Anyone using this motor oil?

[JohnPaul]

SynMax:
http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/store...cing_oils.html
It seems to be a very good motor oil but pretty expensive (at least the 0w). I was wondering if anyone here uses it and if it's worth the $$?? I heard it was good for a few HP, can that be possible?

[Hardingfv32]

You MEAN it sounds like a good story. Find some good research studies to backup the use of some of the materials they are talking about. Start with the SAE. Better milage for the auto industry is a very good motivator for understanding the oil issue.

"Getting what you pay for" is mostly a head game for the ignorant.

Brian

[RussMcB]

A thought: Buy a few gallons (whatever the quantity your car uses), take your car to a chassis dyno, get a baseline reading (with your current oil), change the oil and do another dyno run. Then you'll know, and you can post on internet forums that you'll share the dyno graph for $5.

If it turns out it is worth a few HP, contact the company and negotiate with them to sell your story. Or, keep it to yourself and have a competitive advantage.

Or, you can just buy Mobil 1 at Walmart and not worry about it.

[JohnPaul]

A thought: Buy a few gallons (whatever the quantity your car uses), take your car to a chassis dyno, get a baseline reading (with your current oil), change the oil and do another dyno run. Then you'll know, and you can post on internet forums that you'll share the dyno graph for $5.

If it turns out it is worth a few HP, contact the company and negotiate with them to sell your story. Or, keep it to yourself and have a competitive advantage.

Or, you can just buy Mobil 1 at Walmart and not worry about it.

Are you F**cking with me lol ? interestly enough, I got the lead on this product reading a a thread you started like 2-3 years ago about oil cooling issues you had. Someone brought up high velocity super light weight race oil. He said this was good for a few hp's, so I copied and pasted (is that a word): "high velocity super light weight racing oil" and that page came up. wise ass lol.

[Matt King]

Any power improvement is likely down to the properties of the oil's viscosity rather than any super-secret snake oil formulation unique to Company X, Y or Z. Drag racers have been using 0W oil for years because it does free up some HP by reducing frictional losses from moving the thicker oil through the engine. Likewise with synthetics vs. conventional. Years ago we did a test at Hot Rod magazine where we switched all the lubricants in a car from conventional to synthetic (engine, trans, rearend) oil of the same weights and tested it back to back on a chassis dyno. The result was something like an increase of 5-6RWHP. But there's no way I'm putting 0W oil in my racecar!

[Purple Frog]

JohnPaul,
Are you drinking from the same punch bowl that Wren is?

A little political correctness on your part will go a long way later.

[JohnPaul]

JohnPaul,
Are you drinking from the same punch bowl that Wren is?

A little political correctness on your part will go a long way later.

Not following you? what did I do?

[Purple Frog]

As the T-shirt said in Sturgis;

If you have to ask the question,
you won't understand the answer.

... nevermind...

[eospeed]

I used that oil about 6 years ago with a drag bike I used to work with. It seemed to work well with the clutch plates . No real power we tried a few oils on a bike with 400+whp . It let the plates live 14+passes going over 200mph

[Wren]

JohnPaul,
Are you drinking from the same punch bowl that Wren is?

A little political correctness on your part will go a long way later.

He is a beta tester for the new Wren Keith "how to win friends and influence people" program.

Russ' advice is well taken. Use something reasonably priced, available, and proven. 0w oil in a road race car is kind of scary.

[JohnPaul]

Oh, If you are talking about what I wrote to Russ, I wrote it joking. I was supposed to be light hearted. I guess I should have added the LOL's. That's the problem with writing stuff, it can be read differently from what you meant. Russ is good people. He was messing with me and I'm busting back. I can see how it can be misinterpreted, I'm going to edit it (slightly).

Wren, the description kind of leads you to believe it's good for short type runs: ie: qualifying, a race or 2 etc. but yes I agree 0w is scary.

[carnut169]

I'm not sure Russ was joking, but this has already been done so you can save yourself the time/ effort.

http://www.performanceoilnews.com/oi...nst_oils.shtml


Yes, 0 weight oils make more hp for the reasons Matt mentioned.

[JohnPaul]

It seems the 0w definitely produces a lot more HP. But is it safe to run for a session or a weekend or what? sure is much more expensive. But on another note did you read the review on the Uniglide at the bottom of the page? looks good. I wonder how that would work with a 0w oil? overkill that'll kill a motor?

[RussMcB]

<snip> ... But is it safe to run for a session or a weekend or what?

I remember reading a few years ago that Indy Car teams used 0 weight for their 4 laps/10 miles of qualifying, but wouldn't consider it for a race. But that was enough years ago that things could have changed since then.

I really think the best plan would be for you to try it. If you find out it doesn't work after, say, ten on-track sessions, you'll know to try it only nine sessions the next time.

That is the method Glenn Cooper used to discover a Formula Mazda engine is only good for 71 races before it needs to be rebuilt. Try to run 72 races and you're looking for trouble.

[Jon Jeffords]

The concern I have with any blend of oil available at Walmart, K-Mart, Target, etc is that the oil is intended for automobiles with catalytic converters. As such, the zinc and phosporous anti-wear additives have been significantly reduced, as these additives can be harmful to the precious metals inside a cat converter.

Generally speaking, if the oil has an API specification such as SL or SM on its label, you may want to think twice about using it in a racing application.

Good links on this topic:

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/72

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._got_zinc.aspx

[Matt King]

That's true of most of the grades, but Mobil 1's 15W50 specifically has higher levels of ZDDP that make it much better for use in a race engine. It's not quite as high as some of the pure race-use oils, but it's higher as most standard grades (about 1200ppm vs 800-900ppm).

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

[TimW]

The concern I have with any blend of oil available at Walmart, K-Mart, Target, etc is that the oil is intended for automobiles with catalytic converters. As such, the zinc and phosporous anti-wear additives have been significantly reduced, as these additives can be harmful to the precious metals inside a cat converter.

Generally speaking, if the oil has an API specification such as SL or SM on its label, you may want to think twice about using it in a racing application.

Good links on this topic:

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/72

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._got_zinc.aspx

Is this statement accurate for a modern production based race engine? Its my understanding that for a Kent, Pinto, even a Miata or 4AGE don't use modern street oils due to the reduction of the zddp and you must use a race or non street legal motor oil, but that the Fit, Zetec and the Duratec will do just fine with a quality synthetic off the pep boys shelf. Not sure if that applies to a 1k bike motor though.

Tim

[R. Pare]

I would stay away from oils that contain nano-particles. While there are many types of nano-particle additives out there, each with their own strengths, and some that I would stay away from, they all have one thing in common - if the particles are small enough (and they have to be to work correctly) they will atomically attach themselves (Van der Wall attraction) to the clutch surfaces, possibly causing slippage in the long term.

The diamond type nanoparticles are a good one to stay away from according to my research.

Eventually, you will see that the majority of oils available will have nano-particles in them (and in some parts of the world they are already available).

[Hardingfv32]

Thanks for highlighting nanoparticles in oil. Found this right of:

"Abstract
This study examined the tribological properties of two lubricating oils, an API-SF engine oil and a Base oil, with CuO, TiO2, and Nano-Diamond nanoparticles used as additives. The friction and wear experiments were performed using a reciprocating sliding tribotester. The experimental results show that nanoparticles, especially CuO, added to standard oils exhibit good friction-reduction and anti-wear properties. The addition of CuO nanoparticles in the API-SF engine oil and the Base oil decreased the friction coefficient by 18.4 and 5.8%, respectively, and reduced the worn scar depth by 16.7 and 78.8%, respectively, as compared to the standard oils without CuO nanoparticles. In addition, investigations were performed using TEM, OM, SEM, and EDX to interpret the possible mechanisms of anti-friction and anti-wear with nanoparticles."

From another article:

"4. Conclusions
(1) Cu nanoparticles as an oil additive have better antiwear
ability, friction-reduction properties and load-carrying
capacity than ZDDP."

Can we assume the manufactures with their drive for better milage will be on top of these changes? Could racers be holding on to an outdate tradition with their use of ZDDP?

Brian

[TimW]

Could racers be holding on to an outdate tradition with their use of ZDDP?

Could racers be holding on to outdated flat tappet engines? Sorry, that was just too easy.

[R. Pare]

One of the issues with ZDDP, besides that it can foul the converter, is that the layer it makes, while protecting from metal-to-metal contact, is in itself of elevated friction - ie - while it protects the metal, it actually wastes HP. Unfortuantely, not all nano-particles are created equal.

The proper nano-particles, on the other hand, give you both benefits - reduced metal-to-metal contact (and therefore reduced wear) as well as lowering the overall friction that wastes HP. Our own tests with a particular type of nano-particle showed on the average a 1.5% HP gain across the board in a wide variety of racing engines, motorcycle engines included (as well as up to a 15% increase in gas mileage in street cars). Currently there is testing going on by a couple of major manufacturers to see if these particular particles can replace the ZDDP entirely and not harm the converter. If that ends up being the case, expect to see this stuff used by just about every oil company out there withing the next year or two.

But I'd still be cautious about there use in an MC engine being used in these cars because of the possible clutch issue.

[martyb]

Could racers be holding on to outdated flat tappet engines? Sorry, that was just too easy.

It was also inaccurate. Have you considered that a modern DOHC motor that has cams acting directly onto buckets on the valves has exactly the same unidirectional wear pattern as a pushrod motor? Only DOHC motors that use rocker arms AND have rollers contacting the cam lobes get around this kind of wear.

Marty

[brownslane]

Sorry, but it appears I missed the first go-round on this.

My main business is building Jag motors and restoring Jaguars. (I know, I should have gotten a real job)...but I digress...

If you do not use a ZDDP additive or oil that does have ZDDP in it, you will be looking for a new motor. Same deal with Healey motors. Same deal with the 2.0L Hart 420 we use in the Chevron....

Reader's digest version: I did a LOT of investigation a couple of years ago and found a source of ZDDP...the same supplier that exclusively is used by Shell worldwide.

It is imported into the "States in bulk, rebottled in Georgia where the EPA (apparently) don't care, and is sold all over. The product is called "ZDDPlus". I sell it for $10 a bottle, good for 5 quarts of oil.

If you use Mobil 1 motorcycle oil, you don't need it; the ZDDP is already IN motorcycle oil!

Regards,

[glenn cooper]

Sorry, but it appears I missed the first go-round on this.

My main business is building Jag motors and restoring Jaguars. (I know, I should have gotten a real job)...but I digress...

If you do not use a ZDDP additive or oil that does have ZDDP in it, you will be looking for a new motor. Same deal with Healey motors. Same deal with the 2.0L Hart 420 we use in the Chevron....

Reader's digest version: I did a LOT of investigation a couple of years ago and found a source of ZDDP...the same supplier that exclusively is used by Shell worldwide.

It is imported into the "States in bulk, rebottled in Georgia where the EPA (apparently) don't care, and is sold all over. The product is called "ZDDPlus". I sell it for $10 a bottle, good for 5 quarts of oil.

If you use Mobil 1 motorcycle oil, you don't need it; the ZDDP is already IN motorcycle oil!

Regards,

Tom, I'm not so sure that this is the case anymore. As more and more bikes come equipped from the factory with catalytic converters, the ZDDP had to come out of the oil specified for that make / model.
I remember years ago when in the bike biz the BMW's were just starting to come over w/ cats and the rep mentioning something to us in rergard to this.

PS Is that Soviet Georgia where the EPA looks the other way?!!!

[Brian]

Another simple solution is to use diesel oil. Rotella, Delo, etc with CJ4 rating has 1100 plus of ZDDP. As noted required in engines with rotating "flat" tappets, not as required in sliding cam follower engines. Tappets, as everyone with a odd memory for trivia recalls, are not flat but are ground on a radius, while the cam lobe is ground on a flat taper. The result is incredible point loading and the tappet spins around. I have no idea if all bucket tappet engines are the same. Obviously roller tappets were invented in part to eliminate this point load.

Dema at Elgin Cams told me to use Rotella or Delo 400 with his flat tappet cams.

Brian

[brownslane]

Brian, the problem with Rotella is that, while it does have some ZDDP (about 500 ppm), it does not have the recommended 1,500 ppm. But the bigger problem is that Rotella and any other diesel oil is the extremely high amount of detergents. The level of detergents is actually damaging to gas engines.

Whole lot better is to use proper motor oil, designed for gas engines in the correct viscosity, then add the ZDDP if it is not in the oil.

You could break in flat tappet engines in lard.....but would you?

For the bike engined guys, you should not use anything but motorcycle oil. It is formulated specifically for bike needs; things like cooling and cleaning clutch materials. Auto oil will not do this. Also, motorcycle oil does have the 1500 ppm, so it is protecting us FB and DSR guys.

My personal preference has been to use Mobil1. Both in the bikes and cars. All I do is add one bottle of ZDDPlus with each oil change (in the cars). I also break in my Jag motors with GM's EOS as the assembly lube and two bottles of ZDDPlus (remember, Jags use 11 litres of oil.

If you were to use Rotella in one of my motors, I could tell, and I would not honor any warranty work. FWIW

By the way, Brian....are ya keeping warm north of the tree line?



Tom