Citation Rebuild

[Garry Sharp]

I am going to do a major rebuild on my old Citation over the winter. I am looking at fitting a Silver Bullet body to the Citation chassis (never been tried) or modifying the stock one. This will mean relocating the battery, fire bottle, oil tank and master cylinders. I also want to redo my outboard front shock mounting. My first question is: what are people using to move the lower mount out to where it needs to be under the top mounting position? Long bolt, hollow sleave with bolt inside? Obviously whatever Doug is doing working, but I didn't study it at the ARRC.

Also, if anyone is converting a Citation I'll be glad to help with whatever I can. I have a couple of years with the car under my belt. Free advice to anyone who will build ANY FST in the Southeast Division-hey I won the FST SARRC Championship 2 years running!

I figure since I can't drive any faster, all this should be worth at least a tenth of a second.

Garry

[Bill Bonow]

Garry,

I've got the long lower shock bolt set up. Made a few dozen of them. Give me a call and I'll be glad to send you a kit.

Good deal on the rebuild. Take lots of photos!!

[rgu]

Gary

If you use Bill's lower mount you can put the shock behind the beam for better aero and protect the shock rod at the same time. Just use the pieces SR sells for the upper mount. That's what we use. This lets you set up you shock geometry then finally drill a hole to finally position the shock. Since this is a two piece deal only a base is welded to the beam. If the beam is trashed you'll more than likely have the upper piece ready to bolt on and prepping a new beam requires less fuss.

If you don't have shocks that have internal drop limiters the vertical blade on the SR piece is a convenient place to mount a droop rod too.

[Hardingfv32]

A Silver Bullet body is more aero than any version of a Citation?

Brian

[Garry Sharp]

I think so. There's got to be some reason I 'm down 4 seconds a lap. (I hope everyone is getting my jokes)

Garry

[Garry Sharp]

Turned down timing wheel to move over oil tank for more cooling options.

[Bill Bonow]

Garry,

Here is some video and photos of a Citation in the UK

Oulton Park in October 2010 running top 5 (orange car)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufm5AcT6I8c

Photos from Jeremy Clark winning the 2000 750MC UK FV Championship




The body really is not that much different from the original 84v. A longer nose and side pontoons removed.

One way to re-invent an old Citation.

P.S. Bolts are on their way

[Garry Sharp]

Bill,

Wow, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Thanks for the pictures.

Garry

[Hardingfv32]

I guess with all your extra power you can afford to exposed the front beam.

As usual, looking fast or stylish is more important than actually aero efficiency?

Brian

[Bill Bonow]

Brian,

Being from LA, you should know that it is always better to look good than to feel good.

You're claiming knowledge of actual aero efficiency of the ball joint beam? The tubes are spaced 30 mm wider than the link pin, but that should mean nothing, right?

Besides, we all know that the English know little to nothing about building race cars in a wind tunnel.........

[Garry Sharp]

Bill,

I have been sitting here deciding whether to respond to the embarrassingly ridiculous statements Brian keeps making, but you did it for me, thanks.

I almost didn't start this thread because I was afraid this would happen. This is all just a hobby to me. I just wanted to learn about design, fabrication, etc. by trying something different. Maybe someone would like what I came up with and try something of their own design.

By the way Brian, the wind tunnel data of MY Citation and the EXACT car Bill showed pictures of that you must have to make these matter of fact statements would really help in my new design.

Garry

[Matt King]

A couple of years ago there was an excellent aerodynamics article in Racecar Engineering that studied the effects of faired vs. unfaired VW beams. As I recall, the difference wasn't significant. I may have saved it somewhere but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

[Bill Bonow]

Garry,

lurk around in here to find more info and photos on the Spyder (UK version of the Citation)

http://www.veecentre.com/index.php?o...tpage&Itemid=1

Matt,

The article was in Race Car Engineering and was written by Sam Collins, a occasional FV racer in the UK.

[Matt King]

I found the photocopy I had in my notebook. It was an Aerobytes column by Simon McBeath from 2007 or 2008 (can't find the issue date), but there is a reference to it being a follow up to an article in V17N12 discussing FV beam fairings.

Quoting from the later McBeath article: "The results were surprising--drag barely changed (actually it went up by one percent with the fairings in place) but more curiously, total (positive) lift increased by 8.5 percent and front lift went up by 23 percent."

The follow up article that I have studied the effects on lift of faired and unfaired beams and concluded that "symmetrical horizontal airfoil sections are always going to induce lift. Given that the wind tunnel showed no drag benefit, this is probably not a modification worth pursuing!"

Increased positive lift resulting from beam fairings? So answer Brian's question, yes, it does appear they can "afford" to leave the front beam exposed.

[Hardingfv32]

My statements are calculated to generate a discussion. Look how many responses it provoked.

1) If you investigate the FV people being written about in the current race magazines you will find they have no more expertise that than the people who brought you Protoforms or Vortechs. These are small operations with no known expertise in aerodynamics. The English FV guys have no better knowledge that we do.

2) Having a car in the wind tunnel proves what? They are testing a poor design, so are they going to learn anything from it? Testing a full size car, how valid is that? Why is it the F1 teams use 40-50% models in there tunnels? Garbage in garbage out...

3) The RaceCar Eng article deals with individual faired beams, not a single large fairing like the Citation. The large fairing is a deferent ball game. I also have more faith in the Citation's designer.

Brian

[Matt King]

So basically because you pulled a statement out of your ass that you can't support, you're challenging the rebuttal evidence as garbage? Why don't you bring some credible tech to the discussion rather than hurling insults.

[Bill Bonow]

Matt/Brian,

Please take it down a few notches. A guy in Georgia who has a converted Citation wants to change the look of the car (yes, more worried about the look than aero, so deal with it ). This is not a aero pissing match in any shape or form and I don't think that the thread is really about that anyway.

My post was tong in cheek while still trying to give Garry some ideas. I'd suggest not taking this FST aero thing so seriously in a class that neither of you compete in.

Of course I would gladly invite Brian to build an aero FST and come join us, we'd love the company. Matt already knows he has a standing invitation to join us.

[Garry Sharp]

I agree. Let's just forget this whole discussion. I'm just a beginning driver working on a 20 year old race car in his garage. Now we're talking about F1 wind tunnel models. By the way, none of that stuff Brian said made any sense to me, but what do I know. I was going to work on more than the front beam anyway...engine cooling scoops, oil cooler and carb intakes, rollbar etc. I'm just trying to have fun and if having a more contemporary looking car makes it more fun, that's what I want to do. (And I bet it will be faster)

Let's move on before this turns in to the infamous "Leading arm vs. Trailing Arm" debacle of 2010.

Garry

P.S. I like Larry too.

[Bill Bonow]

Garry,

I think you have the long "one-piece" side panels? The original were two separate panels and one could easily cut and modify the front section. Maybe you still have them from when it was Andy's car? The only pain is you'll need to relocate the battery and fire bottle.

I don't know if you like fiberglass work, but this could be a good beginers project if you have two sets of side panels. That way if it all goes wrong, you can always go back to what you used before.

[G.B.]

Not wishing to re-stir the pot, but from what I can remember beam tube fairings are prohibited in Britain. Although I cannot find a rule that specifically says that. It all depends upon how you interpret the no aerodynamic aids rule. The nose cone can only be the same width as the chassis behind the beam. Thus, imported cars, such as the D13, the Predator or the Kaimen, where allowed noses that covered the beam.

Also, from what I can remember, the scruntineers insisted on several changes to the Citation/Spyder, before letting it race. Note the rear roll hoop brace.

[Garry Sharp]

Mock up of new master cylinder and fire bottle relocation.

[hysteria]

This is an interesting video. The bodyworks with the raised nose (GAC and Storm FV) look good.

Any idea if these bodyworks are available here? How about the Citation bodywork?

Would be refreshing to see bodyworks like these installed on cars over here.

Garry,

Here is some video and photos of a Citation in the UK

Oulton Park in October 2010 running top 5 (orange car)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufm5AcT6I8c

Photos from Jeremy Clark winning the 2000 750MC UK FV Championship




The body really is not that much different from the original 84v. A longer nose and side pontoons removed.

One way to re-invent an old Citation.

P.S. Bolts are on their way

[gbmetcalf]

Mock up of new master cylinder and fire bottle relocation.

Gary:
That is the location I was thinking of locating my master cylinders too (out of harms way)!

Oh and the guy that helped design the Protoform body worked for Schweizer Aircraft. I know him, nice guy. So he did know a thing or two about aerodynamics. Just wanted to clear up a missunderstanding that might be out there.

[Matt King]

That's exactly how the master cylinders and fire bottle are mounted on my Citation XTC. Is a standard Citation different? I know the bottle is usually in the sidepod on a Citation, but where are the masters located?

[DaveB]

Depending on how old the chassis is they are mounted on the cross bar (behind the mock up).