New to FV

[twister]

Hello. I apologize if this is not in the right section.
Quick intro. My name is Dave and I live in Northern California. My brother and I have been involved with various forms of racing over the years and we were very interested in starting something new. The Formula Vee/FST class seems a perfect fit for us. Over the last couple weeks, we've been gathering research for what's needed to get involved. Costs for the car, upkeep, and ever changing improvements seem reasonable.

Racing is expensive no matter what type of vehicle you're driving and I fully accept that. I was a little surprised however at the costs for entry at a one day event. Is $250 a day or $500 for a weekend entry normal? Fuel, tires, repairs, lodging, and food are all part of the game and I'm not including those costs. I was frankly a little shocked to see how much it cost just to show up. Being new to this side of racing, I may be way off base. I mean no disrespect in the inquiry and hope not to offend. Thanks in advance for any input.
Dave

[Matt King]

Depending on the track and the region, $350-500 for a race weekend unfortunately is not that uncommon these days.

[Doug FST 5]

@twister - what kinds of racing have you done in the past? What kind of entry fees did you see there? In SCCA club racing we've seen significant increases in the entry fees. I think that's driven primarily by two factors. The cost to rent a track has been going up and up. Our car counts at the events have been weak over the past few years with the difficult economy. The wild majority of our race meetings are not spectator events so the entry fees have had to increase.

Doug FST 5

[twister]

Doug,
I can see where no spectators would have a large impact on fees. We've been involved with Dwarf cars, bracket (drag) racing, and shifter carts. All different types of racing with entry fees under $100 of course.
Even so, it's enough of a difference to keep me out of it. It's a shame considering Thunderhill and Infineon are both fairly close. Deflating actually. I had really started to wrap my mind around gearing up my shop for a fun build.
It seems like those who have been in the sport a while have become accustomed to the fees and just accepted them (begrudgingly) as they rose. Wow, I feel like I just complained about OPEC. Sorry.
Oh well. A friend and I have been restoring an old Beechcraft Bonanza and I'm sure the money I would have thrown at a car will not go unspent. Thanks for the insight. Take care guys.

[Steve Bamford]

Probably has to do with the track costs vs the bracket racing track costs along with number of enteries. Two totally different events driving for 6-14 seconds vs driving for 20 minutes - an hour. If you equate it back to actually track/driving time bracket racing is really much, much more exspensive.

[budawe]

Unfortunately, you have looked at the most expensive region in the country. races down south with Cal Club are a bit cheaper. This is not all the regions fault. Infineion is very expensive, TH not so much. Laguna is unique due to worker's participation in Pro events but still quite expensive.

Maybe you should drop the region a note. I've been fighting this issue for a long time.

[veefan]

I always thought that if the SCCA actually promoted the races even a little, fans would show up. Imagine that, race fans actually covering some of the cost of our current entry fees, possibly making events profitable and in the remotest of possibilities...a little prize money or nice trophies???

Where are all the race fans???

[sabre1fv]

Dave,

Have you been to a San Francisco Regional race? I invite you to stop by and see for yourself what one of our weekends is like. Typically the region is doing two and three day events to maximize your on-track time while at that specific track ( Thunderhill, Laguna Seca or Sears Point errr... Infineon). The region schedule is here: http://www.sfrscca.org/images/2011/2...hedule1_31.pdf

The Left Coast Formula Car Board (http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?) tends to be a bit more FV oriented but includes FST, Formula Ford, Formula C, and other formula cars and is somewhat centered around the San Francisco region. Perhaps you are the Davew who just joined?

If you join us for one of the weekend races you can see that there is a fairly stable FV community that is close knit, and a small, but slowly growing FST community that fits right in with the FVs. Questions are ALWAYS welcome, except just before a track session. Stop by and introduce yourself.

-Jim

[Hardingfv32]

These are the normal entry costs for SCCA in CA. Really are not that much lower around the rest of the country. There are plenty of other organizations biding on track dates. The costs are high in N California because the tracks are some of the best in the country and close to a major population area. These costs have been climbing and are not ever coming down.

Spectators for SCCA racing is a complete loss. Don't forget there are expenses associated with spectators. There are no solutions out their to make this form of racing cheaper. The choice is yours.

Brian

[smsazzy]

These are the normal entry costs for SCCA in CA. Really are not that much lower around the rest of the country. There are plenty of other organizations biding on track dates. The costs are high in N California because the tracks are some of the best in the country and close to a major population area. These costs have been climbing and are not ever coming down.

Spectators for SCCA racing is a complete loss. Don't forget there are expenses associated with spectators. There are no solutions out their to make this form of racing cheaper. The choice is yours.

Brian

Ever the optimist.... :-)

[budawe]

Having raced many times around the country, I must disagree with Brian. Just last year the 3 day double national at Buttonwillow (Cal Club) was $100 less than the 2 day double at Thunderhill. Both are club owned tracks and SF didn't answer my question as to why it was more expensive at TH. The June Sprints is cheaper than most nationals on the left coast.

[Hardingfv32]

I do not consider a 20% deferential between entry fee at SCCA events that much difference for the purpose of the discussion. The original comment for this thread is talking about 200-300% difference with other forms of racing and SCCA.

Of coarse the June Sprints is much cheaper because of all the spectators it draws.

Optimist, no realist. People need to know that facts before they get too involved. Our kind of racing is not inexpensive. Worth the money is for you decide.

Brian

[budawe]

Guess you're right Brian, a 1/3 reduction in entry fees ($450 vs $350) is meaningless.

[twister]

So, after reading your posts, I do have to pose this question. Are lower fees which would be more inviting to larger numbers of participants better than higher fees to a smaller group of Loyals who are absorbing the difference? Also, if more participated, does anyone here honestly think the fees would be dropped because the bills are being paid?
I've read numerous posts by those who have obviously been in the sport for years and years comment how it has been around for half a century and isn't going anywhere. This mostly comes up during the argument between Vee vs FST however, the mindset is that because it's been around so long, it isn't going anywhere.
I may not be involved with your style of racing. I admittedly wouldn't know the first thing about SCCA style racing. I have however loved racing of all types my entire life. It makes me sad to think that a class steeped in as much history as yours could fall to the wayside due to being close minded in respect to the future. What would it take to make a difference?
Tracks all over the country are struggling. One of my neighbors just lost his house after throwing in the towel following the struggling efforts made by the track where he was working. His take on the business side of Champ series cars is pretty depressing. He was working with one of the teams back east and had to move back. No butts in the seats.
Again, what would it take to make a difference?
After seeing all of the fees involved with SCCA, we chose to instead go back to bracket racing. Just as involved to achieve success with around the same amount of money to build the car. The only difference was that when we take it out to race it on Wednesday or Friday nights, there are a ton of kids there all throwing in their 35 bucks to see how fast their "Coffee Can Exhausted" car will make it down the track. Yes, Bam Bam is correct in that you drive less during your session. Ten drives a night, twice a week, four weeks out of the month. For the same entry fees as one day a month with the Vees. However, add up the fact that it's available every Wednesday and Friday night, and testing or "track rental" allows you to run unlimited...for an 1/8th of the cost. And, how's the Vee racing prize money at the end of a successful day? With lower fees, a successful day at the drags pays for itself.
I'm not trying to compare the types of racing by any means. Bam Bam's comment seemed a little condescending feeding the stereo type as to why people are turning away from SCCA from the start. I'm just trying to show that the folks running these weekly events have made it easy to allow mass amounts of young adults to race. They tapped into what's popular in the culture NOW.
And, believe me, these kids racing hopped up Hondas, Toyotas and other imports fashion themselves drivers..not just quarter milers. Make it more fashionable and affordable to them and you have a new resource. None of them are going to pay $250 a day.
Racing in the United States has changed. For all types. You either adapt to what's working, or complain about what's not...and watch your sport disappear.
It's just my 2 cents guys from the other side of the fence. I whole heartedly wish your sport success. Hopefully the pure enthusiasts of your sport bring it through this tough economy. Take care.

[Steve Bamford]

Please don't take my statement as condesending as it wasn't meant that way, just trying to explain one reason the costs maybe much different.

I am not totally in the know on bracket racing but I believe it is pretty much run whatever you show up in & only need a helmet? Is that correct? If this is the case it opens bracket racing up to much bigger audience.

Two different types of racing, both enjoyable, but they both have different costs attached.

[Doug FST 5]

...both are tasty but they are very different. Same is true with drag racing and road racing. I would agree with you that SCCA is on its way out if the fees involved were way out of line with other ways to access road racing in a full sized race car. I re-checked the competitive landscape this morning. NASA is charging as much or more for 2 days at Mid-Ohio as the SCCA. The BMW club is charging the same amount for 2 days of driving school (no real racing) in a street car. The top line tracks such as Mid-Oh are booked every weekend every season. The downturn has certainly hurt the smaller tracks. The club's tinkering with the divisional points chases have hurt business as well. Even with the downturn there is strong demand for track time overall but SCCA as a sanctioning body and promoter of club racing has far more competition than ever before. Its time to rethink how to stay on top.

I've been bracket racing before and had a good time. It was fun for sure but it won't replace pulling over 1.5g's in a corner at over 100mph for me. Maybe I have a screw loose but I'll drive past the 3 drag strips in my area to get to the road courses once a month or so throughout the season.

Good luck in whatever kind of racing you choose.

Doug FST 5

[twister]

Very different. Bracket racing is very different. I agree. If I knew more about oval track racing which is prevalent in this area, I would have used it. Weekly events, low entry fees. It was something my brother did with the Dwarf cars. Inexpensive to build, cheep fees, high frequency of events.
Go Kart racing. Inexpensive (comparatively) to build, low fees, promoted highly to new members. Very high g forces done correctly. Very exhilarating..

Again, this isn't meant to give all the reasons why not to go Vee racing. It's showing the other outlets being used by people who are looking for ways to maintain their thrill of racing at an affordable level. You guys have that in the Vees.

All of you are the voices of this sport. Rarely would you have the opportunity to hear from someone giving reason why they aren't joining. I'll tell how far I got. My son had a frame built on CAD. I had a bay in the shop cleared out. I even relocated the Tig welder knowing I would be spending a lot of time behind the mask. When I saw how much it cost to spend two days racing, I put a big halt on everything. In addition, I've spent the last fifteen years driving black and white race cars up and down the highways of California..Well over my head at times trying to catch those Coffee Can cars. Road racing was exactly what I wanted to do.
The fees are too much. All of you have ideas in your mind as to how the fees are justified given the costs that go into the tracks. Outsiders have no idea. They're coming from other types of racing seeing these fees and scratching their heads. Unless the SCCA or the other organizations make it more inviting for someone like me who is willing to jump in, the numbers are going to dwindle due to attrition. Introductory first year programs. Low first year introductory fees. Build programs for first year drivers..for every class. Get us in the door. Build a love for the sport. The only thing we're seeing now is the dissension in the ranks and high entry fees. You guys have the power to influence the organization whose survival depends on all of you showing up.
My thoughts mean nothing to the organization. Yours will. Good luck.

[sabre1fv]

Dave,

Sorry that this didn't pan out for you. I would still invite you and your son to join us on a race weekend to get a better idea of what a race weekend is like. I think once you see an event, you might reconsider... or not.

Additionally though, most newcomers start with a used car. Likely cheaper and certainly quicker than building your own. You can always scale up if you get serious about it. The time to build a frame and then bodywork can be considerable, and chances are the frame will be considerably overweight which will put you at a disadvantage to other existing cars.

-Jim

PS: Thank you for your time driving those black and white vehicles, I'm sure you helped a lot of people over the years.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Aren't the entries still a small part of the total budget to go racing? Yes, entries are expensive....but you've decided to go bracket racing instead of road racing because of entry fees? Understood, but it seems like a harsh decision.

Remember with SCCA road racing, you become part of a family in a class that is recognized throughout the country...someone on the east coast can relate to your first place finish in a regional race on the west coast. Bracket racing at the local drag stip doesn't have that appeal.....is someone on the east coast even going to pay attention to what's happening on the west coast at a local drag strip? I'll bet almost every racer in SCCA pays attention to friends and other members results throughout the season all around the country. I know I do.

How boring will it get to keep showing up at the same local track on those Wednesday and friday nights after a season? Sure, you can go 2 nights a week...but will you really? Then what do you do? Race a formula vee and the sky is the limit - regionals, nationals, try for a national championship???? Maybe even move up to a different class?

To me the appeal of road racing is the ability to race at tracks all over the country...Mid-Ohio, Road America, Watkins, Road Atlanta, ect...and when I'm not racing at a track, I know people who are - you become part of a family. To me, thats what makes the extra entry fees worth it versus Saturday night roundy-rounds or drag stip.

There is also the reward of doing well at a race when the race only happens a few times a year. If I could race 2 times a week, what's the motivation and reward? Didn't do well...oh well...I can try again in 2 days. Having only 7-8 races a year adds to the pressure, the intensity, and the reward.

[budawe]

Great reply Michael, couldn't have said it better myself. Additionally, I don't know how many of the local drag strips provide the insurance and safety management that SCCA does.

[Hardingfv32]

twister...

This is a non-profit system. If we are to offer lower fees for new comers, then the current members are going to have to pickup the tab. This is a very poor investment as very few new racers stay with the the club for more than 2-3 years. If you find the entries high, then you will be blown away by the really costs of SCCA club racing.

Drags and circle track have a completely different appeal to racers than SCCA road racing. Clearly they have a much greater following than SCCA. Yes, weekly events at the same tracks seems boring, but it could be something to look forward to after a dull week at work. There is no reason to get to upset if you lose or break as you will be back in a week. Just different way to have fun.

Brian

[Matt King]

If you look at most household budgets, it's easy to understand the financial appeal of local, run what you brung racing. My wife cringes every time I tell her I'm registering for an event or buying a set of tires, but entry fees at the dragstrip or local circle track are less than my lunch money for the week! So it's much easier to participate when time and finances allow. Road racing generally requires a much greater commitment in time and money.

Budawe, what are your local tracks? If they are NHRA affiliated, they will have safety and insurance standards comparable to road racing. And don't forget, the NHRA literally invented many of the motorsports safety concepts and standards we take for granted today!

In case you want to compare to SCCA, here are the NHRA insurance coverages:

http://www.nhra.com/insuranceinfo.aspx

And SCCA:

http://cms.scca.com/documents/insura...%20Summary.pdf

[Amon]

Matt,

You're correct about the low entry fee's at most strips. My son and his friends
go to the local drag strip on Friday nights just for fun, and it costs them $15.00
for a night of running down the strip. A day at M-O or Nelson Ledges (lapping days)
will cost far more and cost is very important for the youth since ( as many know),
they don't have much money etc....


Mark

[twister]

Guys I do agree with both sides. The allure of road racing is huge. I absolutely love the felling of entering a long sweeping turn, ignoring the impulse to hit the brakes and dropping the hammer right to the point where the suspension is leaned all the way to one side and riding that rail. Other than one well designed roller coaster there's nothing quite like it. For those who are able to let go of their fears, focus on the line, and carry that car up to its limit, I have utmost respect. I have that respect for all drivers however. Whether it's hitting that perfect apex, sliding sideways through a dirt covered track, or keeping a homemade 600 hp block straight all the way up to 120 mph all under 10 seconds.

Obviously I'm drawn to your sport. Any true motorsports enthusiast would be. I am a true fan of anyone who takes a simple chassis, breaks it down to it's truest form, and turns it in to high speed, low drag, turn straightening rocket.

Racing around a track or straight through one section both give their own types of thrills. Family environments and driver camaraderies are present at any track.

My choice comes down to simple economics and time spent with my investment. My comparison of drag racing vs. Vee racing is for that reason. It also comes from the CINCHOUSE factor. Having to explain to the Command In Chief of the House that I need $1000 a month to go racing would prove difficult. It's safe to say that all of us building race cars in this price range need to evaluate our budgets and see if racing that car on a regular basis is feasible. Once you build the car, how much will it cost and how often will you get to drive it?

I hope the SCCA is willing to let down some guards. I hope they look for new ways to bring in more types of drivers. Looking down your nose at some kid who dumps $20,000 into their Honda means cutting off a new class of entry level drivers. Get them in the door. Educate them. Make it affordable. Bring their money to the tracks and share their love of fast cars. Give them a place to drive. They do know how to hit those turns. I know. I've watched them pull away from my reach more times than I'd like to admit. Having a place to do it safely, legally, and under the experienced eyes of seasoned drivers would benefit both sides.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Reading this thread has inspired me to consider how much I spend on this crazy hobby that I love so much.

Here in the SF region there are seven race weekends scheduled for 2011. Six of the weekends are double race events and one is a single. I have added up my estimated cost for racing every event in my FV. In our region we run the AR spec tire so 2 sets per season is possible. I have a motor home that I use so my fuel cost are high but my food/lodging cost are low. I am sure that there are other minor cost that I am not considering but this should represent the major ones. I have not included the cost of the race car or trailer because I feel that I will get that money back when I sell them.

• Tires $600.00 x 2 sets = $1200.00
• Fuel cost to/from each race= 2,058 miles/6mpg=343 gallons x $3.50=$1200.00
• Entry Fee's for all 13 races = $3,130.00
• Race car maintenance = $2,000
• Food = $150.00/weekend x 7 = $1,050.00

Total Cost $8,580 Divided by 13 races = $660.00/Race or $1225/race weekend.

Overall I don't think this is to bad. I have raced go karts and could easily spend this much on a season. I have friends that spend way more then this racing go karts. I have raced radio controlled cars and know people that have spent this much in a year. Hobby's can be expensive.

For me the seven weekends per year racing schedule works out good. It lowers the per race cost because of the double race weekends and ends up averaging out to about one race per month which gives me time to work on the car in between the races or maybe travel to an out of region race.

My $.02

[Matt King]

Your numbers look very reasonable and pretty close to what mine have been for running a Vee. But notice that entry fees are over 36 percent of your total season costs. We all know some of the reasons why that is the case, but the bigger question is does that have to be the case? Is there a way to effect a significant reduction in that line item? I don't know, but it is clearly a significant issue for many current and potential racers.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I Don't know the actual cost of hosting a double regional at the three tracks that we race at, however, I do know the entry fee's

• Double regional @ Laguna Seca $495.00
• Double regional @ Sears Point (Infineon) $490.00
• Double Regional @ Thunderhill (Owned by SF region) $385.00

We get a total of five on track sessions during a double race weekend.


For a little perspective when I started racing in 1981 entry fees in the SF region were $45.00. That was for a single regional, we didn't have double regionals back then to my knowledge.

[budawe]

In SF region entries have risen over 600% since the 70's. The CPI or cost index has risen 340% during the same time. Since vees and 1st's are so cost effective to run it makes the entries more significant. If I run a $10,000 a weekend GT-1, then the entry fee is relatively nothing.

Matt, I agree that NHRA has a very good insurance and safety program but doesn't the insurance only apply to sanctioned events? Don't think these "open nights" are covered. Neither are many test days at road courses. I'm very impressed with NHRA fuel procedures as well. The nightly programs

[butch deer]

I started road racing in 1959. you could buy a car for $1000.00 or less in race trim,entry fee's were $15.00,gas was $0.20 cents a gallon. One of the first people I met at the track told me that the money it takes to reace is all you have. It's still true today. There are bracket racers that spend well upwards of $100,000.00 a year. there are circle track guys with$25,000,000.00 plus budgets. The same with roadracers.
You can run track days and autocrosses for the same budget as the Wed. & Sat night local drag guys as long as your satisfied with 13 plus second quarter miles and running uncompetitively against the clock or your own personal best. Once the second car you want to beat gets in the equation the budget suddenly increases(usually exponentially).
Want to race start by defining a reasonble budget for yourself and then go around and talk to honest racers in different classes and type of motorsport. Find one that fits your budget and get started. If you are financially stressed that your fun factor will go away. You can't enjoy motorsports driving with$$ in your eyes.

Butch

[Matt King]

Butch, you make a great point about the difference between "racing" and "driving." Both are fun, but there is HUGE difference in the commitment it takes to be a successful racer vs. just having fun driving the car. Of course, many of the people who are entered in races are really just driving, but that's another discussion!

[ajpastore]

The way I see it SCCA road racing costs less than the seemingly cheapest form of racing-- Saturday night street racing at the drag strip.
Lets use Scotts numbers for road racing his Vee, $1225.00 per weekend and break it down and compare......

Say a double race weekend has four sessions at 25 minutes per session. That's 100 minutes of track time/event that cost $1225.00 to attend.
$1225.00/100=$12.25 per minute of fun

Saturday night drags....
$25.00 entry fee and 10 runs at 12 seconds/run (pretty fast?) gives you 2 minutes of track time.

$25.00/2= $12.50 per min of fun.

A savings over drag racing of $0.25/minute or 2%

That doesn't even include the travel, food and maintenance for the drag racer which was factored into the Vee racing cost...


-Andy P

[butch deer]

The value you get out of racing is all about the comptition not nthe track time. If it were only track time we would all be running 24 hr races. If track time trumped over competionion no one would ever go to the runn offs.
Butch

[twister]

ajpastore,
If I were a kid driving a Honda on drag strips every Wed and Fri night and I saw some road racing snob break down the amount of time down to the cost per minute spent on the track, I'd immediately shut down the idea of road racing.

Everyone of you needs to take a look at ajpastore's comment. If money wasn't the issue, his attitude is. I've tried as hard as I could to be amicable. I agreed with both sides and supported the overall appreciation for your sport. This idiot points out why there is a line drawn between sports. Don't wonder why there's an OBVIOUS drop in your classes. Count how many people aren't showing up anymore. Why aren't you racing as many cars as you did five years ago? Open your minds gentleman. Ajpastore's stance is old and moldy. It's why people don't come to your side of racing. I considered it and went another direction. Opinions like his were a factor.

For those of your who are true enthusiasts of all motorsports I encourage you to run idiots like ajpastore out. Your sport depends on it. Our economy is way to skinny to run on close minded opinions like his. Grow your sport. Be inventive. I could not possibly wish you more success.
That's it. I'm done. Good luck gentleman. Fight for your sport and don't give up.

[BDub76]

Hello All,

I've been lurking for a while with the same anticipation as Twister. I also come from a background of motor-sports predominately Drag racing. I too was surprised at the entry fees. I have been bracket racing for 20 years minus the last few. My Grand father ran Top fuel for thirty years into the late 70's until it was impossible to do without sponsors.

With that said... I fully understand that the words automotive racing and affordable don't typically run hand in hand. Not to get too personal, but @ $90k a year, a handful of $1250 weekends aren't really in the cards. Being an Electrician for the past 15 years, I've typically been able to afford my racing habits without too much sacrifice. I will admit, i had over $20k in my 65 nova (11.03 ET) and probably $30k or more in the total operation but it was done over time. It was quite a bit easier on the pocket book to get 15 or so passes over a weekend for a few hundred bucks. And yes there were event that were more expensive to enter with less passes. I find it a little ridiculous to break it down to minutes per dollar. If I wanted too, I would drive my street legal 11 second car to the track so at 25 miles from the house to the track @ 44 seconds per mile.....never-mind.

I too entered this discussion with an anticipation of building or buying a FV car but I see a few flags and respectfully pass. By no means am I trying to start a Drag race vs Road race argument but to compare the two is like comparing a skydiver and a Crackhead...Were all playing deadly games and smiling like hell about it. Just another outsider lookin in. Everyone stay safe...Bob

[Daryl DeArman]

My brother-in-law races Top Alcohol drag boats. Our weekend budgets, when I was racing karts, were remarkably close.

He got about 6 passes, depending on how far he went into the brackets. Sub 8 second passes meant he wasn't even getting one minute in the capsule per weekend. However, we were both having tons of fun and that's all that mattered.

[BDub76]

Officer Twister, I was just kidding about he 44 sec mile. I live nowhere near Sac Raceway. nor do I ever do 130 on my way there on Wednesday nights. HA HA

[twister]

Bdub76,
If I had you on a stop. I wouldn't give you a ticket. I'd take your ManCard. Out

[Bruce Livermore]

Interesting thread.

Dave,

I'm pretty sure AJ was pulling your chain. It's a common refrain I've heard since I started racing (as a student/mechanic, 35 years ago): "you don't want to know what it costs per lap or per minute" because if you figure it out, you will probably quit. I've never thought of it as analogous to the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" line. I hope that's not how you took it.

Most of us do this for the pure joy of the experience, especially the close competition in FV. I would not argue with your feeling that some road racers are snobs, but there are not very many of them in FV. How can you be snobbish driving a "no-tech" car with 40+ year old parts that get grease on your hands every time you turn around. There are plenty of egos in FV, but that's true in every walk of life.

From the regional level to the top national level in FV there is a huge range of incomes and this does somewhat reflect on the competitiveness of the racers. But this effect is smaller in FV than in most SCCA classes. I have a special respect for the guys who could afford to race in a more expensive class, but chose to race in Vee simply for the competition, knowing they can't buy wins like they could in so many other classes. At the same time I envy them each time I see another set of stickers go on their car...

The cost/fun ratio we each choose to tolerate is a personal choice we all deal with at some level. Some of us get closer to the real edge of affordability while others are just delaying their retirement a few years without thinking too hard about it...

I happen to agree with you that the cost structure is, overall, too high in SCCA and that it does exclude or at least scare off many people who would otherwise make valuable members. By their nature, classes like FV are the most sensitive to this because we naturally attract people looking to race on a smaller budget. Some of us keep working to reduce the cost of racing in any way we can with mixed results. At the same time a lot of the costs are completely out of our control, even SCCA's control (cost of gasoline being a prime example).

Sorry, it appears you are not going our ranks. We do need more racers in FV.

my $.02

Bruce

[ajpastore]

Twister...I really was as Bruce says "pulling your chain" and everyone else too. Hence the debris flags. A snob I am not...as Bruce also noted how can one be a snob driving around in 40+ year old technology. Really we're all in the same boat, spending money for an addiction to competition. I certainly didn't knock drag racing but somehow you felt I did and managed to figure I was an ******* and snob for it. Oh well.

-A

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Twister, your posts are taking on a strong resemblence to a troll. Andy said nothing that required your outright derogatory comments towards him. The irony is that you were quick to go off the handle and call him an idiot, yet you are the one who designed a frame in CAD, made shop space, ect. THEN figured out how much it was going to cost.

Something doesn't seem right with your logic and reasoning. Combined with your opinionated posts makes me wonder what your motivation here is. Not a single person has made a negative comment towards you or your desires, yet you are quick to cut others.

Perhaps thats why SCCA road racing isn't for you - most of us have respect for our fellow racers, as we understand what each of us go through in order to compete. Sure, we all have a select few that we don't get a long with, but I can't recall anyone in this family ever calling somone they don't even know an idiot outright. We put our lives in each others hands each time we are on the track, and so called idiots don't last very long in this sport...and neither do those who make rash and harsh decisions.