Shifter Rules

[Wren]

It looks like the CRB has decided to ignore FSAC input and outlaw all assisted shifting devices. Anything that has a wire involved will not be legal for 2012.

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...rack-march.pdf

My opinion is that one of the major positives that FB grew on was rules stability. Good job making sure that everyone knows that the CRB and a small component of the FB community will be happy to **** on your investment at the first opportunity.

I would say that there has been some form of SWOL or assisted shifted on 75% of the cars that I have seen and I think I have seen almost every car east of the Mississippi.

I am personally pretty disturbed that the CRB thinks that they know better than the FSAC who built a proposal from knowledgeable people.

Be sure to write the BOD. I know that I will.

[starkejt]

Instead of wasting your effort writing letters, why not spend the time working on getting those zetec bell housings finished?

[Wren]

Instead of wasting your effort writing letters, why not spend the time working on getting those zetec bell housings finished?

They will be done by the end of April.

I still think the BOD needs to do something about a CRB that has consistently proven themselves incapable of doing anything competent or following the membership's guidance. They don't know more about this than the FSAC or the members of the class.

[starkejt]

I still think the BOD needs to do something about a CRB that has consistently proven themselves incapable of doing anything competent or following the membership's guidance. They don't know more about this than the FSAC or the members of the class.

Might as well go for peace on earth and an end to world hunger while you're at it.

[Northwind]

Looks like I won't get much time to enjoy my newly designed SWOL that I just put on the car.

[Jnovak]

It looks like the CRB has decided to ignore FSAC input and outlaw all assisted shifting devices. Anything that has a wire involved will not be legal for 2012.

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...rack-march.pdf

My opinion is that one of the major positives that FB grew on was rules stability. Good job making sure that everyone knows that the CRB and a small component of the FB community will be happy to **** on your investment at the first opportunity.

I would say that there has been some form of SWOL or assisted shifted on 75% of the cars that I have seen and I think I have seen almost every car east of the Mississippi.

I am personally pretty disturbed that the CRB thinks that they know better than the FSAC who built a proposal from knowledgeable people.

Be sure to write the BOD. I know that I will.

My understanding is the the FSRAC tried to write a rule that allowed some sort of assisted shifting but that did not allow computer controls of the shifting. Since the FSRAC could not write a funtional clarification they advised that no electrical or electronic assisted shifting be allowed. I was also told that the letters were much more in favor of restricting the shifting system as opposed to leaving the rule as they were.

This is what I was told 2nd hand & I have not spoken to anyone on the FSRAC about this.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[RobLav]

If you guys are making up some Zetec bell housings, you'd better order up a bunch of LD200 clutch shafts!

(BTW, my letter was for no change in the wording...)

[starkejt]

My understanding is the the FSRAC tried to write a rule that allowed some sort of assisted shifting but that did not allow computer controls of the shifting. Since the FSRAC could not write a funtional clarification they advised that no electrical or electronic assisted shifting be allowed. I was also told that the letters were much more in favor of restricting the shifting system as opposed to leaving the rule as they were.

This is what I was told 2nd hand & I have not spoken to anyone on the FSRAC about this.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

I heard the opposite of that. Is there a way to find out for sure what the letter breakdown was like other than by rumor?

The latest count I have heard is 18 FBs with Geartronics systems, and a few more with other competing systems. Just in case anyone feels that is relevant.

[glenn cooper]

the ratio of for vs against of actual drivers in the class?

This is so BS I can't see too straight.

I can't tell from what I've read - is this a done deal and in the GCR for 2012?

GC

[Wren]

I heard the opposite of that. Is there a way to find out for sure what the letter breakdown was like other than by rumor?

Yes, we need to know how the letters actually came in. Would anyone from the CRB or the FSAC care to comment on this?

The latest count I have heard is 18 FBs with Geartronics systems, and a few more with other competing systems. Just in case anyone feels that is relevant.

Those 18 FB's with the Geartronics probably made up the people with the highest participation as well. Who thinks it is a good idea to piss off the people who are actually making the class work?

Is there anyone out there who is satisfied with this ruling?

For people not in the know- NO ONE who is fast has made a mechanical shifter work. These cars suck with them. Period.

[Northwind]

Wren,

You guys were fast without one, just not quite as fast.

[RobLav]

It is not a done deal yet - still has to go to the BOD. Still time to write more letters.

[Daryl DeArman]

It would seem to me that since this isn't a vote, rather a gathering of input. Input to help the decision makers decide which direction to proceed. One well-written letter making a few valid points will outweigh 10 or so poorly written letters that just say, "rule is adequate as written" Ironic, I know.

[Wren]

Wren,

You guys were fast without one, just not quite as fast.

The mechanical shifter still was not consistent enough. But on a single lap comparison the mechanical shifter was just as fast. Brandon unloaded a mechanically shifted car at the Cat National and ran 9.9 with an engine that blew up in the last race and was running wrong before that. Then after all of the testing and development that he did on the car over 4 months he ran a 7.979 with an engine that was admittedly not too good. Does anyone believe that was in the shifter? I was there. It wasn't.

[Northwind]

That's what I meant, over race distance not a lap.

[Wren]

It shouldn't be a surprise that the air shifters are working better than the mechanical shifters, the air shifters have been around longer and they have had more time to develop. The class is brand ****ing new. The solution is not to handicap the people who have made their shifter work successfully and alienate the majority of the class. The solution is to give the mechanical shifters time to develop.

This is a bad decision and the CRB does not know what they are doing. I would really like for the BOD to step up and let people on the fence about FB know that there will be some stability.

[Thomas Copeland]

?

About sums it up.



Trying to find the "Jihad" smiley but apparently it doesn't exist....

[Wren]

It would seem to me that since this isn't a vote, rather a gathering of input. Input to help the decision makers decide which direction to proceed. One well-written letter making a few valid points will outweigh 10 or so poorly written letters that just say, "rule is adequate as written" Ironic, I know.

they asked people to choose between 3 options, that sounds like a vote to me.

The other option would be that the CRB believes that they have the technical competence to speak intelligently on something like this. I doubt that even they are delusional enough to believe that.

[Thomas Copeland]

I does appear we do have until 2012 to sort this out. That should be enough time to set things right.

Personally, I find writing letters to the CRB a complete waste of time. I certainly won't bother doing so anymore.

Other available options need to be explored now.

[Christopher Crowe]

I just built a whole chassis around the idea of two pedal operation -- brake and throttle. So I am a major proponent of Geartronics systems -- and what they do for the catagory (like bringing it into the 21st Century).

If this is not yet in stone, how do we lobby and how do we lobby HARD?

Thanks,

Chris Crowe

[RussMcB]

The worst part about this news is the very real financial impact to the many who have spent money (and time, energy) on electrical shifters. The BOD should consider that aspect when they make their decision. It's also a disappointment to others planning to get them, or attracted to that modern technology in the FB class.

But, for those in the class now without them, and future FB racers, wouldn't this rule out an expensive option that really isn't needed? And if no one has them, doesn't that level the playing field?

Looks like I won't get much time to enjoy my newly designed SWOL that I just put on the car.

I thought yours was an all-mechanical design Jay was also using in the F600 cars. Does your new design have an electrical component?

[Mike B]

Personally, I find writing letters to the CRB a complete waste of time. I certainly won't bother doing so anymore.

Good idea. Do you think that's one of the reasons you've gotten to this point?

The very first paragraph of Fastrack:

The following subjects will be referred to the Board of Directors for approval. Address all comments, both for and against, to the Club Racing Board. It is the BoD’s policy to withhold voting on a rules change until there has been input from the membership on the presented rules. Member input is suggested and encouraged. Unless otherwise stated, the effective date of these proposed rules will be 1/1/2012. Please send your comments via the form at http://www.crbscca.com/

Like last fall, those against this possible rule change are a very vocal majority on Apexspeed but my gut feeling is that only a small percentage actually put their money where their mouth is by writing the CRB.

Now's your chance.

[starkejt]

my gut feeling is that only a small percentage actually put their money where their mouth is by writing the CRB.

Don't be so sure. I'm hoping the numbers get posted here by an appropriate party. If they do, I think your gut might be surprised.

[Jnovak]

But, for those in the class now without them, and future FB racers, wouldn't this rule out an expensive option that really isn't needed? And if no one has them, doesn't that level the playing field?I thought yours was an all-mechanical design Jay was also using in the F600 cars. Does your new design have an electrical component?

Yes, Russ you are right. It will rule out an expensive option & the cost to race at the front of FB will go down.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[starkejt]

Yes, Russ you are right. It will rule out an expensive option & the cost to race at the front of FB will go down.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

Rule out an expensive option? There are well over 20 of these expensive options out there in this class already. Too late.

[DonArm]

This is really a very ignorant decision. First, none of the people on the CRB run an FB. Second what in the hell are they basing their decision on, rules that were badly written and worded in the first place? This class appears to have grown by leaps and bounds in a very short time and now these supposed well informed intelligent individuals who DON'T participate in the class are going to make a decision to ruin it!!!! They obviously DO NOT care about what the individuals who are running in the class want.
I appears from most of the conversations I have seen on this forum that a majority of the people in the class want some type of electronic or pneumatic shifter system be it computer controlled or not.
Wasn't there a poll on here somewhere asking peoples opinions?
What the hell happened to listening to the people ?
I say screw their rules if a majority of the class continues to run their system even though the rules say it's "illegal" what are they going to do, disqualify everyone?
This is just stupid!!! We really need to move forward rather than stay in the 19th century of racing technology!!! I see why NASA got started, if only their open wheel series was on the East Coast, I'd go back to running with them.
Sorry, for the rant, but I have been spending a lot of very hard earned (60-65hr work weeks) money to pay for the car I'm building, and one of the draws was allowing the shifter system.
Stupid Stupid Stupid!!!

[Thomas Copeland]

Mike, I did write to the CRB! Several times. My fingers almost went numb from all the typing. It didn't do one whit of good whatsoever. They just decided to patently ignore the wishes of a majority of those that make up the FB field (as well as all sense of logic) and just do whatever the hell they felt like doing anyway.

Damn the torpodoes, full speed ahead!!!! Now the entire class is in a sinking boat. Real smart.

Might as well been lying on a beach in Cabo getting drunk. Apparently it would have been a hell of lot more productive than writing letters to the CRB! Sure as hell would have been alot more fun.

That's why I say time to explore other options. These guys have already proven they won't listen.

[Mike B]

Wren,
I'm the one getting excited?

[Thomas Copeland]

I'm not excited! I'm just on my third mai tai.

[Mike B]

I'm just on my third mai tai.

Well then, now's the time to write that letter...

[ghickman]

I've spent the last 5 months developing a system that is half the cost of the Geartronics and functions very similar.

I raced with it for the first time at Cal Speedway last month and it was awesome.

After using a mech. paddle for the last 2 season switching to my air shifter was amazing. I'm sure it will save stress on the engine and gearbox which will in the end result in lower engine costs.

Like Thomas Copeland I have sent countless letters to the CRB. I'm not giving up on this, we need to all stay together on this and hammer them hard with letters.

In my opinion the mech. shifters in these bike engined cars are problematic and likewise hard on the engines.

I'm not in this biz to sell shifters and make money, I did it for my own use. If others can benefit from my work thats even better. These cars are so much fun to drive and certainly worth fighting the CRB to get them to do what is good for the class.

[Wren]

If this is not yet in stone, how do we lobby and how do we lobby HARD?

Thanks,

Chris Crowe

Two things to understand:

1. The vocal minority trying to outlaw the electronic shifters don't care about your or your car. They are too busy saving the class to be concerned with the participants.

2. The CRB does not make rules, the BOD does. Email bod@scca.com and your email will go on to all of them. Then try to call or end up in the same place at the same time as your director. Talk to him face to face and explain the situation, explain about how this is going to absolutely screw over you and the majority of the class and explain how the CRB is going against the FSAC reccomendation. I also plan to focus on the success so far of FB and the need for rules stability. We need them to speak on this and do something soon.

But, for those in the class now without them, and future FB racers, wouldn't this rule out an expensive option that really isn't needed? And if no one has them, doesn't that level the playing field?

Sorry, it absolutely does not. Right now there are no cars being delivered with a functional/reliable manual shifter. If someone develops a reliable manual shifter they will have an even bigger advantage. Right now that is going to be the person with the best design and fabrication abilities. That person would also have to be a damn fool to be public about what their system does or how it works given the current climate. At least right now if someone wants a reliable shifting system they can get one.

People also need to get over the expense of the system. The system costs $4800. If you ever downshift too early and have a mechanical overrev, I can almost guarantee that your bills for this and the ensuing fire will be more than $4800.

Besides, how many new people are going to be interested in FB if we show that we are more than happy to eat our own and not protect investments.

The system makes even more sense for prep shops and people trying to rent a car out to others. I assume that if I go and rev someone's motor to 15k and blow it up then I am on the hook for the associated costs and I would likely have a bad taste in my mouth about FB. Geartronics prevents that and provides a selling point for the rental. The systems are just easier on the engines and gearboxes.

Don't be so sure. I'm hoping the numbers get posted here by an appropriate party. If they do, I think your gut might be surprised.

+1

[Wren]

Good idea. Do you think that's one of the reasons you've gotten to this point?

The very first paragraph of Fastrack:

Umm, that paragraph is talking about the BOD. My experience has been the BOD is made up of much more reasonable people. Even when I have written to disagree with a decision that they have made, it is common to get well reasoned responses back in a personal email from many of them. It is pretty tough to get upset about that. I will definitely write to them and talk to the ones that I see at the track over the next month and I actually have some faith that they will listen.

The CRB on the other hand is proving once again that they have the reverse Midas touch. Everything they touch turns to ****.

Wren,


I'm the one getting excited?

Hey, I'm in the shop wiring up all the outlets and switches. I just have my iphone with me.

[Thomas Copeland]

Blitz the BOD!

Great slogan.

[DonArm]

Mike B.

It seems you have spent a lot of time to get this class to where it is and that is very much appreciated, and now, I'll bet in addition to losing participates the class will lose series sponsors after 2011 also if this rule goes through.
What are these guy's thinking?

[Wren]

the ratio of for vs against of actual drivers in the class?

This is so BS I can't see too straight.

I can't tell from what I've read - is this a done deal and in the GCR for 2012?

GC

Not a done deal at all. Write the BOD and talk to Phil.

Give me a call tomorrow, or now if you feel like it.

[starkejt]

The CRB on the other hand is proving once again that they have the reverse Midas touch. Everything they touch turns to ****.

Why did you bleep out "gold?"

[10rmotor]

I've spent the last 5 months developing a system that is half the cost of the Geartronics and functions very similar.

I raced with it for the first time at Cal Speedway last month and it was awesome.

After using a mech. paddle for the last 2 season switching to my air shifter was amazing. I'm sure it will save stress on the engine and gearbox which will in the end result in lower engine costs.

Like Thomas Copeland I have sent countless letters to the CRB. I'm not giving up on this, we need to all stay together on this and hammer them hard with letters.

In my opinion the mech. shifters in these bike engined cars are problematic and likewise hard on the engines.

I'm not in this biz to sell shifters and make money, I did it for my own use. If others can benefit from my work thats even better. These cars are so much fun to drive and certainly worth fighting the CRB to get them to do what is good for the class.

Gary, DSR has been running mechanical shifters on bike motors for over twenty years. Yes there have been some failures but they were mostly attributed to certain drivers who didn't know how to shift properly. Personally in over 14 years of running a mechanical shifter I had absolutely zero failures in the transmission or clutch. So they can work.

Not that I have a dog in this fight, and no, I didn't vote.

[Jnovak]

Mike, I did write to the CRB! Several times. My fingers almost went numb from all the typing. It didn't do one whit of good whatsoever. They just decided to patently ignore the wishes of a majority of those that make up the FB field (as well as all sense of logic) and just do whatever the hell they felt like doing anyway.

I think that you are very mistaken that a majority of the class wants assisted shifting. If the number of letters are actually published you will find that it was about 40% who wanted the rules to be left open for shifters. 40% is NOT a majority & I think you should not expect the CRB or the BOD to make a decision that is simply not supported by a majority of letters.

Now I am not saying that additional letters to the CRB & or the BOD cannot have an effect. However the BOD has been very consistant in that they generally support rules changes that are supported by a significant majority but never if not supported by a majority.

Please remember that they do not count 2, 10 or 100 letters from a single member as more than 1 letter. 1 member, 1 letter. If you sent 10 letters it is the same as 1 letter & that is how the system works.

I suggest that we all send letters to the BOD either in support of or against the proposed rules change & then we find out what happens in a couple of months.

Send your letters.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

PS: just so you know I just got a Flatshifter about 1 month ago.

[starkejt]

I think that you are very mistaken that a majority of the class wants assisted shifting. If the number of letters are actually published you will find that it was about 40% who wanted the rules to be left open for shifters. 40% is NOT a majority & I think you should not expect the CRB or the BOD to make a decision that is simply not supported by a majority of letters.

Now I am not saying that additional letters to the CRB & or the BOD cannot have an effect. However the BOD has been very consistant in that they generally support rules changes that are supported by a significant majority but never if not supported by a majority.

Please remember that they do not count 2, 10 or 100 letters from a single member as more than 1 letter. 1 member, 1 letter. If you sent 10 letters it is the same as 1 letter & that is how the system works.

I suggest that we all send letters to the BOD either in support of or against the proposed rules change & then we find out what happens in a couple of months.

Send your letters.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

PS: just so you know I just got a Flatshifter about 1 month ago.

The part you are leaving out is that the 40% in favor of open rules was the plurality. So by your logic, the CRB should not do what they got the most letters in favor of, but rather what a smaller percentage of letters supported. I'd love to hear the logic of how a rule should be changed to outlaw the systems on over 20 cars because the minority of letters wanted such a change.