steering wheel size? does it make a difference?

[JohnPaul]

[FONT=Calibri]I never thought of it prior to this past weekend at PBIR.[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]PBIR has 2 pretty long decreasing radius turns that really had my arms twisted up good. I felt very uncomfortable and it really affected the way I drove. I’m used to M/C’s so I’m not sure but call me crazy when I say that the size of my steering wheel had a lot to do with it. I have a very small (not sure of the diameter) MoMo with the cut top and flat bottom. It felt like it was just tiny and I had the steering wheel ALMOST to the stop for way too long (in these specific turns) with my arms twisted in a knot. I think I didn’t felt this prior was because I was only on 2 other tracks (Homestead and Sebring short course) and neither have decreasing radius turns, the steering wheel felt good at those 2 tracks because there wasn’t too much steering wheel movement. I was wondering if this is typical and if I people switch out different size steering wheels for different track configurations? I ask because I would think that a larger steering wheel would be much much better at PBIR but maybe not so great at other tracks with faster turns where maybe you wouldn’t want that much sensitivity (I don’t know if that is the right way to describe it) in the steering. Anyway just a thought I throw this out there and see if I’m crazy. I figure I’ll get a lot of opinions on this topic here. I’m pretty sure I’m going to get a larger wheel at least for PBIR, since it’s one of my home tracks and will be there often. Any suggestion on what size/style/brand I should get?[/FONT]

[Purple Frog]

Don't know your configuration.

It could be that what you need:

1. is a faster rack.
2. a steering wheel with a top. Thinking back, there may be some courses where I start the turn by sub-conciously first grabbing the top of the wheel.
3. the steering wheel placed farther forward, so you don't get "bound up". In our tight cockpits we usually can't drive like NASCAR with our arms bent a lot.

Looking at Road Atlanta film, where I shift 21 times per lap, a lot of steering is done one handed.

[jim morgan]

JP
We need to talk. If you have the wheel at mechanical stop and there is still turn left? That pig needs to be loosened up, instead of full lock you need to be counter steering a drift. Time for James Lee 101, make the car so loose you can barely drive, keep it that way until you get faster, once you improve make it looser.

[Nardi]

It sounds like massive understeer to me.

[JohnPaul]

Don't know your configuration.

It could be that what you need:

1. is a faster rack.
2. a steering wheel with a top. Thinking back, there may be some courses where I start the turn by sub-conciously first grabbing the top of the wheel.
3. the steering wheel placed farther forward, so you don't get "bound up". In our tight cockpits we usually can't drive like NASCAR with our arms bent a lot.

Looking at Road Atlanta film, where I shift 21 times per lap, a lot of steering is done one handed.

what is a faster rack? I was also think I needed a steering wheel with a top.

JP
We need to talk. If you have the wheel at mechanical stop and there is still turn left? That pig needs to be loosened up, instead of full lock you need to be counter steering a drift. Time for James Lee 101, make the car so loose you can barely drive, keep it that way until you get faster, once you improve make it looser.

my mistake in describing, not really all the way to the stop but very close. I had to stiffen the rear because of massive understeer and loosen up the front.

It sounds like massive understeer to me.

Massive is an understatement.

[glenn cooper]

to have a fresh set of skins on that thing.
I saw your post on heat cycles: 4 or 5 and then pretty much useless, never started a race on anything more than 1 cycle.
Perhaps the massivo understeer is rubba related?

[Purple Frog]

Too early apex.

[formulasuper]

"what is a faster rack?"
It's a rack that has fewer turns lock to lock.

[Rick Ross]

You need some decent tires. Do not waste your time or money on anything until you put a reasonable set of tires on the car.

[RussMcB]

JP, the problem is definitely the steering wheel. Get a new one and I'd like dibs on your cut top Momo. :-).

[JohnPaul]

to have a fresh set of skins on that thing.
I saw your post on heat cycles: 4 or 5 and then pretty much useless, never started a race on anything more than 1 cycle.
Perhaps the massivo understeer is rubba related?

without a doubt and although I was running pretty decent times I know that the tires were shot and was the main reason for understeer (along with not having the setup correct and as purple frog added: too early an apex). I just wanted to experiment and use what I had since it was a 2 session day and I wasn't sure when I'd be racing again.

Too early apex.

I think i was apexing a little too early. I only did the morning combined practice/qualifying and couldnt' get a good feel of the tracks line until halfway through the race.

You need some decent tires. Do not waste your time or money on anything until you put a reasonable set of tires on the car.

I'll have new tires at the next PBIR weekend in 2 weeks so I'll get a better feel.

JP, the problem is definitely the steering wheel. Get a new one and I'd like dibs on your cut top Momo. :-).

thanks I can always count on your advice

But I still felt like the steering wheel was tiny and I was completely twisted and uncomfortable. what are the down sides to going with a slightly large wheel (if there is a downside)?

[RussMcB]

Maybe touch base with other DP-04 owners and ask them how many turns lock-to-lock they have, just to confirm you have a ratio that others are using without issues.

Obviously, I was joking about the wheel. I'd think a smaller one would be desireable to give more cockpit room and faster steering. I really like the open top design. I like how I can get more leverage by hooking my thumb over the top. It makes viewing the dash easier, too. My current car does not have a cut top and I'm seriously thinking about walking it over to my the band saw (unless I can get a good deal on yours! :-).

[RobLav]

Before deciding on the steering wheel size, get the car to handle correctly (raise the rear ride height - a lot too if you are on the steering stops) first, then get new(er) tires, then learn the racing line.

I used a steering wheel on the Citation that is one size smaller than the normal Momo and don't like it at all. The connection between left arm and brain is lacking with this one. So fix some other things before deciding on the steering wheel.

[JakeL]

To throw some specific numbers out there, the 270mm chop-top MoMo is quite common, followed by the 250mm.

I don't know that there's a downside to a slightly larger wheel so long as your hands will fit.

At least in the Stohr, I never go beyond about 90* of steering lock while on track, and even that is only in a tiny little 1st gear, decreasing radius turn at HPR.

I think it tops out around 180* of rotation in either direction.

-Jake

[mousecatcher]

But I still felt like the steering wheel was tiny and I was completely twisted and uncomfortable. what are the down sides to going with a slightly large wheel (if there is a downside)?

Doesn't sound like the steering wheel is the problem in your case ... like PEBKAC -> PEBSAS (Problem Exists Between Steering wheel And Seat)

No seriously though, there is the obvious thing that a bigger wheel means less applied torque but more motion to turn. Also you can't go too big because you'll get a binding problem between your hand and thigh for 75-90° turns of the wheel. I personally like the smallest wheel possible, which also happens to be the biggest wheel possible for my car, due to my hand contacting my thigh.

The less torque to turn also means less feedback, ie you have to be more sensitive to steering force, and understeer does feed back into the wheel -- even if you don't realize it this is a signal to your brain to adjust your line. That doesn't mean a different size steering wheel is better or worse, just that there's more going on than just the ergonomic aspect.

Like someone else said, I'd look at getting farther from the wheel, either with a seat adjustment or steering shaft adjustment.

[JohnPaul]

Doesn't sound like the steering wheel is the problem in your case ... like PEBKAC -> PEBSAS (Problem Exists Between Steering wheel And Seat)

and my wife says all my problems exist between my ears!
My thinking is that a larger wheel would mean less steering input so I don't have to turn the steering wheel as far and not feel like I'm playing twister in some of these turns.
I'm not looking to use the steering wheel off my pickup truck, I'm talking slightly larger and even possibly switching them (larger and smaller) at different tracks. Obviously I need track and seat time to make the real difference but this steering thing was so obviously annoying to me that I had to ask.

[Mike B]

My thinking is that a larger wheel would mean less steering input so I don't have to turn the steering wheel as far

The diameter of the wheel won't change how far you have to turn the steering wheel. If you're turning it 90 degrees with a 250mm wheel, you'll still be turning it 90 degrees with a 270mm wheel, for the same resultant tire movement. The only difference is that your hands will be further apart and you'll have more leverage (and less feel, as mousecatcher suggested.)

For every steering motion, your hands will be moving more with a larger wheel.

[mousecatcher]

and my wife says all my problems exist between my ears!
My thinking is that a larger wheel would mean less steering input so I don't have to turn the steering wheel as far and not feel like I'm playing twister in some of these turns.

err no the size of the steering wheel won't change that. You'd need to either change your uprights or change the steering rack. Also I assume you're not using a spool?

[mousecatcher]

Looking at Road Atlanta film, where I shift 21 times per lap, a lot of steering is done one handed.

Rodeo style? :cowboy icon

[Herman Pahls]

Russ
I took a $40. wheel to the bandsaw and love the results.
I like the leverage available with thumbs on top and open view to the dash.
Please send molded rubber caps so the band saw cut doesn't look so budjet.
I tried the dash on the wheel and too low for me.

John Paul
My 275mm wheel is bigger in dia. than most and is closer to the shifter than ideal.
Would not be an issue with paddles except possibly thigh clearance.
Herman

[RussMcB]

Russ
I took a $40. wheel to the bandsaw and love the results.
I like the leverage available with thumbs on top and open view to the dash.
Please send molded rubber caps so the band saw cut doesn't look so budget.

Glad to hear that it worked well for you. My tentative plan is to dip the two cut ends into a can of that stuff made for tool handles (http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip).

I tried the dash on the wheel and too low for me.

Same here.

[JohnPaul]

Glad to hear that it worked well for you. My tentative plan is to dip the two cut ends into a can of that stuff made for tool handles (http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip).

Same here.

I think you should use those bicycle handlebar ends with the streamers in red white and blue. You'd be the coolest driving down the track with your streamers, you'd probably start a new trend

[Charles Warner]

Glad to hear that it worked well for you. My tentative plan is to dip the two cut ends into a can of that stuff made for tool handles.

Russ,

Probably will not adhere to the leather covering, either felt type or smooth leather. Basic black racer's tape worked well for me. Replace every so often when needed. Diaseo's Ugli Grip stuff might work.

[formulasuper]

err no the size of the steering wheel won't change that. You'd need to either change your uprights or change the steering rack. Also I assume you're not using a spool?

Hey, a spool is cool! You've just got to gas it to kick the rear out in the tight corners.
The thing about the open top steering wheels is you've got to be careful about keeping your hands clear when anything that can cause the wheel to spin rapidly happens, such as contact with another car or a stationary object. I've "heard" a sprang wrist may be the result.