the right store, translated for me and everything. There's no such thing here as a handheld gauge, which is what I wanted for testing, but I did find a dash-type gauge and sender set with instructions in English. Somehow I had known they were going to try to sell me a 1/8" BSP tap, so I had checked on the Internet beforehand to find that they are NOT compatible. Sure enough, that's what they did and we had to go to a second and third store to find one. I was amazed to find that my Thai friend knows that BSP has a 55 degree tooth cut angle while NPT is 60 degrees. I told him he's probably the only one in Thailand who can pull that off the top of his head. Anyways, I machined up an adapter to go from the main oil gallery to the 1/8" NPT sender unit from some 7075 aluminum I have lying around.

Screwed and soldered everything together, and voila! no reading on the gauge during cranking . This gave me the opportunity to learn how oil pressure senders work-- in this case an output resistance that varies from 240 to 33 ohms across the two output pins, which I checked with my brand-new multimeter while blowing air into the sensor. I can see the resistance varying, so I checked the gauge by putting resistors across the leads, and it reads wonderfully also. So now we have a known good gauge setup, and screw it, it's time to start the engine. Crankcrankcrank nothing. Error code C42 P1650, ignition switch abnormal. Uh-oh, that's the dreaded immobilizer error. Did my Ebay supplier slap a European ECU on my American engine??? A little more digging and I find the American ECUs have an anti-theft system too, consisting of: a resistor. I guess Suzuki doesn't have that high an opinion of US thieves. Anticipating a scenario like this, I had pre-ordered an assortment of every resistor value known to man. Slapped one in there in the right place, and the error code is now "past" according to the ECU. Yippee, let's fire it up! Crankcrankcrank nothing .

So I called my Thai racer friend to tell him showing the car at the Bangkok Motor Show (later this month) is a no-go, and he gives me a lead: Need to bleed the fuel line to the fuel rail. In the process I check the fuel pump and inadvertently find out that it pumps like a {bleep}. So after wiping down and airing out the shop, making sure no electric motors or other items that operate by means of sparks shooting around inside them can start at an inopportune time, I try again. Crankcrankcrank nothing. Okay, lets see if we have a fuel problem... I put 1cc of fuel in each throttle body and crank it again. Victory! , sort of. The engine finally comes to life, clears its throat, and says, and I quote, "putt". This is what we in the computer industry call a "proof of concept".

But it was a good "putt", enough to show pressure on the gauge, and enough to turn out the oil pressure light on the dash. So we have oil pressure!

So I think I still have air trapped in the fuel rail, as I can't imagine all the fuel injectors got clogged at the same time, or that the electronics driving them wouldn't report an error if they all went non-functional simultaneously. Does anybody have any advice, like how long I might need to crank it, or should I try to open the joint in the middle of the fuel rail, or??? I suppose the ultimate solution might be to remove the fuel rail and drill the end for a bleed screw, but I'm squeamish about adding any additional failure points to anything Suzuki did w.r.t. to fuel. Not burning to death is a thing with me.

Oh, and by the way, it's not me being lazy that's making this slow. My daughter's been in the hospital for most of the past month. I need some good news.

Thanks in advance,

-Jim

[glenn cooper]

OK, so first off - Very sorry to hear of your daughter's condition.
I hope it's something the Thai Doc's can get sorted...


A few things come to mind - It sounds as if you have a stock Suzuki harness that has not been modified by someone that really knows what to do to it, ie George Dean, etc...

There are a few things that need done, one of which is the resistor you mentioned, as well as the sidestand switch, the clutch switch, the TIP(over) switch.

Unless all mods are done, you'll be pulling hair out.

Another thing - Have you had the injectors cleaned, or at least tested to ensure they have not clogged/gummed up from sitting, or even possibly sitting in ethanolated gasoline from US. They may very well be gummed up.
You can pull the fuel rail, and secure the injectors to the rail so they don't come flying out w/ 45 psi fuel pressure behind them, and hold over a plastic pail and see if they spray while cranking - kinda crude, but you gotta work with what you got.

Are the sparkplugs wet while turning over the engine?
If you spray starting fluid, and the engine fires off, but will only continue to run with repeated sprays - no fuel getting to injectors.

What is your fuel pressure set at, anyway? Needs to be around 45psi.

[Brandon Dixon]

Another thing - Have you had the injectors cleaned, or at least tested to ensure they have not clogged/gummed up from sitting, or even possibly sitting in ethanolated gasoline from US. They may very well be gummed up.

^ This. I don't think that the used injectors worked on any engine that I ever had that sat for more than a couple of months.

[petawawarace]

Its kinda funny, but I'm having the same problems with a ZX-10R motor that I'm putting in my Car. I'm not sure about the Suzuki, but the ZX10 has a troubleshooting mode. Just ground a certain wire and the FI light flashes codes out. When I first started, I had 3 or 4 codes. Only major one was the Cam sensor that had been damaged in the crash (why I got the motor). I really dug into the wiring and came up with a few important things.

The clutch sensor is only an issue if your not in neutral. But your neutral switch must work. If the neutral light is on your dash, you should be fine.

I did have to add the resistor to the ignition switch aswell. I also had to order the tip-over switch as I didn't get one with the engine. I had cleared all of the codes, but just like you, I could only get fire on spray. I used a stethoscope to listen to the injectors...nothing. I did test the signal going to my fuel injectors, and there didn't appear to be any. Which lead me to believe that my ECU is likely toast from the crash. This is where I left it as I am a year or more away from needing a running motor. I just wanted to make sure it ran, so I can continue building the rest of the car.

Not sure if any of that helps, but a service manual for the bike should provide you with a way to test the injectors.

[James Hill]

Keep up the good work petawawaracer

[JJLudemann]

Thanks to lots of people here on ApexSpeed, I have good news to report. It runs!

First, here's a fabrication video that might be of some interest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1186...PysylKk3pou8MA

Then, a video of the trials and tribulations of debugging the electronics and engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lclA...PysylKk3pou8MA

And finally, a short video of success:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA7ZW...PysylKk3pou8MA

Daughter's out of the hospital and has no more symptoms. Good news all around!

Thanks,

-Jim

[formulasuper]

Excellent! Congrats.

[provamo]

after years of following your thread it was great to see the fruition of your effort, you did it!

(and i just got the sound to work on my tv LOL)

[glenn cooper]

It's Aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive!

Pretty cool, and even cooler news about your daughter.

That thing looks the business.

How many teeth on that rear sprocket?!!

GC

[DWickman]

Well done Jim on your achievement!

Desmond

[JJLudemann]

It's Aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive!

Pretty cool, and even cooler news about your daughter.

That thing looks the business.

How many teeth on that rear sprocket?!!

GC

Right now it's got 17 front, 50 rear. I have 16, 15, and 14 front in stock, but have to order blanks from England if I want to change the rear. I went with 50 on the rear as that's the biggest it'll ever be, and I wanted to check clearances. My home track (Bira Circuit) is pretty tight, but the new Chang International Circuit is much faster. Should I go ahead and order some smaller rear sprockets?

Thanks,

-Jim

[nhmcclure]

17/50 with a 22" rear tire at 12.5K is 141 MPH. I think its a good place to start.

Shawn

[JJLudemann]

A while ago I recall seeing a comment on ApexSpeed that said all the frame tubes on the cockpit sides must be a minimum of 1" x 0.080". I remember it referred to a section of the rules other than where you would normally go for that information, but now I can't find it. As I read the GCR, all tubes that connect the main roll hoop forward braces to both the front roll hoop and the main floor rails must be at least that size, but other tubes are not specified. Here' s the applicable section of the GCR:

"C. Roll Cage Bracing
1. The main hoop must have 2 forward braces extending from the
hoop and attached to the frame, monocoque, or front hoop.
Braces must be attached as near as possible to the top of the
hoop but must not be more than 6 inches below the top and
at an included angle of at least 30 degrees. If these braces do
not extend to the front hoop, an additional brace or gusset (14
gauge - .078” minimum thickness) must be installed between
the lower frame rail and the upper frame rail at the point of
attachment of the forward hoop brace. If these braces do not
extend to the front hoop, an additional brace or gusset must
be installed at the point of attachment to the main rear hoop or
lower frame rail or other major frame member in such a manner
as to reinforce the attachment point to help prevent collapse
of the frame rail at the point of attachment. These tubes shall
be 1” x .080” minimum and gussets shall be 14 gauge - .078”
minimum thickness."

So which of the tubes in the attached photo need to be 1" x 0.080"? I don't want to prejudice the answer by saying what I think first, other than it clearly includes A, B, & C...

Thanks,

-Jim

[JJLudemann]

It's in FB Preparation Rules 2.C.2:

"The material used for the chassis braces in this area shall be at least equivalent to the roll hoop brace material."

So the answer is "all of them, Katie." Hard to find, there, hidden under "Reinforced body". If this ever gets rewritten, it should be moved from 2.C.2 to 2.C so it's easier to find.

-Jim

[S Lathrop]

I will suggest that you will not find many or likely any cars racing in SCCA that meet the letter of this rule.

For years I have made the tube "C" in your drawing of .080 4130. When I originally designed my car in 1993 the rule just said that bracing in that area needed to be roll bar material. I have that brace/frame tube in that area to provide extra support to protect the drivers pelvic area.

We did have a crash that was precipitated by running over an axel shaft that was then kicked up, damaged the front suspension, then entered the radiator opening, hit that brace tube and then penetrated the radiator. The car ended up upside down on the outside of the last turn at Elkhart Lake.

For your design, I would make tube "C" roll bar brace material. On my cars, the tubes surrounding the cockpit opening are 1.125 x .080. I would recommend that you do the same.

[R. Pare]

Our take on this always was that "at least equivalent" meant that the tube had to have at least the same strength - whatever that meant exactly since there are different "equivalents" you can define - and the easiest thing was to state that it had to have at least the equivalent in cross-sectional wall area. With that then, if you wanted to use a rectangular tube ( like VD did in a lot of their cars), as long as it has the same cross-sectional wall area, it was fine. I tried clarifying that a bit in the FF/FC rewrite, but even that seems to raise a lot of bizarre questions.

[JoeFin]

The roll Hoop "Brace" can be .065 chrome As per the GRC

[S Lathrop]

The roll Hoop "Brace" can be .065 chrome As per the GRC

This is a recent change in the rules. I wrote to the CRB suggesting that this rule not be implemented for FF, FC and FB.

The reason I objected to this change is that in a high stressed situation, a bracing tube that is of smaller wall thickness and smaller diameter would be more prone to fail than if the brace tube and the main hoop where the same wall thicknesses.

I had a roll bar fail at the junction of the main hoop and the brace 2 forward facing braces. The braces were 1.0 dia., .080 wall, 4130. The main hoop was 1.375x.080 4130 as well. The main hoop failed just above the welds for the braces. The shearing force was to the rear of the car. The driver walked away from this with just the paint on his helmet scratched. The remainder of the main hoop structure was in tact and served its intended purpose. This was a FV and not a FB.

With a .065 wall tube bracing the main hoop that is .080, I fear that the failure point of the structure might be some where in the brace and thus closer to the driver's head.

An other way of saying this is that with uneven material thickness on either side of a potentially critical weld, the forces will not be evenly distributed and the weaker side of the weld will likely fail first.

Just because the rules say you can, does not mean that that is the best way to do something.

[R. Pare]

.065 wall braces - I wonder who the idiot was who put that request forward ( why it got approved). Never a smart idea to downgrade safety items.

[JoeFin]

I fear that the failure point of the structure might be some where in the brace and thus closer to the driver's head.

.

Thanks for sharing that information from a well seasoned car builder

[Clip6]

Jim I've subscribed on Youtube and can't wait to see your progress.
Thanks for sharing.

[Jnovak]

.065 wall braces - I wonder who the person was who put that request forward ( why it got approved). Never a smart idea to downgrade safety items.

This happened as a result of an FEA analysis supplied by a competitor who is an F500 racer. Apparently there have been a number of F500 cars built with 1" x .065" wall tubes as the forward facing braces and he wanted them to be legal if possible. The FEA indicated that the 1" braces were adequate to the required loads.

Personally I do not agree with this change in the rules.

PLEASE READ THIS!

"Formula and single seat Sports Racing cars under 1500 lbs. may use bracing with a minimum dimension of 1.0” diameter by .080” wall thickness or Chromoly 4130 1.0” diameter by .065” wall thickness. F500 cars up to 875 pounds may use 1020 DOM mild steel roll cage bracing with a 1.0” diameter by .065 wall thickness."

[R. Pare]

Actually, if you read the paragraphs carefully that have the new inserts, they make no sense - it doesn't look like they actually allow what everyone thinks they do - the forward bracing on the main hoop still has to have a .080 minimum wall thickness, NOT .065.

Poorly written, to say the least.

[JJLudemann]

Thanks for all the responses, everybody! I had not seen that rule change that allows thinner chrome-moly bracing.

As I read it, the main roll hoop forward braces must still be 1" x 0.080" all the way from the main roll hoop to the floor and from the main roll hoop to the front roll hoop due to the first paragraph in 9.4.5.C.1, unless that statement is meant to be overridden by the new text in the second paragraph. If they want the new text to rule, they should remove the words "tubes shall be 1” x .080” minimum and" from the first paragraph. I would have to guess that they intended for the second paragraph to rule because otherwise the rule change isn't really a rule change at all. That also leaves the question of which paragraph the FB rule is referring to when it says "The material used for the chassis braces in this area shall be at least equivalent to the roll hoop brace material" when talking about the cockpit sides.

Sigh...

-Jim

[JJLudemann]

Now on to new business...

What is considered the current hot setup in wheel and tire dimensions? I have 8x13 front and 10x13 rear, but I've heard the rears won't get hot enough and (independent of temperature) cause unnecessary drag. By the way, my Thai racer friend laughed when I said the words "tires won't get hot enough". Usually not a problem here , I guess...

For the first test I have Hoosier 22x9x13 R25 fronts and 22.5x10x13 R25 rears. What would be good starting pressures for these tires? Hoosier says ask the car manufacturer, but that's me.

The car's drivable; all that's left is race prep before the first test.

Thanks,

-Jim

[David Ferguson]

For the first test I have Hoosier 22x9x13 R25 fronts and 22.5x10x13 R25 rears. What would be good starting pressures for these tires? Hoosier says ask the car manufacturer, but that's me.

I would suggest you start with 14psi front, and 15 psi rear. The tires should end up about 19-20 psi all the way around when hot. I suggest bleeding them down to 19-20 psi if they go above that, then let them cool down (ie, several hours or overnight). What ever the cold pressure is would be a good starting pressure for that particular track.

Good luck with your shakedown.

[S Lathrop]

I specified 7x13 and 9x13 and FC Hoosier tires for my cars. This was the recommendation from Hoosier tire engineers.

All the tires for 8 and 10 inch wheels are designed for cars that weigh 1300 or 1400 lbs.

The wider rims allow the FC?F2000 tires to handle the higher cornering forces that the FB will see. These tires are quite a bit lighter than the larger tires which helps with the low torque engines.

You will be very close to the limit these tires can perform. So don't be surprised that some tuning changes don't produce the results you expect.

I have had customers try the larger wheels and tires without success.

[Jnovak]

I specified 7x13 and 9x13 and FC Hoosier tires for my cars. This was the recommendation from Hoosier tire engineers.

All the tires for 8 and 10 inch wheels are designed for cars that weigh 1300 or 1400 lbs.

The wider rims allow the FC?F2000 tires to handle the higher cornering forces that the FB will see. These tires are quite a bit lighter than the larger tires which helps with the low torque engines.

You will be very close to the limit these tires can perform. So don't be surprised that some tuning changes don't produce the results you expect.

I have had customers try the larger wheels and tires without success.

Steve knows.

[JJLudemann]

I've been keeping my head down just finishing the car, but now it's time to get caught up on blog posting. New posts include:

Video Update 5 Assembly
Video Update 6 More Assembly
Video Update 7 Headers
Video Update 8 Assembly, Fabrication, Electrical System Power-Up
Video Update 9 Debugging the Engine & Electrical System
Plumbing the Oil Cooler
Fabricating the Fuel System
Mounting the ECU
Completing the Chain Tensioner, Rear Sprocket & Shift Linkage
Fabricating the Halfshaft Collars
Installing the Fire System
Foam-Filling the Driver's Head Surround
Fabricating the Chain Guard
Carbon-Fiber Honeycomb Vacuum-Bagged Test Panel

Enjoy!

-Jim

[glenn cooper]

JJ - Pretty cool and very thoroughly documented!

I have to point out a few things that I think will give you problems.
- The drive chain is not going to be happy. Having ONE idler sprocket is bad enough, but the directional changes, chain torque, chain "whip", then throw in a 2nd idler...

When I had a header modded for my RFR, I brought the rear chassis half to my guy and mentioned where the bulkhead would be, and how much room he had to make the bends.
You have the pipes protruding really far out, before they even start to bend down.
You really want as much room between the tubes and the bulkhead as possible.
The collector area looks very close to the oil filter - you definitely want to be able to service that w/o having to pull the header.

I have found that simplification is the best way to go, and also factoring in things like if the ECU is mounted right next to the header (I have actually seen this!) it's probably going to not end well.
The location you have for the ECU will see it get nasty w/ chain lube/oil, etc.
I made a few little 90* alum brkts which were attached to the rearmost airbox screws, and a thin alum plate w/ the double sided velcro to the back of the ECU and a few "insurance zip ties".
The ECU brkt while cool (and right down the pike from me at Lockheed!) and swiss cheesed is a labor intensive and heavy addition to the completed car.

Have you kept an eye on total weight? Do you intend to run the car in a class w/ a weight minimum?

Just a few things that stood out, my FBro.

Good Luck w/ the final build, GC

[Mike Holland]

I am interested in seeing more of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unmf...ure=youtu.be&a

Congrats on the track time

[Tyler Thielmann]

I highly recommend a flat shifter for this car if you don't already have one. Thanks for the great coverage on this entire build!!!

[Chris Livengood]

I've loved this thread since the beginning! Congrats on getting on track!