An old guy new to First

[gbmetcalf]

I have been reading with some interest the discussions here and have to say I am learning that what I thought about doing with my Formula First might be more looks than function but what I figure It's my car, my design, and I really don't care if the established experts like it. I want to make it and race it.

My take on this class is it is for folks that are comfortable with the VW format but are not really content with the FV as we know it. I chose FST because I believe you should stay with what you are comfortable with.

A little personal history I am a 52 year old fabrications designer that has played with volkswagens my whole life. Since I was a wee lad I was rebuilding VW's and I have a deep seated love for the flat four. I was a SCCA member for years and was at one time the NEDIV chief of tech. I autocrossed a beetle, an opel GT, a pinto and then a Auto D MK4. Took a couple drivers schools and then my racing took a different direction I went dirt racing in a spec class called Pro Truck, I also raced a dirt modified. most recently I raced and autocrossed a legends car which I qualified for the INEX national race in Vegas.
I tell you this because I have come full circle, to my roots, the 1600cc VW beetle motor and the SCCA.

My Formula First will be the first race car that is all my design and handywork the only thing that I have not done on this car is bend the main frame rails as I hadn't finished building my tubing bender at the time I wanted them done so I asked the dirt modified builder Bicknell racing to bend them for me. My design is loosly based on the 80's Van dieman FC but it has evolved over the years. It is built for the larger racer as I have tried to wedge my butt into a Protoform and ummmm well there would be no speedy exit from those cars.

Thank you all for developing this class I do not have the deep pockets that is required for national FV racing. I am just a guy that likes to race and has a design stuck in his head screaming to get out and be built.

G.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I am just a guy that likes to race and has a design stuck in his head screaming to get out and be built.

I understand completely. People like you are what the sport needs.

Good luck

[lawyerbob]

Welcome to the class from another "old guy" (I'll be 52 also by the end of the month).

Very interested to see pictures of your car / design!

Bob

[gbmetcalf]

This is the latest rendition of the design. The side pods are optional but figured what the heck.

I'm not really sure how to add photos here but here goes.still debating on trailing arms or leading arms. It depends on weather I go with the side pods or not.

[butch deer]

Glad to have you on board. I,ve had FV,s snce 1963. I have been inviled in FST from the begining and greatly enjoy my car. It's great fun to drive and easy on maitainance. While I never gave up driving I had moved to Vintage FV. FST brought me back to SCCA racing. I even put up with yougsters like lawyerbob.
Butch

[lawyerbob]

I even put up with yougsters like lawyerbob.
Butch

LOL thanks Butch - haven't been called that in while!

G - do the side pods serve a function or are they just design? I ask becasue I've toyed with mody mods on my Adams and one idea I keep coming back to is side pods, mostly for appearance, but have also tried to figure out if I could incorporate ducting for oil or cylinder head cooling that way.

will your car be ready for this coming season?

Bob

[gbmetcalf]

The side pods house duct work and oil coolers. The issue I came across is that in the FV
rules it states the oil coolers must reside aft of the fire wall. As in the sketch they also
House a set of fuel cells which may or may not be replaced with a single fuel cell similar
to the ones in a legends car or a wedge cell. Also I was trying to avoid the use of the
Snorkel type of cylinder cooling.

[rgu]

Brian

There are actually two Formula Firsts being constructed here in Rochester----Only 95 miles from you. If you might be interested in taking a look I'm sure it can be arranged just send me a PM.

Also be sure to join the Formula First Drivers Association. Memberships go from May 1 to April 30.

R

[gbmetcalf]

Here are a couple pics of my main roll hoop being bent on my bender I built. I can bend anything up to 2.50" dia. with the right dies. The bender was very inexpensive to build and a great welding project.

RGU I'd love to come up and see the two firsts being built. I work shifts on a 7 day sech. so I only get every third weekend off.

G.

[gbmetcalf]

Glad to have you on board. I,ve had FV,s snce 1963. I have been inviled in FST from the begining and greatly enjoy my car. It's great fun to drive and easy on maitainance. While I never gave up driving I had moved to Vintage FV. FST brought me back to SCCA racing. I even put up with yougsters like lawyerbob.
Butch

Butch back in the 70's a friend of mine Bob (Buggsy) Bennett raced FV in the north east div. and he designed a FV but never got to build it. I worked with him in the 90's and he handed the torch over to me and gave me his drawings. On the vintage side of things did a car have to race at that time to be consider "vintage" or could it have been designed back then? I built Bob's chassis minus the roll hoops and plan on bending up a couple of hoops for it in the near future. I want Bob to see his plans in steel some day.

G.

[Hardingfv32]

There is no restriction on the oil cooler location in FV. Is there one for FST?
The oil filter must be behind the fire wall in FV.

Brian

[sracing]

FST Rules. Are in the GCR. Yes the oil cooler still has to be in the coach work and behind the firewall.

[gbmetcalf]

That is what I read, so I put the oil coolers in the side pods aft of the firewall.
Seeing there is no firewall in the side pods if I place them aft of a line where
the firewall would be I feel I am in compliance with that rule.

G.

[Hardingfv32]

There is nothing that says the fire wall is a flat plane at the rear hoop location. The rest is up to your imagination.

Brian

[budawe]

Don't forget that the rules say that the firewall must prevent fire and debris from entering the cockpit. If your oil cooler is not isolated by the firewall, regardless if the cooler is behind the firewall, you may have a challenge from tech later.

[LanceKTM950]

Your shop (outside) looks like mine!
Always good to see a new approach, can't wait to see it run.
I'm thinking of building a monocoque chassis to run in XFST, I prefer to bend, drill and rivit to measure, cut and weld.
Lance

[Hardingfv32]

If budawe is teching your car who knows what is going to be challenged.

1) "prevent fire and debris from entering the cockpit" is a subjective statement. What temp fire are we talking about? Melt aluminum? What size debris at what force level?

2) Very few classes restrict the location of the oil cooler. The average tech inspector will not notice the location of your oil cooler. This rule is not the norm, particularly in regards to a safety issue.

Brian

[butch deer]

Butch back in the 70's a friend of mine Bob (Buggsy) Bennett raced FV in the north east div. and he designed a FV but never got to build it. I worked with him in the 90's and he handed the torch over to me and gave me his drawings. On the vintage side of things did a car have to race at that time to be consider "vintage" or could it have been designed back then? I built Bob's chassis minus the roll hoops and plan on bending up a couple of hoops for it in the near future. I want Bob to see his plans in steel some day.

G.

The Vintage rules vary from club to club. "Monoposto " rules are the norm east of the mississippi. They allow cars designed in 1969 or earlier that do not have zero roll rear suspension. Since SCCA did not require log books untill 1973 0r so I believe the documentation is rather loose particularly when it comes to one off's. Good chance you could race this car. Just call it a 1969.
Butch
.

[budawe]

See section 9.3.23 Firewall: "Firewall and floor shall prevent the passage of flame and debris into the driver's compartment." If the FIREWALL can't prevent the passage of fire why have it? There have been cases where competitors have placed engine components like coolers and filters in the cockpit which causes more consternation since the driver becomes exposed to the possibility of being burnt by hot oil. Section 9.3.1 regarding accumulators, reinforces the use of steel braided oil lines in the cockpit as well. In addition, direct reading oil pressure gauges must have non-plastic, hard metal lines carrying oil through the cockpit. Nothing personal or vindictive, just makes sense to me. Regarding my teching your car, Brian knows I'm reasonable and willing to discuss everything without protests and log book notations. He likes to jerk my chain.

[gbmetcalf]

Ok no disrespect ment here but I didn't start this thread to debate about where and why the SCCA says where my oil cooler needs to be. I was a tech inspector for 15 years, I can read and quite honestly will do what I want and not lose a wink of sleep worrying about if a local tech inspector will have an "issue" with it. Quoting chapter and verse of the GCR only reminds me of why I went circle track racing in the first place. So please keep it civil and let's get this class going strong.

G.

[budawe]

Sorry if you've been offended, but you made a statement, "Seeing there is no firewall in the side pods if I place them aft of a line where the firewall would be I feel I am in compliance with that rule. " and I thought you might have a problem later on. The specific rule regarding the firewall is in the general prep rules and not in the vee section so I thought you might not be aware of it. Period.

If you decide not to comply, that's your call. I try to help folks avoid issues on Sat. morning when everyone's a bit stressed. My citation of chapter and verse is offered for everyone that reads the forum for the same reason. Nothing's worse than busting your butt to build something only to find out you have to take it off.

[iamuwere]

When frontal area is the most important aero factor on a low-HP car, why add sidepods? I would be spending time trying to make a very, very narrow very, very, short car.

[gbmetcalf]

Sorry if you've been offended, but you made a statement, "Seeing there is no firewall in the side pods if I place them aft of a line where the firewall would be I feel I am in compliance with that rule. " and I thought you might have a problem later on. The specific rule regarding the firewall is in the general prep rules and not in the vee section so I thought you might not be aware of it. Period.

If you decide not to comply, that's your call. I try to help folks avoid issues on Sat. morning when everyone's a bit stressed. My citation of chapter and verse is offered for everyone that reads the forum for the same reason. Nothing's worse than busting your butt to build something only to find out you have to take it off.

No offence taken. I know why you help was the same way when I was NEDIV chief. I mull over ever inch of the GCR and that is why I don't worry about compliance. When I had a question about a compliance issue when I teched a car I would pull the driver aside and ask him the reason he did the thing I had a question on and if it was a valid reason and it didn't comprise the safety of himself or other concerned participants I would note it and let him go have a great weekend.

G.

[gbmetcalf]

When frontal area is the most important aero factor on a low-HP car, why add sidepods? I would be spending time trying to make a very, very narrow very, very, short car.

My design is what it is. I honestly have no dreams of grandeur. I will be a "field filler" a backmarker as you will. I am average height with a large width at the sholders. My design is skinny in front and fat in the middle kinda like the designer......

G.

[gbmetcalf]

This term was a mystery to me untill now. Here is a few links that helped me understand.

G.

http://www.compgoparts.com/Technical...anSteering.asp

http://www.rctek.com/technical/handl...principle.html

Now I know why my shifter cart always looked like the wheels were turning differently when was autocrossing it.

[gbmetcalf]

When frontal area is the most important aero factor on a low-HP car, why add sidepods? I would be spending time trying to make a very, very narrow very, very, short car.

The first car will have trailing arms and be void of side pods. I wanted to make it simple and going this way makes more sence for now. I also wanted to take more time to design the core chassis verses messing with the side pods. I bought a affordable 3D cad program that has helped me visualize the chassis better. Going off of 2D autocad drawings is one thing, but once I put them in 3D it helped me so much more! I got Viacad 2D/3D it has a lot of features that the high end cad softwares have at a fraction of the cost. I'm still learning the software but this will give you an idea.

G.

[problemchild]

G.

I think you should study the front hoop placement on some other cars. It looks to me that it should be about a foot forward of where you have it. Even if you have very short arms and no belly, I don't see room to steer, nevermind shift gears.

[gbmetcalf]

Greg the front hoop is 26" away from the back hoop
I can always move it foward that is exactly why I post the drawings. To have you more experienced guys give me feedback. Thank you! What would you suggest the distance be 36"? That would be 10" longer

G.

Thanks again for the feedback!

[Bill Bonow]

G.

On the Evolution, that distance is 37".

[Jim Nash]

FWIW, The MRC dimension is 33". That is an inside dimension. It would be worth your time to build a mock-up if you really want to make sure you're going to fit. I would not go any shorter.

Jim

[gbmetcalf]

Great idea Jim! Thats why I'm here ideas like these!
Does anyone know what the distance between the hoops is for an Adams?
I'm off to buy PVC and plywood in the morning...

G.