Asking to ask: Dangerous Drivers

[sauce_racer]

So I've got a question for every driver on Apexspeed.

What classifies a driver as dangerous?

How many mistakes does it take to be deemed a wreckless driver who will either hurt or paralyze someone down the line?

Easy question, I know. But I wanted the opinion of the racing world. Is it one mistake? Or is it the magnitude of the mistake? Is it hurting someonE? What is the real definition of a dangerous driver?

I've been racing for ten years now, and I feel I have a decent definition. But what do other drivers see?

Another question to consider, is how to handle this driver?

Any takers?

Thanks,
Meg

[John Nesbitt]

So I've got a question for every driver on Apexspeed.

What classifies a driver as dangerous?

How many mistakes does it take to be deemed a wreckless driver who will either hurt or paralyze someone down the line?

Easy question, I know. But I wanted the opinion of the racing world. Is it one mistake? Or is it the magnitude of the mistake? Is it hurting someonE? What is the real definition of a dangerous driver?

I've been racing for ten years now, and I feel I have a decent definition. But what do other drivers see?

Another question to consider, is how to handle this driver?

Any takers?

Thanks,
Meg

Wreckless or reckless?

On the "how to handle" question: Throw paper. Throw paper. Throw paper. Protest him for reckless or dangerous driving (GCR 2.1.4). The only effective way to get a bad actor's license pulled is to build a paper trail.

[mousecatcher]

So I've got a question for every driver on Apexspeed.

Probably should get this topic moved to the General Discussion area.

[Keith Carter]

My definition a dangerous driver is one who is oblivious to things around them when on track. I've been raced hard, where no room has been given which could be seen as dangerous as well, but I feel the real danger is from one who doesn't have a clue. From my perspective there is a level of trust when passing or being passed especially in an open wheel car. One close call and no big deal. Two close calls and I'll definitely be more cautious next time they're in proximity. I don't think there is a set way to determine someone as dangerous as every situation is different, but if you're uncomfortable around anyone while racing them due to past encounters with them, to you they are dangerous.

[glenn cooper]

It's all about the situational awareness.
Use, or more specifically non-use of the mirrors is a huge red flag to indicate the dangerous driver.
It's not so much the agressive driver dive bombing up the inside, but the guy that will just do unpredictable things as you are coming up on them.
Folks not familiar with the rules in regard to caution flags is another thing that can catch folks out.
Sometimes it's car prep issues that can brand one a dangerous driver.

[Paul LeCain]

I'd draw a distinction between 'clueless' drivers and drivers who are intentionally dangerous.

The clueless driver has no idea what's going on, and/or how slowly (erratically, unpredictably, etc) he's going. You learn who these people are eventually and take great care passing them. You often get several chances to pass (lap) them during a race. Talking to them usually gets an 'Oh, was I doing that?' type of response.

Then there's the other type - the intentionally dangerous ones. With them, you have to assume that, given a chance, they'll hit you. I haven't figured out what to do with this type of driver. I'd be open to suggestions.

[Larry Hendrickson]

One measure would be the number of crashes in big races ie Runoffs,June Sprints etc. and also when the same people are being towed back to the pits or have caused other drivers to crash with dangerous moves regardless the size of the race at the National level.

[Larry]

Take a risk that may cause you to spin or to damage your car...OK.

Take a risk that may cause you to hit me or damage my car...Not OK.

As a steward, I've noted that we spend our time largely dealing with the same 10% of the drivers. Generally, they aren't the winners, either. They are mid-third guys who think that they need to take risks in order to be fast. I look at the drivers who I've regarded as really good, and who have been consistent winners, and find that they rarely have contact with other cars, rarely spin, and rarely receive an invitation to discuss their performance with the stewards. They avoid the low-probability-of-success passing attempts and are willing to choose the right moment.

Larry Oliver

[Amon]

The lack of "Situational awareness" and "inconsistant racelines" are what really
concern me when I'm trying to pass or lap a poor driver. The above posts are
spot on and I cringe when I think of several bad drivers I've encountered the
past 15 years. I don't really care if they're slow, but please have a clue about
what's going on around you etc......


Mark

[Rick Ross]

In my opinion, "racing" cars that are in another class can also be quite reckless. More than once I have come across cars of a different class that intentionally took unexpected defensive lines so that I could not pass. Some drivers unfortunately seem to feel that they are racing against anyone who happens to be near them on the track....even if they are being lapped.

[brownslane]

I'd draw a distinction between 'clueless' drivers and drivers who are intentionally dangerous.

The clueless driver has no idea what's going on, and/or how slowly (erratically, unpredictably, etc) he's going. You learn who these people are eventually and take great care passing them. You often get several chances to pass (lap) them during a race. Talking to them usually gets an 'Oh, was I doing that?' type of response.

Then there's the other type - the intentionally dangerous ones. With them, you have to assume that, given a chance, they'll hit you. I haven't figured out what to do with this type of driver. I'd be open to suggestions.

Paul, this is a difficult one. But I broke my back in a "launch" caused by another driver. If I were to be in that position with an inept person, based on what I went through, I woul do two things;

1. I would speak with the individual. One time nicely. The next time I would be careful to control my emotions, but would quietly "get in his/her face" and be explicit about what I would do to them if they screw me up one more time

2. When ever I was near them I would be "elbows out" and explicitly drive in a way that they could NOT miss me....things like run them wide on the exit of corners, short brake them into corners....just enough that they would hold their breath once or twice.....you know how to do it.

The message will get through....watch out for that guy... I would rather be thought of as a hard a$$ than be launched again. None of us can afford a complete rebuild.

There is a school for motorcylcling that encourages single bikers to ride close to the lane dividing line on highways....to me it just sounds dangerous...but the train of thought is that many bikers get run into because passing motorists do NOT respect the bike...when the guy is almost in your lane, you notice him and make a conscious effort not to run into him.

Glad I don't ride a bike any more.

For the knucklehead who gets in the way, sometimes we might just want to drive like that biker did...and send a message...perhaps the only way it will get through

Regards, Tom ( older, wiser and grumpier?!)

[Tom Valet]

I know of two drivers whose names have been turned into verbs--you know, before a race someone will warn you "watch out, dont get Wilcoxed" or after a crash "I was just Wilcoxed." I think if your competitors turn your name into a verb it is a pretty good indication they think you're dangerous.

[reidhazelton]

I know of two drivers whose names have been turned into verbs--you know, before a race someone will warn you "watch out, dont get Wilcoxed" or after a crash "I was just Wilcoxed." I think if your competitors turn your name into a verb it is a pretty good indication they think you're dangerous.

Yeah, Valet-ed. That kids a maniac!

[Amon]

Everyone has encountered these types and we all hold our breath as we try
to get past these "moving chicanes" who are oblivious to anyone behind them!
It's especially frustrating when you're in a low horsepower car such as a Vee &
you're filling the mirrors of a CF/FF/FST who is trying to race you, but does nothing
more than hold up the group and we end up with a train of cars stuck behind them.
Their faster than us in a straight line but park it in the corners lap after lap until
a banzai move is unfortunately required etc....The flaggers also seem to think
"Oh well, their in a faster class so they can't be holding up a bunch of Vee's"...
It becomes a dangerous situation when this situation occurs time after time....

Mark

[sauce_racer]

Everyone has encountered these types and we all hold our breath as we try
to get past these "moving chicanes" who are oblivious to anyone behind them!
It's especially frustrating when you're in a low horsepower car such as a Vee &
you're filling the mirrors of a CF/FF/FST who is trying to race you, but does nothing
more than hold up the group and we end up with a train of cars stuck behind them.
Their faster than us in a straight line but park it in the corners lap after lap until
a banzai move is unfortunately required etc....The flaggers also seem to think
"Oh well, their in a faster class so they can't be holding up a bunch of Vee's"...
It becomes a dangerous situation when this situation occurs time after time....

Mark

I know that situation just as well as anyone. Is it that drivers are starting in classes too fast for them? Or that they are not respecting the racing rules that are in place?

Racing rules are in place for a reason, right?

Is this person the guy/girl we can say is dangerous? Or are they just a rookie?

[Dennis Valet]

Dangerous driver......isn't that synonymous with Spec Miata Driver



I'm being slightly unfair, but SM drivers do tend to use their fenders quite often.

[RussMcB]

One trait that comes to mind is unpredictability. Whenever someone does something unexpected, bad things can result. The first example is when a driver does not drive the normal line when a faster car approaches from behind. Another is when a driver stomps on the brakes for a red flag or overly slows for a yellow.

Doing crazy things approaching the green flag. Blocking. Stuff like that.

[John Nesbitt]

Dangerous driver......isn't that synonymous with Spec Miata Driver



I'm being slightly unfair, but SM drivers do tend to use their fenders quite often.

I don't think that it is specifically an SM thing. It tends to be coincident with "large group of cars with similar performance". I have seen it with SM, SRF, and IT groups. But, if you go back a few years to the time of 40-car FF fields, you saw it there, too.

[Keith Carter]

I don't think that it is specifically an SM thing. It tends to be coincident with "large group of fendered cars with similar performance". I have seen it with SM, SRF, and IT groups. But, if you go back a few years to the time of 40-car FF fields, you saw it there, too.

Fixed that for you....

[Brands]

It's all about the situational awareness.
Use, or more specifically non-use of the mirrors is a huge red flag to indicate the dangerous driver.
It's not so much the agressive driver dive bombing up the inside, but the guy that will just do unpredictable things as you are coming up on them.
Folks not familiar with the rules in regard to caution flags is another thing that can catch folks out.
Sometimes it's car prep issues that can brand one a dangerous driver.

Yup, my biggest gripe is drivers that don't use mirrors. There's no excuse, especially if they are in a slower car to not be aware. I can't imagine turning into a corner without knowing what's going on behind and as Glen says it really is a

[Amon]

A good friend of mine quit racing with the SM crowd because he was tired
of fixing and /or replacing his fenders every other weekend.

[ghickman]

Dangerous driver......isn't that synonymous with Spec Miata Driver



I'm being slightly unfair, but SM drivers do tend to use their fenders quite often.

Since we're trading war stories....

Glad someone brought this up. We were at T-Hill last year for the Dbl National. Went out early Friday test day in the open open open test session....yep I'm out there running around in my FB with Spec Miata's...not the smartest choice on my part.

We come up to the top of the Eagles Nest or whatever it's called and the dude in the SM runs right into the back of me.

Confronted said dude in pits and he's like...."well man you were holding me up"....this was exactly what I expected from one of those door slammer knuckle heads.

Oh and whoever brought up the DRIVERS NAME being used as a VERB is right on. Back in my FF days in the 80's (70 car fields) about 10% of the field were verbs.

Maybe we all remember Andre de Crasheris (de Cesaris )

GH
FB #76

[John Nesbitt]

Fixed that for you....

Not so. Ask the guys who raced FF in the glory days. Lots of carnage. It seems to be a function of many cars with similar performance on track together.

I think that Megan is asking about the individual outliers, who crash out folks either through inattention or simple lack of caring.

[Daryl DeArman]

I've encountered two types:

The oblivious and unprectible. They think they are on the track by themselves and have no concept of theory behind communicating with flags.

That type usually has responded well to education. They seem to be over their heads and the last thing they seem to want to do is be a hazard to anybody.

The next one is the one who thinks they are invincible and often watches too much Nascar. Based on the reaction/attitude I get after talking to them the first time I decide how I am going to handle it the next time. Sometimes, folks just need to be spoken to in a language they understand. Looking back, my average is resorting to this "technique" about once every 7 years. Apparently I'm not very good at it, because 2x I was DQ'd and once resulted in a DNF with too much damage to continue. In all 3 instances I continued racing with same individuals for at least a season and never had another issue with any of them. Bullies generally pick on those who allow them to.

On edit....no it's not limited to fendered cars drivers. Mine, one in a kart, one in an open wheel car and one in a fendered car.

[John Nesbitt]

This is a response to a private query I received from a member of the board, asking what to do about a consistent problem case. I post it here since there may be general interest.

As I posted early in the thread, in my book the best response is to protest him (it's usually a him). And you do not have to be the injured party to protest someone for reckless/dangerous driving. From GCR 8.1.5:

Any entrant, driver, crew, organizer, or official participating in an event
may protest any decision, act, or omission of another entrant, driver,
crew, organizer, official, or any other person connected with that event
whose actions the protestor believes to be in error or which violate the
GCR ...

I believe that this is the best approach because it is the most direct and it starts the paper trail on the bad apple. This can lead to escalating license consequences. It also makes you a party to the action, with the right of appeal if the SOM rule against you.

There are other options:
1. Speak individually to the person. He may be simply unaware, and may start watching his mirrors.
2. Speak as a group to the person. That might get his attention.
3. Complain to the Chief Steward. Ask the Chief Steward to take action.
4. If you don't get satisfaction from the Chief Steward, contact the Executive Steward for your Division, asking for a driver's review of the offender.

[billwald]

Great comments. Good link. Should be a mandatory read for all open wheel drivers.

Thanks!

[Paul LeCain]

Any entrant, driver, crew, organizer, or official participating in an event may protest any decision, act, or omission of another entrant, driver, crew, organizer, official, or any other person connected with that event whose actions the protestor believes to be in error or which violate the GCR ...

That says that to file a protest you don't even have to be in the race where the infraction happens. You just have to be in the event. Never thought about that.

[JohnPaul]

[FONT=Verdana]I got stuck behind a slow guy in a fast car for 2 laps, he would fly down the straights and park in the turns. I was all over him, obviously I was much faster. He was very aggressive and would take the most defensive line he could and if you tried to get your nose out front he'd try to run you into the grass. I felt like I had to make a pretty sticky pass. I was livid. If I was 10 years younger I might have run him off the track. When I got back into the pits and told a few guys about it and every person I spoke to knew exactly who I was talking about before I told them. I was surprised to hear some of the stories of how he was so reckless over the years and was still allowed to drive that way. [/FONT]

[Daryl DeArman]

[FONT=Verdana]I got stuck behind a slow guy in a fast car for 2 laps, he would fly down the straights and park in the turns. I was all over him, obviously I was much faster. He was very aggressive and would take the most defensive line he could and if you tried to get your nose out front he'd try to run you into the grass. I felt like I had to make a pretty sticky pass. I was livid. If I was 10 years younger I might have run him off the track. When I got back into the pits and told a few guys about it and every person I spoke to knew exactly who I was talking about before I told them. I was surprised to hear some of the stories of how he was so reckless over the years and was still allowed to drive that way. [/FONT]

Perhaps not enough folks put him in the grass over the years. Putting him in the grass usually requires a reasonable side to side overlap and their willingness to avoid contact. I'm not too hip on that approach in an open wheel car.

I know of a guy who had "paper thrown at him" many times. Everytime he'd get probation and as soon as the probation expired he'd be back at it. Problem was the infraction he was committing time and time again only warranted (per rules we were racing under) probation. IF he would have done the same thing while under probation the penalty would have been worse. Crazy how he was able to behave while on probation but never any other time.

[RussMcB]

Oh. Another one (still under the "unpredictable" umbrella): Spinners who don't apply the brakes, so they end up shooting unexpectedly across the paths of people trying to avoid them.

That's happened to my buddy FormulaSuper twice in the last few years.

[Cole Morgan]

CLUELESS = Not watching mirrors, not noticing yellow flags, not checking the track before pulling back on after a spin, etc.

RECKLESS = No respect for competitors, intentional blocking, frequent incidents with other cars, etc.

The "clueless" drivers are helpless, mostly because they think they are doing just fine. With those guys I find the best way to get past is to give yourself some room, and don't hesitate. Stick the pass, and pull away.

When you encounter quick drivers that are just absolute idiots, things get more tricky. When you don't have the ability to pull away, you're going to have to deal with them. I try to bait them into making a mistake on their own for a lap or two. If that doesn't work, I drive them just like they are driving me, but I don't let them put me in a position to take me out. There is really no way to deal with the "I don't care if I crash, and I also don't care if I take you with me" mentality. It's as close to Al Qaeda race craft as I can imagine. I will say this though, I enjoy nothing more than going wheel to wheel through a turn, especially a fast one (ask LaRue, Tomasi, Pritchard, and anyone in F2000 Pro). BUT if you are intentionally trying to run me off the track, put me in the wall, or any other form of race craft terrorism lap after lap, I will just wait until the next straight, get on your gearbox, and use you as my braking marker. It may not benefit me much, but you're probably not going to drive me like that again are you? And if you do, you know exactly what gravel trap you'll end up in.

If this makes me as bad as those "reckless" guys so be it, but I don't like bullies much, especially when they use a 1,300 lb weapon.

[FVRacer21]

Dangerous Driver - someone who will read this thread and never see him or herself sometime in their career...

The second a driver stops learning, or listening to criticism, deserved or undeserved, makes them a dangerous driver.

I am just as afraid of a clueless driver who cannot learn, as well as the arrogant driver who refuses to learn.

In a discussion I had with a pro driver, I suggested umpires on the corners. Of course they would have to be competent enough to judge the class of drivers.

Short of this, we need a streamlined review/protest system. The results would never get published if we protested every driving mistake.

One thing that works on a regional level, is the peer pressure from your fellow drivers. I have seen a group of drivers "settle down" a wild driver.

I do not support NASCAR's "settle it on the track" policy.......

ChrisZ

[mmi16]

Dangerous driver......isn't that synonymous with Spec Miata Driver



I'm being slightly unfair, but SM drivers do tend to use their fenders quite often.

And/or Spec Recker Fords

[SMac35]

A Dangerous Driver Exhibit #1: stuck my nose it 3 laps in a row, on the same corner. The 4th lap i said screw this and tired to pass him, he turned right into me, and he ended up on two wheels.

Exhibit #2: I was side by side with a Miata for 1 turn and a small section leading up to the next turn and he turned right into me. Saying I shouldn't have been there, on the outside of the turn...cautiously entering so he could go first and I could follow....during the first lap of a 33 car field race. I got put into a wall. I did "throw paper" and it turned out well. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but if they're dangerous, protest them until they realize what they're doing. He then appealed the decision, and lost.

Getting hit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDl0DFA9VfA

1st incident was not an SCCA sanctioned race, and the second was an ITA race, for some reason I picked him out as the guy to hit me all weekend...guess bumping comes with fenders.

Steven

[Josh Pitt]

/\
my neck is stuck in an angle at ~2 O'clock position after watching the video above.

[Dennis Valet]

Steven,

That's really really lame, I feel you on that one. He had to have known you were there, since he didn't murder you in the turn before....but then just moves over in the next one???

I agree with the sentiment that some of the IT guys aren't the best racers, but then again they are regional racers for the most part on a low budget just doing it to have fun...so they don't tend to be the best drivers in the SCCA. Spend a day or two over on some IT and SM forums and you'll see more bitching about bad driving than you get here in an entire year.

[Lindsey Wolfer]

I've had my share of crashes and close encounters but a dangerous driver is simply someone who fails to show respect. Respect for the other drivers on track, no matter if they are faster or slower . One can race hard and still leave a little room for the other driver. We are a "brotherhood" of drivers who take a certain degree of risk when we venture onto the track. The driver who races without respect for the others is not part of that "brotherhood".

[DanW]

"The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above average drivers." - Dave Barry

SFR flaggers are pretty good about the blue flags ("there's a race going on behind you and you are not in it" - Purple Frog) and we have FC in our run group so there are some significant closing speeds. One must mind one's mirrors and drive the line.

I have made my share of mistakes - and have the video to remember it. I certainly would appreciate if someone would come and talk with me after the session so I can learn from them, rather than take an adversarial route. I have never had paper thrown at me, but I have apologized about inadvertantly getting in someone's way. I have also appreciated faster drivers who were starting from the back of the grid and let me know they would be charging through the field when the green is thrown.

Megan, great question to start a very enlightening thread. Thanks.

[glenn cooper]

I almost forgot brake checking.
Strictly a pu55y move, not to mention dangerous.

[SMac35]

Sorry about the angle, I was messing with it the entire weekend, when I put it in i was like "Damn, that looks really straight" after watching it...not so much.

In my region, IT is heavily contested, lots of $$$ put in it. AJ Nealy (TDi Cup front runner) runs ITA in my region, Brian Price, who easily spent 35k on his car, Ed York, former pro driver with just about as much as $$ that Brian has in his car. The competition is actually pretty stout. I switched b/c this isn't a National class, and there isn't as much guys building to national spec. And the racing is AWESOME...plus I have adapted crazy well, once I get out of school and own a dollar, I will build my car up and have a shot of winning, for way less than I would for a FV. There really is no bitchin about bad drivers...most of them, especially backmarkers are very predictable b/c the lap times can vary almost 10sec from front ITA to back of the pack.

Steven