GSXR 1000 Engine Question-loss of power

[Richard Dziak]

As mentioned here on another thread, my GSXR 1000 (2006) seems to have lost power on the upper end. Just can't get above the 85-90 MPH limit.

I am trying to pin point a few items before pulling the engine, crateing it and sending it off to GDRE in Seattle.

Probably a dumb question......but..

I have just installed new Iridium spark plugs.....

Can a low voltage battery cause the engine to have a loss of power due to poor spark plug ignition?

[Keith Roberts]

Yes. I lost a voltage regulator and the symptoms were like you describe.

[starkejt]

Hard to say without seeing/hearing it, but only achieving 85-90 mph is essentially no power. Did this happen suddenly? I'd be looking first at your fuel injectors. Ideally, you should have at least one spare (known clean) set with you at the track. George Dean can clean and check the flow of your injectors. They have tiny orifices and need to be cleaned periodically, even if you are using a 10 micron (nominal) fuel filter. Then I'd be looking at electrical/electronic issues. As Keith said, voltage regulator is one place to look. There is a step by step procedure for testing it in the factory manual. You will need a multimeter with a diode test mode. I'd also be checking the wiring carefully for anything out of the ordinary. Broken wires, bad connections, bad sensors, etc.

[VehDyn]

I heard those voltage regulators can be sensitive to heat and can go tits up over time. Might be something quick to do a swap and test.

[starkejt]

Do you have data? Battery voltage logs will reflect a failing voltage regulator.

[Richard Dziak]

The AIM dash is recording about 11.30 volts.

The engine when running in an idle, sounds very normal.

When I first got the car, it had some electrical issues, but that was quickly resolved by Matt Conrad and his electrical wire guy. I may have to check the wiring at the point of past problems.

I appreciate all the input. Dustin Wright will be traveling over to New Mexico to assist. I just want to make sure we hit all the points of interest before pulling and sending the engine out. Last time out before replacing the in line fuel filter and spark plugs, the engine seemed to lack a bit of power, but once getting over 8000 to 8500 RPM's the engine was like a rocket ship, it really kicked in. Now after new plugs installed, it lacks the upper power and voltage from battery as recorded on AIM dash is about 11.25 to 11.50 volts.

[Jon Jeffords]

When accellerating up to 85 mph, does the engine pull hard all the way to redline in first and second gear?

If the answer is yes, check for a fuel delivery issue. Fuel pressure too low, fuel filter plugged, defective fuel pressure regulator, etc.

If the answer is no, a failing coil will also result in the symptoms you describe. The service manual should provide the resistance specs for both the primary and secondary windings, but beware: even if it passes the resistance check, it still may be bad when subjected to on-track heat and vibration. If it fails the resistance check, the coil is definitely junk. Coils crap out due to heat and vibration; its only a matter of time.

[starkejt]

The AIM dash is recording about 11.30 volts.

The engine when running in an idle, sounds very normal.

When I first got the car, it had some electrical issues, but that was quickly resolved by Matt Conrad and his electrical wire guy. I may have to check the wiring at the point of past problems.

I appreciate all the input. Dustin Wright will be traveling over to New Mexico to assist. I just want to make sure we hit all the points of interest before pulling and sending the engine out. Last time out before replacing the in line fuel filter and spark plugs, the engine seemed to lack a bit of power, but once getting over 8000 to 8500 RPM's the engine was like a rocket ship, it really kicked in. Now after new plugs installed, it lacks the upper power and voltage from battery as recorded on AIM dash is about 11.25 to 11.50 volts.

11.3V when running? At least 2V too low. There are procedures in the service manual for checking every component in your charging system. Generator, voltage regulator, wire somewhere in between, etc.

ETA: Once had voltage that low on track and found melted together wires on the connector pigtail coming off the voltage regulator.

[RussMcB]

Richard, I don't think the following will help much in this case, but thought it was worth mentioning.

A very good habit to get into is a leak-down check after every event. If things are normal, you'll see a a very small increase (or no change at all) each time you test. If you suddenly see a big change then you'll know you have a problem with a valve, piston ring, etc.

In this case, if you knew the results of the last test you could do a leak-down now and discover (or rule out) a mechanical sealing issue.

Good luck.

[Richard Dziak]

OK....after further inspection and after reading that a voltage problem may create a loss of power, I went out and pulled the engine cover.

Last month I installed a new in line gas filter to replace the old. In order to remove the filter I had to remove a few wires, (ground wires) to remove the filter. I noticed tonight that a large thick wire was NOT put back on the car, which appeared to be a ground. Over the past year or so, I have taken lots of photos of the engine compartment. The voltage recorded on the AIM Dash was about 11.30 volts. After connecting the large black wire to the ground where it was when I removed the fuel filter voltage increased to about 14.20 volts on the AIM Dash. I have attached a photo of wire that was left off. Attaching the wire to the ground immediately increased voltage to the engine. Engine sounds much better, very smooth.

Can anybody tell me what the large black wire regulates. Boy do I feel stupid, and this may have solved the problem. Owning these cars is a real learning experience.

This website is worth so much. Thanks to everyone that responded.

[glenn cooper]

They are both ground wires.
The small blk w/ white stripe is the harness ground.
The large diameter blk wire appears to be the chassis to engine ground cable.

Once those electrons had a place to go, all was good!

What is that fuel filter intended for, what micron rating is it?
It might be a good idea to mount that filter with some high density foam, or a large diameter adel clamp to keep it from bouncing around and metal to metal contact.

GC

[starkejt]

Glad you found the likely culprit. Now please neatly zip tie those grounds along the horizontal tube at the bottom and also up the vertical tube so they don't flop around and cause the ring terminals to fail. And I'd also suggest sorting out that yellow crimped splice, which is not appropriate for that small wire.

[Richard Dziak]

Glenn:

Fuel Filter is the same that came on the car. I try to replace parts with the same that came on the car when delivered....

Accel 74720 - Accel DFI High Pressure Fuel Filter
Fuel Filter, Inline Mount, High Pressure (100 psi), 5 Microns, Female 16mm x 1.5, TPI Part Number: ACC-74720

From Summitt Racing....price $38.95

Thanks to all that have responded.
ApexSpeed is great and the f1000 racers are great I will take your advice on the foam.
I will also make sure that I use the tie downs to support the wires as stated by STAREJT.

[Jon Jeffords]

ApexSpeed is great and the f1000 racers are great I will take your advice on the foam.

And us FF guys are pretty cool. Even Russ.

[Richard Dziak]

UPDATE:

.......Dustin Wright from Phoenix Race Works drove over to Las Cruces, from Phoenix for analysis of the car and engine. After analysis of the engine this weekend, the compression levels in the engine cylinders were quite low at just 75 to 80 PSI, down from a normal 150-160 PSI. Data from the car shows 2350 miles and 65.14 hours on the engine since the race car was built. The engine is a 2006 and had zero miles when installed originally. It was originally prepped by GDRE. The engine has been pulled from the chassis, boxed for shipment and will be sent to Seattle, WA to George Dean Racing Engines for a rebuild. From the data this weekend, the piston rings seem to have wore out. So before any catastrophic damage to the engine occurs, I made the decision to have the engine sent out for repair. This event will dash the hopes of any championship with the SWMS race club this year. Racing, as well open track days will be severely limited for 2011. I am hoping that I will be able to attend perhaps 2 race weekends this year. This setback is all part of racing. I will update the blog here once I get the evaluation from the engine builder in Seattle.

Also, in regards to shipping the engine.....I have found that perhaps the best way to ship the engine is Freight LTL (which is a common freight carrier, LTL stands for less-than-truckload). A motorcycle engine is considered Class 85 for shipping. You can use the website freightcenter.com which will provide quotes from your zipcode to the receiviers zipcode. The site will provide which carriers ship from your zip to the reciever and will provide the various quotes. You will need the zipcodes to and from, the size of the box or crate, and the total weight. In my case Dustin Wright and I went to Lowe's, and bought 24x18x18 flat boxes (4 total) and packed the engine in the box, which was reinforced with other boxes (less than $6.00 total for the boxes) wrapped the engine in carpeting foam, and shrink wrapped the outside of the box. You can also go to the UPS website and use UPS Freight to get a quote and handle the shipping. UPS local truck is limited to 150 lbs, where the UPS Freight is not. Just remember to use Class 85 as the shipping code. The weight of engine is just under 150 lbs. Hope this helps. In most cases if your a business, the carrier will come to the business to pick up the box for a small added fee, or you can take the box direct to the carriers distribution center in your area. At this time since fuel costs are up, most shippers are adding a fuel surcharge to the price, and they will let you know what the surcharge is within the quote.

[Rick Ross]

Data from the car shows 2350 miles and 65.14 hours on the engine since the race car was built. The engine is a 2006 and had zero miles when installed originally.

Are you sure that is the correct total mileage? That only works out to an average speed of 36 mph. I would expect over 6000 miles with 65 hours of operation.

[Richard Dziak]

Are you sure that is the correct total mileage? That only works out to an average speed of 36 mph. I would expect over 6000 miles with 65 hours of operation.

Rick........Dustin verified the AIM dash data. I thought it was more mileage also, as I stated here before on diferent posts, but had been looking at the time. 2350 miles is what is recorded on the dash. There are a lot of factors that go into the time. Idle time, before entering the track, yellow flags, open track days that can result on slow times entering and exiting the track etc. Starting the car at home for warmups etc. The time is not 100% race time. Once the power to the dash is turned on it records time. If the car doesn't move, it can't record mileage. My AIM dash has an odometer, and total engine time consumed.

Main thing is that Dustin found a problem and it will be rebuilt. The compression test found the problem immediately.

[HastyHorn]

Richard,

Should George's tear down inspection confirm that the problem is rings than I would suggest that you take a long hard look at your intake system to verify that it is well sealed and that the filter is of the highest quality. Wearing rings out in less than 3,000 miles (even hard race miles) shouldn't happen unless some abrasive is sneaking past.

Was the compression down on four cylinders evenly?

Hasty Horn

[Richard Dziak]

Hasty........Yes, the compression levels were just about all the same in each of the 4 cylinders.....consistant between 80 and 90 PSI. We could not get the compression gauge over 90 PSI in any of the cylinders. I am using a K & N high quality air filter and clean it on a regular basis. However I race in the desert Southwest, and we have lots of sand in the air at times. It will be very interesting see what the outcome will be after George Dean gets the engine. I realize it is racing season, so I don't expect George to get to the engine immediately, but I will let you know after he opens it up and inspects it. I don't think that he will find anything major, and I am just being very preventive by having Dustin pull the engine and send it off for rebuild/inspection before a major blow up might occur.

[RobLav]

Something sounds funky... all 4 piston rings wearing like that at the same wear rate? Did you guys check the camshaft timing?

[Richard Dziak]

Something sounds funky... all 4 piston rings wearing like that at the same wear rate? Did you guys check the camshaft timing?

No.....

[starkejt]

I agree that something seems fishy about all 4 cylinders having the same low compression numbers. The first thing I would check is the compression gauge itself. A leakdown and a check of the cam timing wouldn't hurt either.

[glenn cooper]

...

I agree that something seems fishy about all 4 cylinders having the same low compression numbers. The first thing I would check is the compression gauge itself. A leakdown and a check of the cam timing wouldn't hurt either.

[ghickman]

A leak down test would have been more appropiate. My guess is that you have poorly seating valves in all cylinders. This will give the same low cranking pressure just like worn rings will hence the reason for a leak down....pin point the problem.

The valves in these engines need to be changed out after about 10 races in my opinion. They are very light weight and take a real beating at these high rpm's.

[Richard Dziak]

At the present time, the engine is pulled, boxed and ready to ship to the engine expert George Dean. Dustin will speak with George this week and provide a history of problems incurred over the last few test runs at the track. Perhaps George will be able to test the engine before any breakdown. May be easy to speculate here of what the problem may be, and time will tell. As someone asked before (Northwind) to keep everyone updated, I will do so. As always the input here on ApexSpeed is invaluable.

The engine will be in hands of GDRE. I am sure that interest has now be created, and I too am, of course, very interested in determining any issues that might be found with the engine. I don't have the mechanical savy to determine and diagnose the issues, and am glad I had Dustin, who had the mechanical ability to pull the engine, break the chassis apart. I couldn't have done it without his knowledge. So I am thankful for his efforts. This class is a steep learning curve, that we can all benefit from shared input, ideas, and problems that we incur.

There is no better source than ApexSpeed for the shared enthusiasm that we all share for F1000 and the ability and effort that many put into helping other racers in this growing class of formula race cars. More to follow.

[Richard Dziak]

UPDATE:

After 4 months I am happy to report that the Phoenix F1000 will be going to Phoenix Race Works this weekend were Dustin Wright will install the 2006 George Dean prepped engine with zero miles after a refreshening of the engine. The engine was sent to GDRE when there was an indication of some loss of power problems. George tore the engine apart, inspected and found the insides to be in excellent condition. While the engine was disassembled, it was decided to refreshen the engine by installing new main bearings, new rod bearings, gaskets, oil, and the infamous GDRE Dyno test. The refreshening tested excellent on the GDRE Dyno and the engine is somewhere between Seattle, WA and Phoenix, AZ, just miles from being re-installed into the car. Dustin Wright engineer with Phoenix Race Works will personally install the engine. In addition he will complete his annual inspection of the car, and I have instructed him to install new Willwood brake pads, a new Sprocket Specialties sprocket, new Sigma 530 chain and the car will be 100% race ready with what can be called a new engine. Thanks to George Dean for his expert mechanics and work. He is rated number #1 by his peers in building and rebuilding motorcycle engines. It will feel very good to get the car back. We determined the loss of power was due to an electrical failure from the chassis to the engine, not a lack of compression as previously reported.
_______________________________________________

[Richard Dziak]

I thought other racers might be interested in the results of George Dean's dyno test on my slighlty refreshened engine that was just completed this month. This is a 2006 Suzuki GXSR 1000 that was in excellent internal condition and had new main bearings and rod bearings, piston rings installed. It tested out at 177 HP @ 12,200 rpm's.

[formulasuper]

So, any idea what caused the previously noted low compression readings?

[Richard Dziak]

Scott:

Answer to your question above.....faulty compression tester gauge.

The internals of the engine when George disassembled it was in excellent condition. Since the engine was broken apart it was decided it was in the best interests to replace the main bearings, rod bearings, and piston rings. I was very pleased to hear the engine had no reported problems and internals were in excellent condition. The GDRE Dyno shows that even a 2006 GXSR 1000 can provide results as well as a newer 2007-2008-2009 engine. The excellent internals were attributed to consistent oil changes after every 4 hours of usage. Using high quality Amsoil synthetic motorcycle oils, and high quality Wix oil filters, never beating the engine to death and having a rev limiter set at 11,800 rpms.

The dyno test above shows that if racers can take care of the engines, not beat them to death with a high amount of over reving, constant oil changes, these little engines can last a long time. This engine is a testimonial that no matter what year you own, the performance and the HP can meet expections of the newer dated engines. Now this engine has zero miles since the refresh, and will perform in an outstanding manner as if it was just taken out of the crate as new.

[Northwind]

Richard,

What are you using as for a Rev Limiter? I'm considering doing the same.

[JohnPaul]

those are very good #'s for a stock 06, I expected much less, in the low to mid 160's. Is this typical??

[billwald]

Sweet! My spare is on it's way to GDR!

[VehDyn]

JohnPaul,

My 06 GSXR that was sent to Dean for a remapping, going through was dyno'd at 171 to the wheels on his motorcycle dyno. There were 2 others in that time frame that were very close. Mine was with my header. 177 is pretty good and I think what he sees with a 07 if I remember our discussion correctly.

Of course, different dynos can have different numbers.

[Beartrax]

Answer to your question above.....faulty compression tester gauge.

So, what was the compression? Did George test it before & after the rebuild?

Also, in an earlier post, Gary mentioned valves. Were they replaced as well?

Just curious... Good Luck & have fun!

[Richard Dziak]

First of all George Dean did a super job on the refresh. The numbers on the GDRE dyno are very very good. The image in the post above provides the real truth. Lots of power as noted.

No valves were needed.

As for the compression .....with the faulty gauge the compression was 85 (+-) in all 4 cyclinders at testing in my home garage. George knew right away that there was a problem with the readings of the gauge. As he told me, with a compression reading of 85 in all 4 cylinders the engine would not be able to turn over. The engine could be started before it was pulled out of the car.

He commented to me, that the engine was in excellent shape internally on the tear down and inspection. He credited the excellent shape to not over reving the engine, overall care, and constant oil changes about every 4 hours and the use of premium quality lubricants (Amsoil)., who sponsored the car and supplied me with numerous amounts of product and high performance Wix brand NASCAR filters.

Perhaps if George see's this thread he can chime in and provide his insights from his perspective of what he saw upon inspection. Very limited parts were necessary for the refresh.

Be advised that I am considered a regional racer, not a National competitive driver who needs to push the engine to the limit in order to win races. I have posted hundreds of times here on ApexSpeed and always made the point that I was in this for the fun, excitement and some competitive spirit. If I won a race great, if not; no big deal. The Phoenix F1000 has been cared for and maintained professionally by myself with annual inspections by Dustin Wright Chief Engineer over at Phoenix.

When I first ordered the car to be built, I spoke with George Dean as the engine was originally prepped for Phoenix by George. He told me with proper care, and not beating the engine to death, it would last a long time. I did what he suggested, and followed his advice, and the engine today has exceeded my expectations. Thanks GDRE for the excellent advice from day one.

I would not hesitate to send GDRE your engine for tear down and inspection. He's rated as tops in his profession, and thats is why he was the only choice to look at my problem, which we deducted as an electrical problem causing the engine to run rough at higher rpms.

As for the type or brand of rev limiter, Dustin over at Phoenix can tell you about that. I have an AIM Gold Dash, and the rev limiter is set at about 11,800.

GDRE also sonicly cleaned the fuel injectors. He has special equipment to do so.

[glenn cooper]

...[quote=Richard Dziak;309765]First of all George Dean did a super job on the refresh. The numbers on the GDRE dyno are very very good. The image in the post above provides the real truth. Lots of power as noted.

No valves were needed.

As for the compression .....with the faulty gauge the compression was 85 (+-) in all 4 cyclinders at testing in my home garage. George knew right away that there was a problem with the readings of the gauge. As he told me, with a compression reading of 85 in all 4 cylinders the engine would turn over like a mofo, but would never light off. The engine could be started before it was pulled out of the car.

[Herman Pahls]

How much do new rods and valves cost?
Replacing them seems like good insurance at rebuild since these engines are not as available as in the past.
I have felt the rev limiter several times.
Herman

[Richard Dziak]

Herman:

It would probably be best to contact GDRE for your question as to costs.

Yes, the rev limiter is a key component, and very important to make sure that it kicks in at a reasonable level of rpms.

It is my general feeling that the main reason racers are blowing up the engines, is that they are stressing the engines to the limit when pushing 13,000+ rpms for a constant period of time, like a qualifing sessions or races. Throw in the fact that shifting may not be smooth or missed and that creates additional stress on these engines. Otherwise care in rev limits and shifting patterns can certainly extend the life of the GXSR 1000 engines.