Road Atlanta Double Nat
Congratulations Coop, for the Sunday win, and Brandon for Saturday's win and a new track record.
What happened during Sunday's race? The lap chart indicates something caused an early checker and involved a lot of cars.
It was a cluster**** of mixed class racing.Originally Posted by RussMcB
You continue to blame this on mixed classes, but since the primary contributor to the incident was a slow (and unpredictable) FA driver, how would you have grouped the cars to eliminate this situation?
If there's a bad driver out there even having one-car classes won't solve it!
In deference to the GT1Vette post, I will not pursue mixed classes but I do know this much - there were slow backmarkers in ALL 6 classes which contributed to the overall race and its unpredictability. Also, the 1st full course caution was for a non contact event. Dempsey, DSR, and running 3rd overall lost his brakes coming down the hill into 10a. Fortunately the gravel trap stopped his forward progress
The 2nd full course caution was a result of an incident near T3 when a DSR spun and was clouted rather heavily by an FE? car. With the amount of debris litering the track and putting turn workers in a compromising situation the race was checkered at 16 laps.
It's not a coincidence that this group has had to be checkered early two years in a row. The corner/top end speeds are all over the place.
Step one is to boot the IT guys and work everything from there.
If there's a bad driver out there, then the stewards need to follow the GCR. He didn't make 120% for Saturday, barely made it for Sunday, and he needed to be bounced out of there.
The driver in question should not have been at a National race. In my opinion SCCA needs a 115% rule for Nationals.
Brandon stepped out Sunday working like 10 second leads. Then the double yellows bunched them together. Brandon stepped out again. Then the double yellows again. Then on the second restart even Brandon will probably admit Coop pulled off one hell of a spectacular move. Brandon got sort of trapped inside. Coop got a better start because he had the knowledge from past experience that if you are a risk taker, you can run wide left. Coop divebombed down the outside and just tucked in front of Brandon about mid turn. Kudos to Brandon for some great driving to keep both of them on the track.
Standing at T1 and watching it was one of those OMG moments you remember for a long time.
Leaders hate restarts, followers are praying for them.
...and what the flying fliver does getting rid of IT have to do with the run group 4 situation?
In any National you are going to see FB and FA combined. The WANKER in FA was the issue, not the run groupings. Read Inge posts all weekend. He was mentioning "Mr. Unpredictable - Wander all over the Track - Wanker" from day 1.
From our vantage point at T1 all weekend we saw the problem he was causing. The incident at T3 in Sunday's race was set up by him blocking the whole track in his run up to T3. The fast cars got stacked up behind him, then the next group of fast cars came in hot up behind into blind T3. ouch.
Waving hands and saying "make it happen" is all well and good, but give me a specific suggestion for the weekend schedule.
Remember per the GCR you've got to offer 70 minutes of practice and qualifying time prior to the two 18-lap races for each run group. You also can't run race engines before 8:00 AM or from 10:00-noon on Sunday, and we strive to get done by 5:00 PM on Sunday afternoon. I also think it's "customer friendly" to offer qualifying sessions on both Satuday and Sunday for the folks that can't take off on Friday.
National car counts this past weekend (from Saturday):
. Group 1 (EP, FP, GTL, HP, SRF) - 26
. Group 2 (SM) - 38
. Group 3 (AS, GT1, GT2, GT3, STO, T1) - 36
. Group 4 (CSR, DSR, FA, FB, FE, FM) - 37
. Group 5 (SSB, SSC, STU, T2, T3) - 31
. Group 6 (F5, FC, FF, FV, S2) - 28
Also remember that booting the IT drivers will raise National entry fees by close to $100 to make up for the lost revenue, but I'm confident no one will complain about such a piddling sum.
Make it happen.
More groups and more paddock space. The clueless FA driver is a problem, but the corner speed difference between the front and the back is still a problem. It gets worse when a mazda and FE have enough horsepower to drive out of the corners hard.
Edit- my problem with mixed class racing is more the general problem with it. It's a shame that there is no place to go with 25-40 cars in the same class at very well run events. The cars don't even have to be FB, maybe they could be FF or FC. Maybe someone will come up with something.
Last edited by Wren; 03.21.11 at 11:37 AM.
In deference to the GT1Vette post, I will not pursue mixed classes but I do know this much - there were slow backmarkers in ALL 6 classes which contributed to the overall race and its unpredictability. Also, the 1st full course caution was for a non contact event. Dempsey, DSR, and running 3rd overall lost his brakes coming down the hill into 10a. Fortunately the gravel trap stopped his forward progress
The 2nd full course caution was a result of an incident near T3 when a DSR spun and was clouted rather heavily by an FE? car. With the amount of debris litering the track and putting turn workers in a compromising situation the race was checkered at 16 laps.
I think there were more wrecks than this.
From my records:
6 green laps (maybe the double yellow came out during the sixth lap?)
4 under the double yellow
3 green laps
2 under double yellow
1 green lap
checker at the end of lap 16
I think there has to have been three separate incidents for it to go down like this. The checker came out at 28:16 into the race so we were not up against the timed limit for the race.
Where have you been the last 5 years? Alabama?
Ever hear of the F2000 Championship Series? and now the F1600 Championship Series?
30 plus cars, all the same class, lots and lots of track time, on great tracks.
And, OBTW, as Butch said, it will cost you more in entry fees to get that lovely situation.
When Brandon puts the zetec in that beautiful Citation, he'll have a great place to run it without FA, FE, FM, etc.
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Maybe SOMEONE? Are you an engineer or a salesman?!?
You want a place to go with 25-40 cars in the same class with very well run events? - check out the F2000 series (and F1600 will probably make those numbers this year as well). Of course you won't be able to run your FB with them (and they only run once a year at Road Atlanta), so until you develop your own series (of convince Rand & Co to add FB) I'm still waiting for YOUR (Wren's) suggestion for a better grouping at an SCCA event.
And yes, I probably will regret posting this tomorrow but this kind of sh!t just p!sses me off. We work our butts off to put on a good event (and we learned a lot that will improve it next year), then we get a yahoo making bold statements about something we have NO control over!
Where have you been the last 5 years? Alabama?
Ever hear of the F2000 Championship Series? and now the F1600 Championship Series?
30 plus cars, all the same class, lots and lots of track time, on great tracks.
And, OBTW, as Butch said, it will cost you more in entry fees to get that lovely situation.
When Brandon puts the zetec in that beautiful Citation, he'll have a great place to run it without FA, FE, FM, etc.
[/color]
I might have heard something about there being a place like that.
Relax. First off, you are getting way too worked up over something that wasn't a shot at you. My comment was only meant about mixed class racing in general. But you pointed the finger at the slow Atlantic as causing most of the problems and that is maybe the only thing you did have complete control over.
Yes, my comment was meant about the pro series and it was directed only at Brandon. I have been annoying him since they started that series to go run at least a partial schedule. FB's clearly aren't eligible and I think the pro series will run the other direction if they ever take a close look at FB, but his car would work fine as an FC, even though they cost more to build.
As for a schedule, I would add the third open wheel/sports racer group that the Buccaneer region runs. You might even pick up a couple of entries as I have seen Billy G and Jacek run both cars in one weekend before.
Wren,
I'm the Competition Director for Atlanta Region. I develop Supps and Schedule that comply with the GCR and fit the track time available to us to run. I "turn the event over" to the Chief Steward on Thursday night and no longer have any control over the operation of the weekend. Enforcing the 120% rule and dealing with problem drivers is done by the stewards, not me. But when you make a statement about the multiple class run groups ****ing up the weekend I take it personally.
We do not have time for seven run groups after lunch on Sunday, so how would you like to structure Sunday's (or the weekend's) schedule to accommodate three groups for single-seaters?
Butch Kummer
Competition Director
Atlanta Region SCCA
"You" is the generic second person plural pronoun denoting the region.
If you shift some things to the left into the time taken for the 90 minute enduro, you could have a shot at making it work, even without making anyone race twice in one day.
I don't want to get drawn too far into this with you as my first comment was just on the nature of SCCA's mixed class racing. It's pretty obvious from the success of the pro series that I'm not the only one who has a problem with it. But, when the top qualifier in the slowest class in a group is 115% of the fast car from the group, it shouldn't be a shock when cars get torn up.
And "you" in my comments are directed toward a specific person that makes blanket statements about what "could" and "should" work without producing an example that DOES work! Until you produce a schedule for the entire weekend that satisfies the requirements of the GCR and Hall County (and has no one racing more than once a day - YOUR suggestion) I will have nothing further to say about this topic.
In regards to the 120% rule, I have found that the only way anything happens with it is if someone goes to the stewards and speaks with them about it, otherwise they continue to let the driver race. I don't think I've ever seen a steward enforce that rule without some pestering from the field. I don't know if it was done in this case, but that's the only way I've ever gotten anything done with that rule.
Also, I didn't think Milka Duno could get a national license!!
SCCA 120% rule
First, it applies only within a class, not within a race group.
Second, I've never, in 25 years of SCCA racing, seen it enforced. The GCR says the Chief Steward may waive the rule - and he always does in my experience.
I sort of understand the thinking in not wanting to 'send someone home'. This is Club Racing after all.
I'd prefer the CS take the driver aside and have a lttle chat about that driver's duty not to get himself or others killed. Maybe the driver would decide that other sports beckon if he got treated to enough of these chats.
[QUOTE]
1992 LRP National an 83 Ralt RT4 got "put in the trailer". I never saw the guy again in ANY racecar.
Where the heck were you?
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
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Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
unsafe drivers
Did any of the other competitiors protest the slower driver? He/she does not have to be in the same class for a driving protest. I have done this myself, actually protested the wrong driver, but it got worked out rather quickly. Relying on the stewards to police the group is just not good sense not will it happen at an SCCA event.
John
Mike that was the RT4 I bought. Since it had run at LRP he had gear charts I used for the 95 national. Imagine my surprise when I was on the rev limiter in 5th comming down the hill. Thats how bloody slow Rudy was !
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Runoffs 1 Gold 3 Silver 3 bronze, 8 Divisional , 6 Regional Champs , 3x Drivers of the year awards
Just to give another side of the SCCA mixed class argument, I don't have a problem with the mixed classes. It seems that the ALMS series and other endurance series regularly put different classes on the track with good success. Having cars of different classes can really add to the intensity and strategy of the race. Having cars 120% of there poll qualifying time in a National event is a problem that should be adressed. Some of the pro series require a driver off pace to plead his case to the stewards to be able to race with the stipulation that a black flag will be shown if the car is in danger of being lapped. Sounds fair to me.......
Or how fast YOU were in that old tanker!
You always put on a good show in that thing
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
Butch,
Can't believe I missed this much fun.
I have never had an issue with your Region or the great job you guys do. Want single run classes F2000. Budget racing show up drive around the obstacles and deal with it. It's not like the slower cars being out there are a surprise.
Oh hell I'm starting to sound like Kevin.
The mind...
[quote=stonebridge20;290259]I was there, I guess, but I don't remember this.
1992 LRP National an 83 Ralt RT4 got "put in the trailer". I never saw the guy again in ANY racecar.
Where the heck were you?
120% rule potential solution:
If a slow driver doesn't doesn't make it with in the 120% lap time in qualifying for the race. Let them start the race and see if their lap times drop to below the required % time. If not let them run until half distance (about the time that the faster cars are going to start lapping them) for race credit then give them theTell them they have a mechanical issue that will not allow them to be allowed back on track for the remainder of the race. Then explain to them they have a loose nut behind the wheel that needs to be repaired.
Video from Sunday
I condensed the Sunday race to 15 minutes and put it on YouTube.
The camera angle turned out to be quite good for the 16th lap, which turned out to be our last one of the race (A T3 crash shortened the race)
What camera?
A Contour HD that I just purchased from Keith Roberts. He gave me some tips to improve the sound for next time.
Video looks better than your previous camera. I got a POV several months ago and promptly set it on the workbench and haven't touched it since.
Things I learned from this video:
1.) Mucha's CSR has roughly 1200 hp
2.) There is a tremendous difference in braking between Brandon's FB and an FE
3.) I couldn't tell much about the pass for the lead on the second restart because the shot was almost completely obscured by Coop's balls
I can't make the contour last. It only worked for 2 sessions out of 10 last weekend.When it does work, it takes beautiful video, but I think they're designed more for the human powered x-games types, not the vibration laden motor-sports that we do....
Holy **** @ 1:55
That little brake check, or at least little lift to keep from running over Decoop, in turn 7 really hurt Brandon. That is one great way to finish a race.
What makes Coop's balls so big is that he still leaves racing room!
Perfect.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
Awesome, Awesome last lap: outside pass, drag racing, off roading!! you guys were like rabid dogs, I loved it!!!
BTW: they were pretty even in the drag race, I thought the citation would have pulled a little, Coop did a great job at putting the RFR on a diet
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