Shifter Rules

[JohnPaul]

I also think that the CRB proposal is probably pretty close to a workable compromise in that it also allows for pneumatic actuation of the shift lever. IMO this leaves a ton of room for some very effective solutions. I also understand that many do not agree with me as the Geartronics system may or may not be modifable to a non-electric pneumatic-mechanical system.

What a joke, you think that a majority of the (probably best drivers) in FB tossing out the system that is currently legal and cost thousands (not including the work involved) is a compromise??? Meanwhile most of the people opposed are non FB drivers, not drivers at all or people that are not competitive......I'm sure these people are the true future of FB. Even all the people I know that run FB with mechanical shifters are opposed to such BS.
Any new rule that bans any of these systems that our friends have invested so much time and money into is total unacceptable. . I will protest a new rule by running my car in FS not FB and will try to get as many people as I can to do the same. Maybe we can get the numbers of entries so low that someone will take notice, I would certainly bet there will be no new drivers.
I personally believe we'll get this worked out and have the rules written the correct way, once that happens I'll push all of us that believe in these systems to fight to see F600's get to use them as well.

[Stan Clayton]

At the runoffs Schweitz offered to put somebody in his car and let them go try it.

Neal Wallace has offered to provide scrutineers software.

Either of those would make it more verifiable than engines are.

This isn't about Geartronics, per se, Wren. It is about where the members want the class to go.

Even though I think the Geartronics is not complaint to the current rules, I personally think systems like it should be permitted. After all, FB wasn't intended strictly as a motorcycle-powered version of FC. If it had been, we could have imposed inlet restrictors, skinny tires and open diffs and put them back in that class.

No, what folks wanted was a class in the same price range as FC, but which offered higher performance and a more current technological twist to appeal to a younger driver set. After all, grey hair and an AARP card are practically required to drive FV, FF or FC.

In that vein, to me systems like the Geartronics fit right in with screaming 12,000 RPM latest-generation motorcycle engines, jewel-like 6-sp sequential gearboxes and state of the art EFI systems. Those other classes, with due respect to the Fit in FF, are in a 1960's mindset with points-based ignition, a carburetor and a "row your own" 4-speed rock crusher. They were state of the art then, but they're woefully "vintage" nowadays.

Moreover, the cry that systems like the Geartronics are "too expensive and drive up the cost of racing" falls on deaf ears with me. A one-time $5k is expensive? Meh...what is expensive is overhauling that Pinto every 15 hours or so. Or having to spend money to buy gears for that $8-grand LD-200. And tires...don't get me started on tires.

That's why I voted to open up the rule for FB when it finally came to a vote on the F/SRAC after months of debate. I think systems like the Geartronics are good for the class. I also think they're not currently compliant, and so the rule should be changed. But I think going to mechanical-only is the wrong direction.

[Mike Devins]

I also think that the CRB proposal is probably pretty close to a workable compromise in that it also allows for pneumatic actuation of the shift lever. IMO this leaves a ton of room for some very effective solutions. I also understand that many do not agree with me as the Geartronics system may or may not be modifable to a non-electric pneumatic-mechanical system.

Jay,

Unfortunately even though you can shift pneumatically you would need to do it with a shuttle valve since you are not allowed to have a wire any where in the system. So I guess that you could push the lever in the cockpit and that would be mechanically connected to the shuttle valve but throttle blipping would also need to be done mechanically (I know it is possible) and ignition interrupt could not be done. You would have to need a second contraption to unthrottle the car. All this is possible but I would rather have an I-Phone than two can and a string. (I don't know much about the smiley faces, just trust me that I am trying to be funny.

[Jnovak]

What I said was "close to a workable compromise" I did not state that the CRB proposal is the answer.

I also said "I also understand that many do not agree with me as the Geartronics system may or may not be modifable to a non-electric pneumatic-mechanical system"

I did not state that the Geartronics should be outlawed. I was actually thinking that a few smart people could write up a rule that would work for all including the Geartronics folks. Obviously I was totally wrong to attempt to start a dialog that just might work for everyone in the class.

JP & others: Please accept my abject apologies.

Jay Novak

[ghickman]

I'm with Stan on the OPEN SHIFTER RULE. I say we open this up to anything goes. I want this class to grow and attract YOUNG talent. I see this as the only way to make the class flourish. We do this and you'll see a growth spurt in this class like no other.

The CLOSED LOOP shifters are the way of the future. In the long run we will see the costs of these systems come down, I'll bet my reputation on it.

Stan Clayton for Prez

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm with Stan on the OPEN SHIFTER RULE. I say we open this up to anything goes. I want this class to grow and attract YOUNG talent. I see this as the only way to make the class flourish. We do this and you'll see a growth spurt in this class like no other.

The CLOSED LOOP shifters are the way of the future. In the long run we will see the costs of these systems come down, I'll bet my reputation on it.

Stan Clayton for Prez

That proposal may prove to truly be what the class participants want and the easiest to police .

I think it's time I copy all those posts from those who "obviously know better" about fast ways around the track...

[Jnovak]

Even though I think the Geartronics is not complaint to the current rules, I personally think systems like it should be permitted.

That's why I voted to open up the rule for FB when it finally came to a vote on the F/SRAC after months of debate. I think systems like the Geartronics are good for the class. I also think they're not currently compliant, and so the rule should be changed. But I think going to mechanical-only is the wrong direction.

I happen to agree with you on both of the above bolded statements Stan. Can you expand on them with respect to the other members of the FSRAC?

1. Do any of the other members of the FSRAC also think that the Geartronics is not compliant?

2. What proposal did the FSRAC make to the CRB? Was it the same proposal that the CRB posted in FastTrack, or was it a different proposal that what was posted?

3. If there was an alternative proposal for a rule made to the CRB, what was the alternative proposal?

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Stan Clayton]

Jay, I'm not at liberty to disclose how other members of the F/SRAC voted, or what the final tally was, but I can tell you that I personally was shocked and surprised by the CRB's decision. Stan

[Keith Roberts]

Why wouldn't/shouldn't the vote results be a matter of public record?

[Brett Lane]

They are the super secret society of super secret dudes. If you piss them off, you will be put on double secret probation, and....

There will be no more beer for you!

[Stan Clayton]

They are the super secret society of super secret dudes. If you piss them off, you will be put on double secret probation, and....

There will be no more beer for you!

Well yeah, if you consider having your name, address, email and phone number listed on the SCCA website for every member to see a "super secret society of super secret dudes", you're right.

In the meantime, if you want to know how members voted, send them an email to ask, but I'm not going to drag them into this conversation. In the meantime, Keith is always on my beer list.

[Keith Roberts]

In the meantime, Keith is always on my beer list.

Thanks Stan!

It does seem to me that there should be an easily accessible summary of votes that affect us. Regardless of the SCCA entity doing the voting. Just my opinion.

[Stan Clayton]

It does seem to me that there should be an easily accessible summary of votes that affect us. Regardless of the SCCA entity doing the voting. Just my opinion.

I agree with you 100% on this Keith, and I don't have any issue with disclosing how I vote and why. But for me it's like when Mike Sauce was on the BoD. He readily discussed the issues with folks and was very forthcoming about how he voted and why, but I never saw him dragging the votes of other BoD members into the conversation, even though all their individual votes are published in Fastrack.

It's one thing if another member comes into the thread and volunteers how they voted. Then it's a matter of public discussion, but I can't drag another member in unwittingly and unwillingly. That smacks too much of an ambush. I'm sure you understand.

[Keith Roberts]

It's one thing if another member comes into the thread and volunteers how they voted. Then it's a matter of public discussion, but I can't drag another member in unwittingly and unwillingly. That smacks too much of an ambush. I'm sure you understand.

I do. I appreciate your willingness to state your opinion on the forum. And don't expect you to expose other members opinions. They should do it themselves.

[Brett Lane]

That last post was another attempt at humor. Stan, you are correct- so I put my warped sense of humor aside, and looked it up. There they are, all of the CRB members. Names, addresses, phone numbers too.

I do have an interest in this, or as they say, a dog in this fight. So I'll take my interests off this site and go directly to the source.

Have a nice day.

[formulasuper]

What a joke, you think....
Any new rule that bans any of these systems that our friends have invested so much time and money into is total unacceptable. . I will protest a new rule by running my car in FS not FB and will try to get as many people as I can to do the same.....

Geez, if you guys do that I'll have to get a turbo for my Busa powered 1150 lb Ralt for sure! That whizzy shifter is going to end up costing me money & I'm not even in that class!

[John LaRue]

I was in favor of what I believe was option 3 in the survey which provided "Shifting mechanisms and control are unrestricted as long as the driver initiates the shift."

[Northwind]

Initiate the shift with mental telepathy (automatic shifting)

[Cblough]

Some background:

I'm in the middle of building a chassis. After a lot of research, I decided to build an FB car rather than an F500 or Formula F. The cost-to-fun ratio seems to be in the sweet spot I'm looking for in this class of car.

That said, let me throw my hat into the ring. As a likely newcomer to FB racing in 2012 (if I get my car done), the sheer acrimony of the debate is troubling to me. Look. I'm coming into this class because it allows for a fast, fun, /extremely/ cheap for the performance car to be constructed and raced.

Are motorcycle engines cheap? Sure, especially older ones. Are they so cheap that I want to burn one up every weekend because I miss a shift? No, not so much. I have better things to do with my time than replace/rebuild engines that were destroyed simply because one camp of this debate wants to ban something based on perceived intent of the rules. OTOH, I don't want the burden of 10k in electronic shifting aids made a virtual requirement just to get within 10 seconds/lap of the well-funded cars.

Look, so long as driver skill is the /primary/ determinant in how fast a car goes, and it is essentially a $$$$-neutral choice, why not allow it?

Honestly, I don't care WHAT happens. What I, personally, want is for this debate to be put to bed one way or the other. I want the rules for 2012 to be agreed upon sooner rather than later, so that I can finish my car and go have fun.

Then again, I'm a complete noob here, so my opinion hardly matters.

[starkejt]

Where in VA are you?

[Cblough]

About an hour west of Washington, D.C. About an hour and a half from Summit Point.

[Zcurves]

I'm with JohnPaul on this one. I just bought my car in March. It came with a Flatshifter. The previous owner could not get the paddle shifting system to be effective or reliable, so he removed the heavy solenoid that actuated the manual shift lever. The paddles are still there and they look cool, but are inop. I like the Flatshifter system. I paid for it in the cost of the car and I have no intention of taking it off. I will run in FS if they pass this BS.

What a joke, you think that a majority of the (probably best drivers) in FB tossing out the system that is currently legal and cost thousands (not including the work involved) is a compromise??? Meanwhile most of the people opposed are non FB drivers, not drivers at all or people that are not competitive......I'm sure these people are the true future of FB. Even all the people I know that run FB with mechanical shifters are opposed to such BS.
Any new rule that bans any of these systems that our friends have invested so much time and money into is total unacceptable. . I will protest a new rule by running my car in FS not FB and will try to get as many people as I can to do the same. Maybe we can get the numbers of entries so low that someone will take notice, I would certainly bet there will be no new drivers.
I personally believe we'll get this worked out and have the rules written the correct way, once that happens I'll push all of us that believe in these systems to fight to see F600's get to use them as well.

[F1000champ]

Easy solution to all your concerns. Run in the F1K Series in 2012. Shifting is open!

[Wren]

OTOH, I don't want the burden of 10k in electronic shifting aids made a virtual requirement just to get within 10 seconds/lap of the well-funded cars.

The geartronics systems are ~$4800 and are not a requirement.

Look, so long as driver skill is the /primary/ determinant in how fast a car goes, and it is essentially a $$$$-neutral choice, why not allow it?

Let's be honest, the best driver in the FB field did not win the runoffs, he finished third. It had nothing to do with the shifters though.

I'm with JohnPaul on this one. I just bought my car in March. It came with a Flatshifter. The previous owner could not get the paddle shifting system to be effective or reliable, so he removed the heavy solenoid that actuated the manual shift lever. The paddles are still there and they look cool, but are inop. I like the Flatshifter system. I paid for it in the cost of the car and I have no intention of taking it off. I will run in FS if they pass this BS.

Don't forget to write your letter.

[Mike Devins]

I will run in FS if they pass this BS.

Please write the CRB and the BOD - posting here will make no difference in the direction that the club goes.

[John LaRue]

The CRB has made thier recommendation to the BOD; review FASTRACKS. Any commentary should be directed to the BOD as the future of this issue is in their hands at this point.

[Wren]

The CRB has made thier recommendation to the BOD; review FASTRACKS. Any commentary should be directed to the BOD as the future of this issue is in their hands at this point.

Not to mention that the CRB has shown a strong willingness to not give a damn about what the members want anyways.

[Mike Devins]

The CRB has made thier recommendation to the BOD; review FASTRACKS. Any commentary should be directed to the BOD as the future of this issue is in their hands at this point.

I have sent my comments to both - surely can not hurt.

[JohnPaul]

I'm with JohnPaul on this one. I just bought my car in March. It came with a Flatshifter. The previous owner could not get the paddle shifting system to be effective or reliable, so he removed the heavy solenoid that actuated the manual shift lever. The paddles are still there and they look cool, but are inop. I like the Flatshifter system. I paid for it in the cost of the car and I have no intention of taking it off. I will run in FS if they pass this BS.

Get James Lee to mess with the paddles, he has it down. It is awesome once it's set correctly. And screw them don't remove anything.

Easy solution to all your concerns. Run in the F1K Series in 2012. Shifting is open!

I have my car up for trade on the dsr forum but if I don't get a dsr (and can afford it) I'm going to run your series 100%. I dont think anyone in FB should run in anything else but your series or the west coast pro series. F**k the police (scca) don't give'm a dollar

Not to mention that the CRB has shown a strong willingness to not give a damn about what the members want anyways.

It makes me sick to my stomach

[Alex Pate]

but the pro series both will be sanctioned by SCCA PRO RACING.. so they still get money..

maybe they are a different business identity completely compared to scca club. Just fyi.

[JohnPaul]

but the pro series both will be sanctioned by SCCA PRO RACING.. so they still get money..

maybe they are a different business identity completely compared to scca club. Just fyi.

Damn it, the man always tryin to keep a brotha down!

[Zcurves]

James Lee maintained my car for the previous owner and decided to go away from the paddles because they were a PITA. My teammate is looking to buy a FB and I'd like to get him into a Firman. PM me your asking price and parts list if you'd be interested in selling.

[quote=JohnPaul;297476]Get James Lee to mess with the paddles, he has it down. It is awesome once it's set correctly. And screw them don't remove anything.

[billwald]

It appears to me that the FB rules for 2012 will be no electric assist shifters. But there is a no lift unit out there that utilize's mechanical paddles or a stick and has only one wire to disconnect for club events. I've heard it's less than $1,000. Otherwise, it's FS.

So what is everyone going to do for club events?

[Wren]

It appears to me that the FB rules for 2012 will be no electric assist shifters. But there is a no lift unit out there that utilize's mechanical paddles or a stick and has only one wire to disconnect for club events. I've heard it's less than $1,000. Otherwise, it's FS.

It is definitely not set in stone that there will be no electric assist shifters for FB in 2012.

The BOD has not voted yet, and I was told that they will vote in June on whether or not this is a rule for 2012.

You can still write the BOD and talk to your area rep. The BOD has some pretty good people on it and they have had to come in before and clean up the messes that the CRB makes for them. I really hope that they do that again in this case.

The bigger problem is where is anyone going to race their FB in 2012? This is the last year of probation for FB and unless people start actually getting their FB's out and racing, FB will not make 2.5 entries/race. Based on my reading of the GCR, FB doesn't get an extra year of probation after their 5 year probationary period is up. The BOD certainly could choose to give another year, but two pro series and banning electronic shifters will certainly kill it after another year. People should probably think about what the value of their new fancy car will do when there is no FB national racing before they vote to alienate the large majority of the class.

[JohnPaul]

I'm going to run as an FS until I can sell it or trade it and get a DSR. I think most will also especially since there in no rule against using it in the Pro series. I don't think people are going to rip them out for club races and then reinstall for the PS. what a bunch of bullsh*t.

[Brandon Dixon]

It appears to me that the FB rules for 2012 will be no electric assist shifters. But there is a no lift unit out there that utilize's mechanical paddles or a stick and has only one wire to disconnect for club events. I've heard it's less than $1,000. Otherwise, it's FS.

So what is everyone going to do for club events?

If those are the rules for 2012, then I am unlikely to run any club events in FB. If the pro series happens, then I'll be there. If the pro series doesn't come together then I'll probably switch to FC and run the F2KCS.

[Purple Frog]

I know this is travesty...

But some FB cars can be converted to F2000 and run with 30+ same class cars seven weekends a year.

I'm writing in again, to tell the powers to be to make FB shifters OPEN.

[JohnPaul]

FB, it was good while it lasted, lol. and I didn't even get started! money well spent!

[starkejt]

If those are the rules for 2012, then I am unlikely to run any club events in FB. If the pro series happens, then I'll be there. If the pro series doesn't come together then I'll probably switch to FC and run the F2KCS.

Be careful, once you go F2KCS, everything else sucks.

[billwald]

I do sometimes miss my old RF03 Zetec. Of course you have to shift those the old fashioned way But I love the FB and class despite the confusion about club rules. Great drivers and beautiful new cars.

I thought the June fastrack was the time to announce any change so I assumed it was a done deal. Don't know where I got that idea.

For my car eitherway, all I was interested in was the no lift upshift system only. Seems cheap reliable and easily disconnected. But I guess I'll wait for further news. Thanks!

Be careful, once you go F2KCS, everything else sucks.