Steven, this happened during my second ever race in the SCCA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0cg88alAY
see if you can count the number of mistakes
Steven, this happened during my second ever race in the SCCA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0cg88alAY
see if you can count the number of mistakes
I will jump in and make a few observations and my intention is not to stereotype younger drivers, but we have raised a group of drivers with no fear (pun intentional). And by younger I mean in years of racing, not necessarily calendar years. Anyone who has grown up on in car TV footage and video games, thinks he is Lewis Hamilton or Dale Earnhardt Sr, or Paul Tracy etc.
There is a theory that by shooting baskets in your head, you improve your basketball skills. And what driver among us has not run thousands of laps in our heads, trying for that perfect lap? What do we do about drivers who have grown up watching pros do amazing passes, great car saves etc? What happens when the driver has honed hs skills on a video game, where if I first you don't succeed, you just hit "Start Over" and try the START again. Maybe if every time you crashed in a video game, you had to wait 2 weeks to race again and your bank account was knocked down a few grand, would it really be "like real racing".
I think that is the reason behind the IT crashes. Go look at any video of Skip Barber Racing School races - the formula cars and the Spec Miatas and you will see this "new reality" at work.
is this good driving or an accident waiting to happen?
*** Correct link *** (also in a post below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-TJqAvGYRo
Look at this and tell me if this start would be allowed a an SCCA race:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwz0DmQM1Y
Not picking on these specific drivers but with the modern mentality in general.
ChrisZ
Last edited by FVRacer21; 10.21.10 at 6:34 PM. Reason: Link did not work
That is a pretty wide brush you're using there. Sounds like a bit of ignorance mixed with some elitism.Originally Posted by Dennis Valet
Looking big picture, the requirements to maintain a National or Regional license are so minimal that the experience level isn't really much different one to another. Not a whole lot of difference in cost between a National FV, a really good CF and a mediocre ITS car, nevermind a front running ITS car, either.
Not sure. The link itself and the text are two different videos. I can't play the teamjuicy one for some reason. The youtube one seems fine to me.
Absolutely. I've seen similar. In general they are only watching the front few rows.Look at this and tell me if this start would be allowed a an SCCA race:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvwz0DmQM1Y
Couldn't get this video to play. The link just below it is a clinic on how to deal with slower traffic and a fun ride. I love the guy who uses his turn signal.
http://www.skippyforums.com/forums/l...kid=193&page=1
please educate a newbie, what's going on with that start??
Limerock Start
The guy starting from the back has (ab)used the sytem, a weak one at that I might add.
Perhaps in his mind he is doing nothing wrong, thinking that as long as he doesn't pass any cars before the green comes out, he's doing nothing wrong.
It took me awhile, only because the cars are so slow to accelerate to speed, but he's going by folks with a full head of steam, gained by hanging back/lollygagging, and evidently has not started to pass anyone prior to the green.
This type thing got so bad at June Sprints years ago that they started to have start judges at the last 3 or 4 corners.
Totally weak move...
MANY live televised jr level pro race have full-on ragged starts many times because all the drivers know that no matter how ragged it is - the green flag will fly, no wave off or "go around" one more time and try it again. The cameras are rolling and the dollars are flying, ain't no stopping now!
Is there no GCR provision in regard to the gap between cars?The guy starting from the back has (ab)used the sytem, a weak one at that I might add.
Perhaps in his mind he is doing nothing wrong, thinking that as long as he doesn't pass any cars before the green comes out, he's doing nothing wrong.
It took me awhile, only because the cars are so slow to accelerate to speed, but he's going by folks with a full head of steam, gained by hanging back/lollygagging, and evidently has not started to pass anyone prior to the green.
This type thing got so bad at June Sprints years ago that they started to have start judges at the last 3 or 4 corners.
Totally weak move...
MANY live televised jr level pro race have full-on ragged starts many times because all the drivers know that no matter how ragged it is - the green flag will fly, no wave off or "go around" one more time and try it again. The cameras are rolling and the dollars are flying, ain't no stopping now!
I'm just posting from my experience in the last few years here in the North East. I don't think it's just a coincidence that the IT and SM drivers tend to have a higher frequency of contact and major accidents. The amount of damage at limerock this year during the restricted regional and pro-it was pretty staggering. Sure having a full track didn't help, but around here you can tell the difference between national and regional racing quite easily.
It is pretty easy to tell the good from the bad. If I'm in the car the bad ones are the ones where I'm like WTF?! and or making negative gestures to. The good drivers are the ones I'm getting crushed by and the ones I lap with no problem and give them a wave.
I fully trust most of the guys I run with (besides the one who hit me) Most of the incidents that I've seen in IT and SM is because of the close racing, not b/c a moron. It depends on region too.
Steven
Last edited by SMac35; 10.21.10 at 11:11 AM.
SCCA WDCR
Crew # 92 1986 Reynard SF2000
Driver:# 92 1989 ITA Honda Civic Si
There is. GCR 6.5.1 includes (emphasis added):
G. The Starter will start the race by suddenly and continuously wavingSo dropping back to take a run can be a violation of 6.5.1.G.
the green flag until all cars have passed the start line if the field is:
1. at a constant slow speed;
2. well bunched and in line; and
3. close enough to the Starter that the majority of the drivers can
see the flag.
Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when
the green flag is displayed.
H. The Starter will abort the start by displaying no flag and shaking
his head in the negative if the field is not in good order, or if some
drivers have improved their positions by moving out of line or by
passing prior to the waving of the green flag. This advises the
drivers to proceed on another pace lap. Drivers raise one hand to
confirm that the start is aborted. (Except as provided in 6.5.2.D.)
Interestingly, the GCR apparently requires ("will") the Starter to wave off a poorly-formed pack. In practice, this does not always happen, for a couple of reasons. First, depending on the topology (Road America comes to mind), the Starter may not have a good view of the pack until it is very close.
Second, waving off a start, particularly for a large field, carries its own set of risks. Starters exercise some judgment in deciding whether to wave off a particular start.
As I mentioned in an earlier posting, any participant can protest another for jumping the start.
Also, in principle, one could protest the Starter for not waving off a poorly-formed pack. I am not sure whether such a protest would prosper, but it would be a very interesting exercise.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
I'm not saying it's mostly morons, I just said it just seems to have a higher frequency and proportion than the other classes. Only takes a few bad eggs to spoil the bunch. Maybe my perception is wrong, but that's what I've observed.
Some series throw the green as long as the front row is aligned. Allows for more green flag racing while on the clock, and less dangers of mid-pack disaster when some bonehead decides to check up abruptly when the green isn't thrown. People who weren't properly aligned or jumped the start are greeted with a black flag for a stop and go next time around.
Standing starts. The only way to go. Guess that's a whole new thread though!
This was just the answer I was looking for! This is the main reason for this question. Close racing happens, so why is it that when people have close races and one driver is aggressive why do we say negative things about them? It's racing.. Isn't that the nature of the sport?
Yeah I understand stupid things happen, but if we tip toe around and race like "girls" then why race?
Meg
Meg,
I understand your point, but there are "written and unwritten" rules of
the track/road and if individual racers can't follow them, they need to
be exposed for who they are and told to find another hobby if they
can't get it together. Like Steve McQueen said in the movie "LeMans",
"Racing is a blood sport" and I don't want to be a casualty as a result
of a bad drivers inability to properly lead, follow or get out of the way!
Ciao'
Mark
Megan, I understand what you are saying and to a certain extent I would agree if we were talking about professional racing, but at the club level there is no need for 99% of the contact that takes place out on the track. Aggressive driving is fine, it has its place, but nothing drives me crazier than aggressive driving that will assuredly result in contact and the driver claiming "that's just close racing" when in fact the contact could have been avoided.
Examples of the wrong kind of "aggressive" driving: sticking your nose in when there is no chance of a pass being made; chopping down on someone inside you because "its your corner; swerving to block someone who is faster and is coming past you; racing side by side with someone half way through the corner and then driving out to the apex; at the start of a race trying to make up positions by diving to the apex under the pack ahead as it turns in.
For the most part you see this type of driving in people who have the wrong attitude about club racing in the first place. They have to win, at all costs, and cant stand to be passed by anyone much less lose to them.
I have taught my kids from the time they were 10 years old and kart racing to avoid contact at all costs and that is the way I drove too when I raced. If it means you have to give up a spot or two, so be it, but keep yourself and your car in one piece. Unfortunately too many people, either out of lack of talent, too big an ego or simple disregard for health and safety (and the cost of crashing) choose to race differently. And I do agree that you will see this type of driving more frequently in the sedan classes but we have seen our share of it in FF as well.
Take care.
Tom
Really
Think about it, Meg. If you're racing with someone who you have seen before, and know him to be predictable, maybe it's worth putting your nose inside on a turn. After all, he's supposed to leave racing room. The best drivers I've seen will leave the required "racing room," and not force you off the track.
On the other hand, if it's someone who you don't know, or who you know will push you off rather than give you the required room, is that just "aggressive" driving--or is it a driver who lacks skill but is willing to risk damage and injury to you and himself?
Racin' ain't rubbin'! It ain't blockin' either. If you're good, you'll earn the pass. You won't punt, push or scrape...or bump-draft. We've got far too many drivers watching F1 or NASCAR who think they are doing the right thing when they block or bump.
Larry Oliver
Larry Oliver
control
I would add that a driver who has shown that they have no control over their vehicle is a dangerous driver. I'm not saying you should have Formula 1 caliber car control, but you must be able to control the car in a suffucient manner so as to not crash and take out your competitors on a regular basis. This should also include drivers who drive above their abilities (to their perceived abilities instead of their actual abilities). It's okay to "run out of talent" so to speak on occasion, but to regularly lose control and end a competitors day is dangerous in my mind. Others may feel different but that's how I see it.
-Bill Valet
NeDiv Swift DB-6 #83
[FONT=Verdana]If you can follow the following I congratulate you:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I've been racing for 15 years now. First karts, them Spec Kamikaze and now FF, and I have to say the worst (dangerous) drivers were found in the Spec Miata ranks.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]In my opinion, a dangerous driver can be defined as either overly aggressive or incoherently out-of-control.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]The former comes in the form of the driver who doesn't care if they make it to work Monday morning. You'd think I would have experienced many of these in my pre-18 days of karting, but Miata drivers seem to think that they are going to win the lottery if they win a regional and will do anything to achieve that aim. I define an over-aggressive dangerous driver as someone who will use their car as a blocking mechanism, a shoving mechanism or battling ram. My first national in '06 was at Blackhawk Farms in the wet, and had a driver punt me in T1, where I sat for a lap until I rocked myself out of the grass. I'm usually a calm character, but I came in and let him know where he could drive his flying turtle...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]There are times where you have to calculate how far you want to push one of these individuals. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire and see to it that you are (temporarily) as sick as they are in order to earn some respect on the track to make a pass. Hopefully you can get by them and run away. If not, there is probably going to be contact and you deserved what you got just as much as the driver you were pretending to be as dumb as.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]This kind of individual usually knows how to drive quickly, but has sadly used some of the focus that could go towards making them use their talents to the nth degree and sidetracked into the dark world of being a known on-track issue for their intentional abuse and/or disregard for others and their finely-tuned equipment. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]The other side comes to those who don't have the understanding of the sport to actually be on the circuit in the first place. These drivers are generally found at the back (no offense to myself or any of the other back markers out there who actually know what they are doing when it comes to not being a concern), and are in the way of everyone. Ignoring flags, not checking their mirrors and generally being consistently inconsistent are the trends...which tend to lead to destruction. In karting I actually got yelled at by a driver who I lapped for startling him (lapping him) before the end of a race once, even though he got the blue flag twice.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I keep a dossier of everyone I race with, and have that knowledge in my head at all times when I'm at the track. Everyone has a style to their own. This knowledge in-itself can help you avoid becoming one of the two styles of dangerous drivers mentioned.
[FONT=Verdana]Respectfully Yours,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Jacques N. Dresang[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]UMW [/FONT]
Jacques N. Dresang
Kettle Moraine Preservation & Restoration
1977 All American Racers Eagle DGF #005
1972 Elden Mk10B AM73-49 - #140/1
Nice. You don't have a clue about licensing, do you? Or budgets. Or how many regional IT racers have gone on to other things. (Surely you've heard of Eric Curran over the years??)
IT is a regional class, that is true. And we don't want it to be national. Why? Look at the 20k motors you guys have to deal with and you'll have your answer. But that doesn't always mean it's low budget either. At the IT Fest last year, we dropped about 5k before the weekend was over. Maybe that's chump change to you, but we felt it in the wallet.
Most racers in IT ARE nationally licensed. Which means they can instruct, or enter nationals in a national class if desired. Many IT cars CAN double dip in national classes too.
IT and SM are also heavily subscribed. (You should know that, Lord knows there's been enough threads on the open wheel forums complaining about declining numbers in open wheel cars and climbing numbers in fendered ones)
More cars=more people=more chances for incidents.
Steven speaks the truth.
Sure comes across that way.
See above regarding heavily subscribed groups.
I will say this: it is true that SM has been a thorn in the sides of a lot of folks for various reasons. There ARE some people who are coming in without a clue about sportmanship, racecraft,or even appearing to be part of the same club. But....some of the best, smoothest, most competitive and sportsmenlike racers have been in the class as well. More people=more variants.
And I HAVE ALSO witnessed boneheaded driving in cars without fenders....and have read many a thread complaining about the same. On here, and other forums.
But I would NEVER make the statement that it's because the group in general is subpar.
Lighten up
In no circumstances did Dennis use the word "all" in his statements, only the word "some". There are always exceptions. He was certainly not trying to insult anyone.
Also, Dennis is a regional, and pro-it, driver. He does not have a national license.
-Bill Valet
Last edited by Bill Valet; 10.21.10 at 4:59 PM.
NeDiv Swift DB-6 #83
All valid points
Everyone has given me great answers. Mentioned in a previous post was "written and unwritten rules". I agree. A lot of those rules are common sense. What I meant in my last post was, racing is a sport all about pushing the limit. I'm not saying that every race should be driven like a it's the last one and the world is going to end if you lose. I'm saying I like racing with people. I like racing close with someone who is going to make me work my @$$ off to pass them and beat them. But that's beside the point.
I'm mainly saying that we turn names into verbs, "Wilcoxed", "Schwietzed" and the most recent "Sauced". And I know that mistakes happen and being over aggressive happens to every driver. Now since it happens to everyone at least once, wouldn't we all have been dangerous at one point?
Or were those occurances our get out of jail free cards?
I'm guilty of doing wanting to be out in front, and I've spun on cold tires. I've hit people because when I hit the brakes, it upset the car and kicking the back end out. I've also always apologized to the person and explained myself and they've always been understanding about it.
My point is that mistakes are made. You learn or you don't. And if you learn from that, and you only make the mistake every so often (let's say once every 3 seasons) are you still this idiot driver?
Or is that just a mistake?
Thanks,
Meg
Well I suppose this thread has something to do with the accident at turn 5 at the Runoffs this year.I personally thought originally there were three factors for the incident,some of which may have already been mentioned..First racing room is always an issue and I personally try to leave room whenever overtaking or any other time.I made an error in judgement because that racing room changed very quickly.I should have anticipated that and I did not.Secondly I did not expect the rear brakes to lock up the way they did.I am glad I found the issue,the right rear rotor had broken between the alloy hat and the mouunting to the rotor area.I am sure that did not help.Finally while turning back to the left as the racing room changed that also was a factor helping the rears lock up.Many of the competitors in the race have raced with me for years and others have not.I am not inexperienced and rarely make this kind of mistake.It happened, I cannot change it and have the experience to move forward from it hoping for better results next time.I know the angst of Reid Hazelton because of this incident and have apologized to him and any others who were maleffected.I am sure his frustration from the pole to 8th by turn 5 where we got together was his worst scenario.I hope both of us have better luck next year.Racing at the Runoffs is a crap shoot at best.I have started from the pole and had a flat tire while leading.I have been taken out in the first corner.The point is Sh--t happens and it will always be that way.
"Wilcoxed" is a new one to me. Which Wilcox are we talking about?
I just made that name up to protect the innocent. Although Mr. Schweitz seems to have subsequently been thrown under the bus.
I thought at first Wilcox was a hypothetical name, but then I wasn't sure. And I have known Schwietz for roughly 20 years and consider him one of my closest friends, but even I will say that he threw himself under that bus.
Josh, BTW, Tom wasnt one of the two that I was talking about in my original post whose names had been turned into verbs. Although if I'm being honest only because I had forgotten about
him.
Actually we have never personally been Schweitzed. Expected to be but he was always the perfect gentleman on the track around Bill.
Take care.
Tom
Acknowledging your mistakes and apologizing for them goes a long, long way to keep you out of idiot driver status....unless you are making he same mistakes and same apologies race after race.
Another thing to consider
Some drivers in our club are under the impression that they are "perfect". Meaning that they never make a mistake. However, is it really possible to be the perfect driver? NO.
Does anyone else think that the "perfect drivers" of the club are more of a risk than the rookies?
Is it safe for the rest of us, if a faster driver to not realize that he/she is capable of a mistake?
I think I worry more about this person than the rookie who is putting around at the back with the slower classes.
Megan
Understood. I have never known him to go hitting people right and left on purpose, but there have been a few times when I felt it was his fault. I can also think of many times that he could have punted someone to win and did not. In the end, however, any negative reputation Schwietz has earned is his own responsibility. Though I would have to wonder how reckless could he be when we have only replaced one corner in 8 years.Josh, BTW, Tom wasnt one of the two that I was talking about in my original post whose names had been turned into verbs. Although if I'm being honest only because I had forgotten about
him.
Actually we have never personally been Schweitzed. Expected to be but he was always the perfect gentleman on the track around Bill.
Take care.
Tom
I don't know what happened to the link, but this is what I wanted people to look at about 20 posts ago....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-TJqAvGYRo
ChrisZ
No one is perfect. Mistakes happen, and that's okay. But when mistakes are made continuously that directly impact other competitors, then it becomes not okay.
-Bill Valet
NeDiv Swift DB-6 #83
The deliberate pass through the grass was out of control! These guys, actually kids seem like they can drive but are pretty aggressive.
OK, wow that move around 1:39 is stupid. I don't know of any rules that allow that. In Skip Barber, that's a 4-off for which it is mandatory to do a drive-through.
If one tire is still on the racing surface it isn't 4-off. Not that the move is any less risky, just that it isn't illegal.
Out here we don't have much grass around our tracks. Dropping wheels usually results in kicking up all kinds of crap for your competitors to drive through....or rocks to the windshield of the following car. Legal or not, I find purposeful use of this tactic poor sportsmanship at best. The only good to come out of it (from the following cars' perspective) is the knowledge that you are in your competitors' head and they are resorting to such tactics. Usually makes them easier to rattle and pass.
Yes that is wreckless!
For any of you who haven't run Mosport, that trip across the grass is at the quickest part of the lap. Usually, one wheel off means a trip into the wall (concrete both sides) at over 100mph for you and everone around you. I blew an engine there and pulled off at what felt like jogging pace, just about lost all my fillings. The "slower" driver did what he should to stay out of the way and yet he was put at risk of a major incident. Not clever at all. As a previous thread outlined "no respect".
Tony
Last edited by flat broke; 10.22.10 at 9:25 AM.
I really don't know enough to speak intellegently about the SM guys (except that they are super cool dudes in the pits) but I can tell you something really interesting and funny: this past weekend at Sebring my nephews (12-10-7 years old) only wanted to stand down by the haripin to watch the Miatas because according to them "these guys really bang each other up".....take that anyway you like but I thought it was funny.
The driver in that skippy vid is Fabio Orsolon and he is one of the top drivers in the F2k Championship Series. He had a bad round in race 2 at Atlanta( and he did apologize) but other then that is a good clean aggressive racer. Quite happy to race against him.
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Runoffs 1 Gold 3 Silver 3 bronze, 8 Divisional , 6 Regional Champs , 3x Drivers of the year awards
Stan (sorry if that's not your name, I'm just assuming from your username), I'm not knocking IT racing. I know a lot of people that compete exclusively in IT because they love it - I race in the Pro-IT series here in the northeast where there are a number of exceptional drivers and exceptionally prepared cars. There are IT cars in that series that cost more than a nationally competitive Formula Ford. For instance, just recently Flatout-motorsports prepared a gorgeous Honda S2000 ITR car. That being said, I don't think it's unfair for me to say that most IT racers are "budget" compared to national racers, especially compared to most of the formula classes, which of course is the focus of this site. I suppose it's unfair to say that just because someone's budget is lower that they don't take racing as seriously or hone their craft as meticulously as the higher budget racers, so I retract that statement. However, I don't think it's out of line to say that someone is going to be less careful with their VW Rabbit than they would be if they were driving a Swift 014a.
Yes, obviously if there are more cars racing there will be a higher amount of boneheads, boneheads exist in every class. Here's the distinction I was trying to make: if you read the SM/IT boards, you will see a lot of people defending actions that would be chastised on this board. From reading the boards and observing the races, you get the impression that the standard for bonehead driving is different in fendered classes. Things that would get someone killed in an open wheel car are brushed off as racing incidents on the SM board. Read the MARSS series threads and the popular sentiment is that the series has a reputation for "hard" racing, aka body contact all over the track.
Now, SM and IT do have great drivers, and it's a shame that they are immediately lumped into the group of bonehead drivers simply because of the class they drive in, I agree, but it's reality.
These videos are from the same weekend at Lime Rock, which was a national race with some regional support. Instead of being concerned about the driving, jokes were made. Yes some people were upset with the carnage of the weekend, but for the most part those people were the ones who ended up with wrecked cars. I know if I was bump drafting someone into a braking zone, I wouldn't be rushing to share that move with the rest of the world.
http://vimeo.com/11916276
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkxSOaIsP9s
and the video from above, just another angle of the start http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0cg88alAY
Overall, in one day of racing there was 15 flat bed calls in the regional and pro it groups. That's unacceptable. I'm not saying it's the norm for all the regional and IT races, because it's not - but it's weekends like that which contribute to my perception.
A story I heard from that weekend - someone new to racing and visiting the track was asking a national racer crew member what the difference between national and regional racing was...at that very moment the regional race had the front straight accident and the crew member said "that's the difference".
Truthful? Somewhat.
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