Future of FB - Parting Recommendations

[RobLav]

I first converted an FC to motorcycle power (Hayabusa) back in 2001, and I guess I ended up helping with the original rule-writing because of that. Then I built a new Citation FB and ran that for almost 2 years. However, I decided to go back to FC with a Zetec (engine purchased already).

After some thought, I have a few recommendations for the future rules of the class:

- FB is the only formula class that has great realistic potential for technological growth and development. The rest of the formula classes are pretty much stagnant. This is a great opportunity to bring a lot more of the younger generations into purpose built racecars. Since the engines are technologically driven to gain more performance every year, the car development ought to be driven in the same way. Geartronix is a perfect example.

- I recommend no major rule changes. However, the ECU wording and application needs fixed. Rennie's and Nathan's post about allowing the option of one particular ECU - I think they said Motec, but I think one of these is better: [FONT=&quot]http://www.dtafast.co.uk/compare_ECUs.htm[/FONT]


This is a good idea. In any case, the wording concerning inputs to / from the ECU needs fixed.


- Leave the bodywork width rule as is. There is much room here for development and possible fairing in of some of the airflow around the tires.


- Do not institute a three year freeze rule. Let the engines develop. Do not end up with a one make engine.


- Do put a homologation of 500 or so motorcycle production to allow the engine.


- Do not institute inlet restrictors, at least not yet. The argument that speeds of a tubeframe car are more dangerous than in a tub car is hogwash. The RFR passed FIA tests.


- Leave the gearshifting rule as is.


Overall, we have built a successful formula. Don't be changing it too much.
Good luck to all FB competitors.


Regards,
R






[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[JohnPaul]

The rest of the formula classes are pretty much stagnant. This is a great opportunity to bring a lot more of the younger generations into purpose built racecars. Since the engines are technologically driven to gain more performance every year, the car development ought to be driven in the same way.

- I recommend no major rule changes.

You are exactly right on with every issue, especially what I quoted you on.That is the reason I didn't buy an FE. I wanted to be in a class that had continued to growth and I really liked FB's clever way to keep costs relatively in check with a stock engine rule. All these doom day predictions of the field getting spread apart by people spending the "big" money on a shifter, engine or ECU's is all Bullsh*t. Coello has none and kicks ass. The BMW never made it past qualifying and the Philly car with the ECU never came into play on the track. Ok the shifter system was on the podium but there were a cars with shifter systems that were in the back. Don't get me wrong: the right "tools" make the job easier so a nice car setup with a good motor and other things will make the drivers a bit more competitive but at the end of the day if you take me for example with very little track time, you can put me in the best car with the best of everything and I'm going to get my ass whipped by a decent driver in a decent car.
Another topic is the HP cap: in my opinion: 180hp is not enough and capping it is a HUGE mistake. Most of the people that say I'm crazy and that it is plenty fast seem to be non-drivers. 180hp is OK but it isn't fast. Now..... if the cars are not safe at higher hp/speeds that is another story. Safety is first.
Bottom line is if these rules changes go through this class will suck and will not attract any younger drivers if they think it's a quazi spec class with a bunch of whiners that change rules to suit their own race programs.
But what do I know I'm new.

[glenn cooper]

Feel better now?

The HP cap is not going to come from a vote on here, or from the driver's writing letters or e/m's to comp board.
It's in the rules as "We reserve the right to require the use of a restrictor at anytime we feel like it" kinda thing, "We" being SCCA.

"We" are out of the loop on that one, "we" being the drivers.

[bill gillespie]

As a long time FA guy, I'm seriously looking at FB for the first time. I have a Phoenix test on Tuesday....so, we'll see.

I'm only one slow guy, but the class is very attractive as is . I'll have to agree 100% with RobLav.....leave the existing rules in place...clarify ECU options.

An outsider,
Bill

[mario_zgb]

Rob, your point of view is good... but it's your point of view

what do you think how many people is out there looking and reading about fb and holding back?

as i can see you would like to make great contribution to technical development of the class, explore and try every available new system or component and see results... and i definitely support your approach

but on the other side are drivers that would like to race and be competitive... it's club racing and some of them or lots of them might not have enough time or resources to keep up with pace of development you're comfortable with... lots of them are probable waiting to buy one of citation cars, but would you agree with me that their thinking might be " i really like citation car, these guys know how to develop the car, but i better hold off for a while, they might come up with something newer soon, some stronger engine, if i buy it later i'll have more chances to be competitive"? they might be waiting to see the peak of development

geartronic is great damage prevention system and advantage on "some" tracks

whatever rules you guys propose, change or retain try to focus on main goal and there can be few different ones

1) just technical development of the class
2) just growth of the class
3) or compromise having growth and development that will not make people holding back

and of course try to leave as little as possible room in rules for different interpretation

one more plead for members of apexspeed forums... english is my second language and i still have a lot to learn... spare me from expanding my vocabulary by some of the wording used here as a result of different opinion

regards

[JohnPaul]

Feel better now?

The HP cap is not going to come from a vote on here, or from the driver's writing letters or e/m's to comp board.
It's in the rules as "We reserve the right to require the use of a restrictor at anytime we feel like it" kinda thing, "We" being SCCA.

"We" are out of the loop on that one, "we" being the drivers.

Crazy?? you don't know the half of it. wait til we hang out and go for drinks! I know that the SCCA reserves the right to make the decision but if people (mostly non-drivers from what I understand) aren't in their ears about it, they may not get involved.
Also, as far as all these issues about shifters/ECU's/Engines etc, you are a national champ that, using your own words, raced a 10 year old car with no brakes, no suspension, engine out of a wrecked bike etc, etc and you beat the sh*t out of everyone.
So I'll ask you champ: will any of these "trick" parts make a difference if you can't put them to use to begin with? I'd love to see a race where the front runners switch cars with the guys in the back of the pack and see if there is any difference in the outcome. Some of the cars in the back have better cars then the guys in the front.

but on the other side are drivers that would like to race and be competitive... it's club racing and some of them or lots of them might not have enough time or resources to keep up with pace of development you're comfortable with... lots of them are probable waiting to buy one of citation cars, but would you agree with me that their thinking might be " i really like citation car, these guys know how to develop the car, but i better hold off for a while, they might come up with something newer soon, some stronger engine, if i buy it later i'll have more chances to be competitive"? they might be waiting to see the peak of development
regards

Yes it's a club level racing but if you don't have the time or resources to be in this class you need to get the F out (not you Mario, I mean in general), go race karts or something cheaper. You can't change already existing rules because of that. If you get into this class knowing the rules don't complain that you don't have the $$ or time to keep up. I'd love to race an FA but it isn't in my budget. And as far as people waiting to "jump in" at the peak of development: those people are pikers and will be waiting forever.

Sorry I always sound angry or something, I'm not at all. thats the way I talk, I'm from NY and I'm just very blunt and to the point. No sugar coating here.

[glenn cooper]

Crazy?? you don't know the half of it. wait til we hang out and go for drinks! I know that the SCCA reserves the right to make the decision but if people (mostly non-drivers from what I understand) aren't in their ears about it, they may not get involved.
Also, as far as all these issues about shifters/ECU's/Engines etc, you are national champ that, using your own words, raced a 10 year old car with no brakes, no suspension, engine out of a wrecked bike etc, etc and you beat the sh*t out of everyone.
So I'll ask you champ: will any of these "trick" parts make a difference if you can't put them to use to begin with? I'd love to see a race where the front runners switch cars with the guys in the back of the pack and see if there is any difference in the outcome. Some of the cars in the back have better cars then the guys in the front.



Yes it's a club level racing but if you don't have the time or resources to be in this class you need to get the F out (not you Mario, I mean in general), go race karts or something cheaper. You can't change already existing rules because of that. If you get into this class knowing the rules don't complain that you don't have the $$ or time to keep up. I'd love to race an FA but it isn't in my budget. And as far as people waiting to "jump in" at the peak of development: those people are pikers and will be waiting forever.

Sorry I always sound angry or something, I'm not at all. thats the way I talk, I'm from NY and I'm just very blunt and to the point. No sugar coating here.

"What, what, what"? - Mrs. Broslofsky - Kyle's mom

Help, help, I'm being misquoted!

Hold on a sec, gotta check the year. Yep, 2010. Champ of both SCCA and F1000 Championship is Brandon Dixon.

OK, ok - former champ, ie, "Next up on Faux news, former President Bush, live from Crawford, Texas...

I NEVER said my last car had no brakes! I merely said that is had pretty damned good for what they were (FC spec, cast iron twin piston LD 20's and 19's).
I HAVE said how incredibly powerful the new brakes are on the Firman, though

I never said I beat the **** out of everyone - THAT sounds totally Jersey Shore my man, (I let the lap records and win column speak for themselves as I have become quite the Southern Gentleman" after spending my formative years on Long Island).

Lastly - I did run that car on crap suspension/dampers!

[JohnPaul]

"What, what, what"? - Mrs. Broslofsky - Kyle's mom

Help, help, I'm being misquoted!

Hold on a sec, gotta check the year. Yep, 2010. Champ of both SCCA and F1000 Championship is Brandon Dixon.

OK, ok - former champ, ie, "Next up on Faux news, former President Bush, live from Crawford, Texas...

I NEVER said my last car had no brakes! I merely said that is had pretty damned good for what they were (FC spec, cast iron twin piston LD 20's and 19's).
I HAVE said how incredibly powerful the new brakes are on the Firman, though

I never said I beat the **** out of everyone - THAT sounds totally Jersey Shore my man, (I let the lap records and win column speak for themselves as I have become quite the Southern Gentleman" after spending my formative years on Long Island).

Lastly - I did run that car on crap suspension/dampers!

I know that Dixon is the current champ but.....once a champion always a champion. You retain that title forever. So you are still the champ.
2) You didn't tell me you kicked everyones ass, I said you kicked everyones ass. The way I wrote that line looks like you said that to me, but no, you are modest and would never say that (but you did kick ass, so I'll say it for you)
3) I didn't mean you actually had no brakes but they weren't comparable to a lot of what you were up against.

Don't be modest champ.... you kicked ass last year and you still kick ass now.

Man, stirring up sh*t is fun

[mario_zgb]

I'd love to race an FA but it isn't in my budget.

well, you don't have to worry about not being able to race an FA... FA guys will start coming to FB soon...

don't worry hehe... i don't give a pie about you being blunt or not... but i think you are missing a point... at least you didn't waste any sugar

hehe don't take me seriously... just practising my english

[glenn cooper]

This is so NOT the WERA forum!!!


Drinks in the future, ok but just one.

You bringin' that thing up to the ARRC in about 4 weeks?
You can run it in FB, might even take a win, ya neva know!

PLUS it would be like homecoming for your chassis, it was born just down the road in Hoschton, GA.

Hmmm, on 2nd thought those DP04's mighta been brazed up in Merry Ol' UK...

[mario_zgb]

naah... not by rules... it was though, originaly they came with 999cc engine, but this one is souped up... so kind of fits this class hehehe

back home we called them Yugo 45

45 stands for horses

[JohnPaul]

This is so NOT the WERA forum!!!


Drinks in the future, ok but just one.

You bringin' that thing up to the ARRC in about 4 weeks?
You can run it in FB, might even take a win, ya neva know!

PLUS it would be like homecoming for your chassis, it was born just down the road in Hoschton, GA.

Hmmm, on 2nd thought those DP04's mighta been brazed up in Merry Ol' UK...

[FONT=Verdana]No problem Champ, just one drink (yeah right!)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I'd love to come up to the ARRC but my schedule is a disaster. I wanted to go to the SARRC in Roebling but I don't qualify because I only have 2 race, I tried calling people at SARRC to see if they'd make any exception but no response. The following week at Sebring I have my brother-in-laws sons baptism, which is really annoying considering he is like 5 years old and he could have picked any other weekend. Then we have my brother that got this wife knocked up at 45 years old (which is great) but they are having the baby shower the ARRC weekend so I'll be in jolly old NY. I can't take this I'm going to lose it. I think I'll do the Sebring weekend, I'll do the Friday practice and Sat. morning practice but miss the qualifying so I can get home for the 1pm baptism, go to the party and head back up and do the Sunday 20 minute regional race from the back of the pack. This really sucks but at least I'll get some seat time. Beattie and Brett Lane will be up front so even if I work my way up to the front the race will be over. I'm wondering if they'd let me qualify during the Saturday morning qualifying?[/FONT]

BTW: I know why everyone if freaking out, I just bought the new Cycle World mag with the new ZX10 and 200HP in bold text right next to it. First the BMW and now the Kaw... just like I figured, Suzuki will be next, Honda will be last since they nevet get into the HP game (they concentrate on handling)... the war has begun offically.

[tonyave]

what do you think how many people is out there looking and reading about fb and holding back?

The current model of FB is the only thing making me look into open wheel racing again, (except for wanting to avenge some bad luck at the Turkey Night Grand Prix Midget event, but thats another topic...). The single biggest reason I like it is that the cars all look different, nothing is spec'ed out, and ingenuity is actually required, instead of discouraged. To those who are afraid of such a venue, try FE.

The main thing holding me back from building a variation of my own (past the obvious of trying to keep up with demand for my Trans-Am cars, thankfully), or at least trying my hand in one of my buddy Wayne Felch's cars, is waiting to see if the 'open' nature of the class will remain, as it is the only reason I am attracted to it.

Tony Ave

[allof6]

To those who are afraid of such a venue, try FE.

AMEN!!

[NYankee]

I personally love the way FB rules are now. There are not very many other cheaper ways to go racing at this speed, and there is no other way to do it with this many people in a class. On the other hand I am a fan of the openess of the rules. For everyone out there who is a home tinkerer or in my case an engineer I get to do projects where my only limit is the cost, development effort and my ingenuity.

I for one am not a fan of restrictors. Since drag force increases with the square of velocity, adding hp is not where the real gains will be seen (to a point. its not really this simple). Aero is what will drive this class to higher top speeds, more power will get us there faster. Plus engine manufacturers will not be seeing huge hp jumps every single year, they come in generations.

I have almost no comment on the whole gear shifting discussion because that is bound to stir the pot. But as an analyst, anything to make the engine/tranny last longer is great, and while it is nice to have the ability to keep both hands on the wheel, its not a requirement to be fast. 'Nuff said.

With the whole ECU discussion I will also leave most comments out, but keeping in mind that bike manufacturers spend lots-o-dough to win their own hp war, I would not be expecting any great jumps in HP. Not really a fan of the cost of a standalone unit. For the argument of going over if ppl institute whatever trick system they have for gear selection and whatnot, there are plenty of ways to do this without going through the ECU. So a change of wording would be nice to clarify intent but leave the rule the same. (hopefully thats clear)

I wanted to put my $.02 in so anyone keeping track of the general attitude of the class now has one more opinion.
Im really hoping to graduate college with a job that makes some good cash so I can get me my own FB toy to go racing with.......or make my own, in the spirit of development.

Matt

[JohnPaul]

I personally love the way FB rules are now. There are not very many other cheaper ways to go racing at this speed, and there is no other way to do it with this many people in a class. On the other hand I am a fan of the openess of the rules. For everyone out there who is a home tinkerer or in my case an engineer I get to do projects where my only limit is the cost, development effort and my ingenuity.

I for one am not a fan of restrictors. Since drag force increases with the square of velocity, adding hp is not where the real gains will be seen (to a point. its not really this simple). Aero is what will drive this class to higher top speeds, more power will get us there faster. Plus engine manufacturers will not be seeing huge hp jumps every single year, they come in generations.

I have almost no comment on the whole gear shifting discussion because that is bound to stir the pot. But as an analyst, anything to make the engine/tranny last longer is great, and while it is nice to have the ability to keep both hands on the wheel, its not a requirement to be fast. 'Nuff said.

With the whole ECU discussion I will also leave most comments out, but keeping in mind that bike manufacturers spend lots-o-dough to win their own hp war, I would not be expecting any great jumps in HP. Not really a fan of the cost of a standalone unit. For the argument of going over if ppl institute whatever trick system they have for gear selection and whatnot, there are plenty of ways to do this without going through the ECU. So a change of wording would be nice to clarify intent but leave the rule the same. (hopefully thats clear)

I wanted to put my $.02 in so anyone keeping track of the general attitude of the class now has one more opinion.
Im really hoping to graduate college with a job that makes some good cash so I can get me my own FB toy to go racing with.......or make my own, in the spirit of development.

Matt

Now this guy is smart! look at his name.

[JRB]

Hello all! This is my first post here,and not a car owner, but am interested in becoming one, But I have to admit, after following this forum for some time I have been scared off a little. Just some thoughts from the outside looking in: How about spec shocks(come on 10,000 for shocks?!) and spec shifter? Also, my experiance with stock engine classes, is they don't help costs much! You will always have someone buying the latest, greatest engines, and there's nothing wrong with that,but what about relaxing the rules to allow the guy with the '06 GSXR(or whatever) some room to modify so they can compete. I know that might be opening a can of worms but just a thought.

[NYankee]

I have no knowledge of your driving experience, but for someone just getting into this game:

I know 10 grand for shocks sounds like alot, and it is. But 10 grand shocks are not going to give you any advantage over the guy running 3 grand worth of shocks if they are not set up properly. Until you have the skill, equipment or resources (can find someone who does know what they are doing) to utilize your 10 grand shocks to their fullest potential, there is absolutely no point in running them. In fact, in my opinion you would be better off with single or double adjustable ones, because the designer has a much better idea of the ratio for stiffness between low speed and high speed damping then anyone with a basic data logging set does.

dont let stuff like this deter you! this is still in my opinion the best class in SCCA.

(if anyone has comments on the validity of my info, let me know)

[JRB]

Been fishing,have not had tine to reply. My point is more about the direction of the class not the shocks,shifter,ect... This class could be even better with a little cost containment, Or maybe racers like me (who can ALMOST afford FB ) should stay the F### out as was stated elsewhere