ACMOTO 200RWHP "ultimate F1000 sleeper motor" package - Thats what they are claiming and legal ?

[Nicholas Belling]

One of our customers just got off the phone with AC moto.

They were asking my customer if i was familiar with their "ultimate F1000 sleeper motor" package that they were advertising.

The motor is like $5899.00 and is supposedly all oem and guaranteed to pass tech, but they claim it can make up to 200 rwhp?

just thought i would let the community know whats being marketed and advertised. We all know its impossible at the wheel to make that hp stock and legal.. maybe at the crank.

12% loss on 200 is 24hp.. at the wheel 176hp..

either way they are aggressive on the marketing side and their claims.

[starkejt]

One of our customers just got off the phone with AC moto.

They were asking my customer if i was familiar with their "ultimate F1000 sleeper motor" package that they were advertising.

The motor is like $5899.00 and is supposedly all oem and guaranteed to pass tech, but they claim it can make up to 200 rwhp?

just thought i would let the community know whats being marketed and advertised. We all know its impossible at the wheel to make that hp stock and legal.. maybe at the crank with exotic fuel that would get to possible crank numbers.
12% loss on 200 is 24hp.. at the wheel 184hp..

either way they are aggressive on the marketing side and their claims.

200-24=184?

Nice edit, Belling.

[Wren]

My experience has been that there are some engine builders who don't seem to have even read the GCR. The engine builders seem to think that they can build motors to AMA super stock rules and that will be F1000 legal. It's not very close.

If they have machined the head down thinking that they only have to blow under 240 psi, it's not legal. If they have changed the cam timing by pressing the gears off and moving them, it's not legal. If they have an exhaust cam on the intake side, it's not legal even though it's a stock part.

I don't think that the F1000 rules allow someone to make much more horsepower than a stock motor.

[starkejt]

If they have changed the cam timing by pressing the gears off and moving them, it's not legal.

The manual doesn't list cam timing specs. Just tells you to line up the mark on the gear to the mark on the chain. So how does one tell if the gear has been removed from the cam and reinstalled at a different angle? I have even heard that from the factory, the gears are pressed onto the cams at measurably (albeit only slightly) different angles. Could you rule someone's cam illegal because of that if they could produce evidence of this variation from the factory? I have heard FB competitors freely admit to having this done to their engines.

[Wren]

The manual doesn't list cam timing specs. Just tells you to line up the mark on the gear to the mark on the chain. So how does one tell if the gear has been removed from the cam and reinstalled at a different angle? I have even heard that from the factory, the gears are pressed onto the cams at measurably (albeit only slightly) different angles. Could you rule someone's cam illegal because of that if they could produce evidence of this variation from the factory? I have heard FB competitors freely admit to having this done to their engines.

I don't have a manual in front of me, but I still don't think it is legal. It's not stock anymore.

I've heard the same thing from people. I still don't think it is legal.

[Matt King]

Aside from the ethical implications, it's only truly illegal if someone in tech can prove it.

[starkejt]

I don't have a manual in front of me, but I still don't think it is legal. It's not stock anymore.

I've heard the same thing from people. I still don't think it is legal.

I agree that it is not stock, and therefore illegal. But the manual lists nothing about the correct relationship between the cam and the gear (and there's no mark to line the gear up to the cam), nor does it list cam specs or timing. All I'm saying is it is impossible to detect, and people are definitely doing it. I don't see how you could rule an engine illegal for this. And no, I haven't done it.

[Daryl DeArman]

Kind of reminds me of the cambered rear ends on some live axle cars where they weren't allowed to be bent. Absent a factory spec, how does one prove it is or isn't stock?

Surely FSM's list the cam timing events with some tolerance...even if only 15'

[starkejt]

Surely FSM's list the cam timing events with some tolerance...even if only 15'

Not that I can find for Suzuki. Just tells you what marks to line up to install the cam, which comes with the gear pressed on.

[George Dean]

Oh Man, I just have to chime in on this, First of all to get 200 rear wheel horsepower there will have to be some pretty obvious work done to it and easily visable to someone that knew what they were looking at, Even 200 crank horsepower claim means that the engine has had some work done to it that can be seen easily, To get to those numbers the compression ratio has to be modified and as near as I can read in the shop manual there is no reference to removing material from the block or head. So if metal is removed I dont believe the engine is legal anymore, as far as the cam timing specs go, Suzuki does not publish them, But on almost every stock engine I take apart(There has been a few) I check the timing numbers and have come up with an average, from top to bottom they are usually within 4 degrees. So in my opinion that is not that hard to detect.

George

[starkejt]

Oh Man, I just have to chime in on this, First of all to get 200 rear wheel horsepower there will have to be some pretty obvious work done to it and easily visable to someone that knew what they were looking at, Even 200 crank horsepower claim means that the engine has had some work done to it that can be seen easily, To get to those numbers the compression ratio has to be modified and as near as I can read in the shop manual there is no reference to removing material from the block or head. So if metal is removed I dont believe the engine is legal anymore, as far as the cam timing specs go, Suzuki does not publish them, But on almost every stock engine I take apart(There has been a few) I check the timing numbers and have come up with an average, from top to bottom they are usually within 4 degrees. So in my opinion that is not that hard to detect.

George

Thanks, this is good info. How many degrees would you say before it makes a difference in power? And would you feel comfortable declaring someone illegal if they had a cam more than 4 degrees off?

[allof6]

[Wren]

I agree that it is not stock, and therefore illegal. But the manual lists nothing about the correct relationship between the cam and the gear (and there's no mark to line the gear up to the cam), nor does it list cam specs or timing. All I'm saying is it is impossible to detect, and people are definitely doing it. I don't see how you could rule an engine illegal for this. And no, I haven't done it.

I know it is going on and I know you guys are not doing it either.

It can certainly be measured, there just isn't a spec for it in the FSM. One of the many problems with the FB engine rules.

[George Dean]

First of all, I am not the one to say weather or not someone is legal or not, I offered my general knoledge at the runnoffs as a tech advisor. So it is not my call, I do my best to educate the tech people on the obvious things to look at. As far as your cam timing question goes 2 degrees up or down from stock is hardly noticeable, More than that then things start to happen a bit, Build up the compression then things really start happening.

George

[JohnPaul]

who is ACMOTO?

BTW: taking the cams off, degreeing them and re-pressing them to be optimal is very difficult. If you don't get it right you'd have to pull everything apart and re-do them. I don't think they'd degree'd right or optimal. I just think it would be more trouble than it's worth and you would never them perfect. That's why they make adjustable aftermarket cams.

[starkejt]

First of all, I am not the one to say weather or not someone is legal or not, I offered my general knoledge at the runnoffs as a tech advisor. So it is not my call, I do my best to educate the tech people on the obvious things to look at. As far as your cam timing question goes 2 degrees up or down from stock is hardly noticeable, More than that then things start to happen a bit, Build up the compression then things really start happening.

George

I know it's not your job to rule on legality. What I meant was if you felt the cams were consistent enough from the factory that if someone's was off a few degrees, one could be sure they modified it.

[Matt King]

who is ACMOTO?

BTW: taking the cams off, degreeing them and re-pressing them to be optimal is very difficult. If you don't get it right you'd have to pull everything apart and re-do them. I don't think they'd degree'd right or optimal. I just think it would be more trouble than it's worth and you would never them perfect. That's why they make adjustable aftermarket cams.

Not if you have a Cam Doctor.

[brownslane]

So, to move forward, is there a way to establish a "base line" specification for stock cams, and only allow a variance of say, plus or minus 2 degrees? And if someone wants to "mess around" with that amount let them?

This would allow for variance in the cams, establish a concrete number that tech could investigate, and perhaps close a "loop hole" that exists.

This sort of thing will always happen. We all have seen it before. If George says a couple of degrees one way or the other will have no appreciable affect, then I believe him.

Just saying....

Tom

[JohnPaul]

How about decking the head? I bet that if someone decked the head it would be almost impossible to detect. I could be wrong though. I would say that would be a bigger concern than degree'ing the cams.

[starkejt]

So, to move forward, is there a way to establish a "base line" specification for stock cams, and only allow a variance of say, plus or minus 2 degrees? And if someone wants to "mess around" with that amount let them?

This would allow for variance in the cams, establish a concrete number that tech could investigate, and perhaps close a "loop hole" that exists.

This sort of thing will always happen. We all have seen it before. If George says a couple of degrees one way or the other will have no appreciable affect, then I believe him.

Just saying....

Tom

So what do we do? Get someone to check/average several cams from each manufacturer/model year to come up with a baseline? Seems like a neverending project.

[RobLav]

Degreeing the cams is not going to change the HP very much - mostly alter the curves. Seems to me my Yamahas had adjustable cam sprockets anyway, and the spec is not in the manual. That's wide open, and I believe it should stay that way - mostly because there is not much to be gained.

Decking the heads or block is a different story. That and using thinner head gaskets will raise the compression a lot - which will provide a good jump in HP. My Yamaha manual specified the minimum head deck height, but I don't recall if it specified that on the block. Of course though, managing the thickness of head gaskets can be difficult. To my reading of the GCR, thinner head gaskets are not IAW the rules. And of course they are readily available. Rule says compression must remain stock. No thinner head gaskets nor decking allowed. Period! If you mess up a head, then get another one. They are relatively cheap.

Last I heard, SCCA has a tool/method to measure compression ratio.

[starkejt]

Degreeing the cams is not going to change the HP very much - mostly alter the curves. Seems to me my Yamahas had adjustable cam sprockets anyway, and the spec is not in the manual. That's wide open, and I believe it should stay that way - mostly because there is not much to be gained.

Decking the heads or block is a different story. That and using thinner head gaskets will raise the compression a lot - which will provide a good jump in HP. My Yamaha manual specified the minimum head deck height, but I don't recall if it specified that on the block. Of course though, managing the thickness of head gaskets can be difficult. To my reading of the GCR, thinner head gaskets are not IAW the rules. And of course they are readily available. Rule says compression must remain stock. No thinner head gaskets nor decking allowed. Period! If you mess up a head, then get another one. They are relatively cheap.

Last I heard, SCCA has a tool/method to measure compression ratio.

Agree that degreeing the cams by itself is really only an academic discussion.

Suzuki lists a minimum dimension for the head as well, and I don't think there is really any room to machine it and not fall under the minimum. Plus, the manual specifically says that the head should be replaced if not flat. No provision for machining it flat. So if your head is machined to increase compression, I don't think that would be hard to catch.

Regarding measuring compression ratio, I have been told that from the factory, the Suzukis are nowhere near the 12.5:1 number listed in the service manual. So if someone built up the chamber and reshaped it, they could have more compression than it had from the factory but still less than the number in the book with no way to check that other than an experienced guy like George knowing it didn't look right.

[ACMotoUSA]

Hello Fellow F1000 Racers,

We at AC Moto, are posting on this thread just to Clarify this issue. We completely apologize for this Huge Misunderstanding.

We at AC Moto do build engines and have many different engine packages for all types of racing sanctions. The "Ultimate sleeper package" is one of them but is in NO WAY built off the F1000 Rule book nor do we offer this to any of F1000 racers. all though we do offer a number of engine packages.

We here at AC Moto have been featured in july's issue of engine builder magazine and have worked TOO HARD to build this company name from the ground up just to throw it all away by offering an illegal engine that will jeopardize not only our company but our customers careers ,All tho we do provide complete engine kits for the f1000 world which are completely 100% factory "bone stock", but we do offer an optimizing blueprint service as far as bearing clearances and tolerances go to retrieve the full potential and life out of these engines.

We are here to serve you all and all racers around the world with our engine kits.

If you have any further question regarding this matter or any of our services,Please just feel free to give us a call, Thank You and we hope you now understand. HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all!!!


Best Regards,

[carnut169]

One of our customers just got off the phone with AC moto.

They were asking my customer if i was familiar with their "ultimate F1000 sleeper motor" package that they were advertising.

The motor is like $5899.00 and is supposedly all oem and guaranteed to pass tech, but they claim it can make up to 200 rwhp?

Sounds like it was offered to an F1000 racer.

IMHO, if you are selling an "F1000 sleeper motor" you are going after the customers who are looking for an unfair advantage. That's what a sleeper is.... you can't tell by looking at it, but it's got more juice.

This is the type of thing that will result in sealed motors from a handful of sources.

[brownslane]

So what do we do? Get someone to check/average several cams from each manufacturer/model year to come up with a baseline? Seems like a neverending project.

When I read the original title, I said to myself, "here we go again"....

The simple answer to your question and comment is maybe "Yes. You might have to start verifying what is stock or not". That is what is needed if you want everyone to stay legal. Not my call. if you read my missive a little further I also said to defer to George (as the authorized tech "consultant") and if he deems this a significant issue, then you need to address it. Iif it is a non-issue, then don't worry! Sounds like cam timing is a bit of a non-issue...at least right now, for these engines. Next year, who knows!

And tech inspection is a never-ending project. Unless you freeze the year of an engine, there will always be new challenges as designs change. What about tech inspection of the car itself...is this not a never-ending project?

The motivated competitor will always look for the loophole or push to the limit of the rules.
The whole purpose of rules and tech enforcement is to try to keep the playing field as level as possible.

And I am positive that there are competitors and motor builders out there stretching the word stock!! OK how about this: any "pro-built" engine must be presented to tech with dyno sheets, sealed by the builder and with a signed affadavit that the builder used nothing but stock parts and did not modify the engine.....

What about a $4,500 claimer clause. Anybody can buy out anyone else's engine (long block) for $4,500??....

Best and keep smiling, Tom

[JohnPaul]

when was the last time anyone was protested in FB for anything?

[starkejt]

when was the last time anyone was protested in FB for anything?

At the runoffs when the front row was protested for bodywork/diffuser/floor issues.

[Marty Nygard]

Ever since I have been involved in SCCA (30 years, they even asked me if I wanted a pin!), the classes that required stock engines have always had the option of stock or more stock. I remember a VW Rabbit showroom stock engine that was made more stock by, among other things, a balance job performed by fly cutting inside the piston pin bores. The last I checked (about three years ago), a Miata showroom stock engine could be made more stock for about $7,000; more than the cost of the much debated computerized shifters. The only way not to have people searching for the unfair advantage is to limit the types of engines within a formula. It's hard to cheat a Pinto engine in FF because everyone knows what the look like, sound like and feel like. If the class was restricted to any 1600cc engine ever made, certifying compliance would be harder. If FB were to ever achieve the same participation at FF, FC or FV, you better be prepared for more than one car with more stock versions of the latest and whizziest bike motors.
Marty

[Thomas Copeland]

Groundhog day already?

Engine freeze? Open ECU? Where have I heard that before?

Oh, never mind....I'll just wait until it comes out on video....

[Nicholas Belling]

Sounds like it was offered to an F1000 racer.

IMHO, if you are selling an "F1000 sleeper motor" you are going after the customers who are looking for an unfair advantage. That's what a sleeper is.... you can't tell by looking at it, but it's got more juice.

This is the type of thing that will result in sealed motors from a handful of sources.

ultimate sleeper does question the building of a motor with the intent of not getting caught due to the alterations made and undetectablility of such performance alterations to the average scca tech.

I do know george will be present at many high attendance events with f1000's this year and motors may get stripped down for inspection if its deemed as so..

But so far the racers I have raced with and seen running all year have had good integrity and having been running honest motors. which is a good thing.

good drivers are good drivers. which will always question the legality of there motors of course just because they are on the pointy end of the grid.

[ACMotoUSA]

Sounds like it was offered to an F1000 racer.

IMHO, if you are selling an "F1000 sleeper motor" you are going after the customers who are looking for an unfair advantage. That's what a sleeper is.... you can't tell by looking at it, but it's got more juice.

This is the type of thing that will result in sealed motors from a handful of sources.

Hello all,

Thank You for your reply/opinion. Just to clarify, this engine package has never been advertised or labeled as the "f1000 sleeper motor". This engine package was clearly titled " THE ULTIMATE SLEEPER", Which in NO way was directed to F1000...

This engine package has been exclusively produced for out fellow Drag Racers, and Sprint car Racers. We produce several different engine build recipes for all different race leagues that are allowed to run these worked engines. We here a AC Moto receive numerous calls each day for our Engine Kit, Engine Builds, and Services, And if one of these calls are regarding an Engine kit, We will provide information on our services. It is up to the customer to determine what they will be needing as far as services and builds. If they happen to be in the F1000 World, We will notify them what is legal, And what is not...

BTW: "The ULTIMATE SLEEPER" IS 100% consists of 100% OEM Suzuki Internals, But the configuration of this engine is out ruled...

Thank You

[glenn cooper]

Hello all,

Thank You for your reply/opinion. Just to clarify, this engine package has never been advertised or labeled as the "f1000 sleeper motor". This engine package was clearly titled " THE ULTIMATE SLEEPER", Which in NO way was directed to F1000...

This engine package has been exclusively produced for out fellow Drag Racers, and Sprint car Racers. We produce several different engine build recipes for all different race leagues that are allowed to run these worked engines. We here a AC Moto receive numerous calls each day for our Engine Kit, Engine Builds, and Services, And if one of these calls are regarding an Engine kit, We will provide information on our services. It is up to the customer to determine what they will be needing as far as services and builds. If they happen to be in the F1000 World, We will notify them what is legal, And what is not...

BTW: "The ULTIMATE SLEEPER" IS 100% consists of 100% OEM Suzuki Internals, But the configuration of this engine is out ruled...

Thank You

Are you Sal?

[brownslane]

"ULTIMATE SLEEPER"

By definition, these words mean "looks legal but is not"....

Equivalent terms: Cheater Motor, Illegal, an expensive way to add a couple of horsepower


I guess this is a marketing way to attract cheaters to your customer list. If you are trying to promote your business as an honest engine supplier, the the wording may be a little inappropriate

Just sayin'


Best, Tom

[VehDyn]

C'mon guys. Do you really have enough information to say these guys are trying to make cheater motos based on a second hand conversation that may have been a misunderstanding? Really? If you dont want to do business with them, then don't; but I don't think we should throw them under the bus with the current amount of data.


Personally, I have never worked with them. If somebody gives them a shot, please report back. Just sayin....

[ACMotoUSA]

Are you Sal?

Hello,

Im sorry but my name is Abe, We do not have anyone in our facility by that name.

[Matt King]

I don't think the term sleeper implies cheating. It certainly doesn't in the world of hot rod cars where the term originated and means something that looks stock and slow but it actually fast as hell.

[glenn cooper]

Just checking!

[RussMcB]

C'mon guys. Do you really have enough information to say these guys are trying to make cheater motos based on a second hand conversation that may have been a misunderstanding? Really? If you dont want to do business with them, then don't; but I don't think we should throw them under the bus with the current amount of data.

That's what I was thinking, too.

[JohnPaul]

I don't think the term sleeper implies cheating. It certainly doesn't in the world of hot rod cars where the term originated and means something that looks stock and slow but it actually fast as hell.

Agreed, sleeper always meant that a car looked that didn't look like anything special but was fast as ****. Mostly used in street drag racing for money. A car that looked like an everyday driver to get someone to bet big money against them only to get there asses handed to them.

[Matt King]

And believe it or not, there are actually people who use these engines in MOTORCYCLES. Can you imagine that? I know, it's really shocking.