Geartronics Shift System

[glenn cooper]

Currently P5 after 2 Qually sessions, although I fully expect to move up in Q3 on Thursday: my shifting woes continue up here even after my cable shifter mod - it seems the problem lies elsewhere, and after getting smoked by all the guys with the Geartronix pneumatic gearchange system - I have decided to bite the rather substantial bullet and pulled the trigger on the purchase last night.

Incredibly frustrating to be coming into T5 or T14/Canada and need to go down 4 gears and can only do 1, before the lever no longer moves, until the car slows enough to actually allow further down changes.

This is the same problem that caught me out at The June Sprints, it took me this long to act on it and after yesterday's dismal performance, I was convinced - what the hell was I doing out there driving around with no hope of even being on the box

Today will be spent doing the install, which according to Nick Belling of Firman Cars West, usually takes THREE days.
Parts off his car in Vancouver BC were pulled last night and are on their way here now, with the final bits arriving at the track at 8am EST Friday, and we take the green for our 3rd and final qually 3.5 hrs later. Noooooooooooo problem...

Yep, this is the stuff of SCCA Runoffs lore: folks doing the impossible, and making it seem routine.

Gotta get to work, L8R!

[Mike B]

Parts off his car in Vancouver BC were pulled last night and are on their way here now, with the final bits arriving at the track at 8am EST Friday, and we take the green for our 3rd and final qually 3.5 hrs later. Noooooooooooo problem...

You might want to check that schedule again...

[dc]

...after getting smoked by all the guys with the Geartronix pneumatic gearchange system - I have decided to bite the rather substantial bullet and pulled the trigger on the purchase last night.

That's unfortunate that it comes down to have it or not be anywhere close.

And you guys were worried about aluminum brake calipers.

[Rick Ross]

So how much does one of these Geartronix systems cost?

[JohnPaul]

any idea which shifting system Coop was running? Flatshifter? James Lee finally worked the kinks out of my flatshfter system, it requires alot of fine tuning and if your foot is even slightly touching the gas pedal it would down shift. But once it was set if worked really good.

[Mike B]

So how much does one of these Geartronix systems cost?

I've been told between $5k and $7k.

any idea which shifting system Coop was running? Flatshifter?

Cable-operated with a regular old shifter on the right.

[JohnPaul]

I've been told between $5k and $7k.

Wow, wow, that's mucho dinero. The Flatshifter system was $2k

Cable-operated with a regular old shifter on the right.

Duhhh.....I guess I should have read his thread a little closer, he said it.

[Thomas Copeland]

The shift system itself cost just around $5.5 to 5.7K. After we sold the first system we realized that we needed to be track side to properly set the system up in the car. That increases the cost another $1000. We spend a great deal of time with the customer getting him up to speed on the system and helping him with it during testing. We are also currently putting together a setup and operations video for the system.

We do everything we can to keep the price we pass on to the customer as low as we possibly can. If you saw how well this system is made of and how well it functions you would understand why the system costs as much as it does. This really is as close as you as a club racer can get to an actual F1 capable paddle shifter costing tens of thousands of dollars more.

The shifter system is highly sophisicated. It is completely fault-free. You absolutely can not over rev or force shift with this system.

This shifter more than pays for itself over time as it saves huge wear and tear on your engine, gears, etc. When we torn down Nicholas' 09 Suzuki after more than a season's worth of running George Dean told us the engine still looked practially brand new.

This is just one of the elements that we were trying to put together for F1000 when we created Firman West Cars. Getting the exclusive rights to sell the system in North America allowed us the means to develop it for the F1000 car. This, along with the all the effort we put into the dry sump for the Suzuki 09 motor. The fact that we can do all this is why Nicholas and I initially got out of FC and went to F1000. We really do enjoy this class and we are committed to improving it and helping it grow.

I'm really looking forward to seeing my first runoffs and watching all our cars (both the Firman and the ones with our Geartronics paddle shifter) competing.

[Wren]

In fairness, Niki is running a mechanical shifter and is P3. I understnd that he does not want a gartronics because he is already well above minimum weight in his Firman. Schweitz and Brandon are both very close to minimum weight.

The geartronics system is super nice. I believe that Brandon, Schweitz, Burkett, and soon to be Coop are the ony people in the field with one. I don't know how much time it is worth, but it can really help the driver stay in front of the car.

almost All of the other classes were slower yesterday, including FA and FB, so hopefully we have found something in Brandon's car that will let him get into the 7's and to the front.

Right now Brandon is working on the wiring for Coops new shifter.

[Ivinsea]

That's unfortunate that it comes down to have it or not be anywhere close.

I think the technical evolution of the FB class is exciting. Personally I find FC's and FE's boring. Even with Purple Frog's brilliant photos of the F2000 series, you've basically got 99% Van Diemens with a few different wings and a few other minor details. FB is bound to succeed with all the new manufacturers and cool technology.

In fairness, Niki is running a mechanical shifter and is P3. I understnd that he does not want a gartronics because he is already well above minimum weight in his Firman.

Wren - what is the wet weight of an RFR?

Right now Brandon is working on the wiring for Coops new shifter.

If that doesn't illustrate the spirit of the Runoffs, I don't know what does.

[DonArm]

I had the opportunity to see the Geartronics system up close. It's a very slick well thought out and developed system. I've also had the opportunity to speak with Neal Wallace the owner of Geartronic a few times. He's a very nice gentleman and provided a lot of information about the system. I also had the opportunity last week to speak to Nicholas B. about the system and he provide some very good information.
I'll definitely be using one in my car when it's finished.
The support from Nicholas is top notch and he let me know that he is available anytime to work out issues that may develop. I know that Brandon and Tom S have had no real issues with the system, it has pretty much worked flawlessly.

[Jon Jeffords]

In fairness, Niki is running a mechanical shifter and is P3. I understnd that he does not want a gartronics because he is already well above minimum weight in his Firman.

As Niki is the "Chuck Norris" of formula cars, he doesn't actually touch the shift lever. He simply glares at it, and it immediately shifts into the correct gear.

[ghickman]

Since we are on this subject those that are looking for a well developed less expensive Air Shifter contact Eric @ West Cars. They've been running this for a few years now. They orginally started out using the Proshift solenoid fired system but found it was unreliable so they built their own.

System costs about $2,200 with the auto blipper included. It uses a paint ball gun bottle and will do over 700 shifts before refill. They use a small nitrogen bottle for refilling.

West's sytem doesn't have all the fancy closed loop rotary encoder but it gets the job done..

Just wanted to add that I've been running a mechanical paddle shift for 2 seasons with no problems. I can row thru the gears pretty quick.

GH
FB #76

[racer27]

I've been told between $5k and $7k.

I bet it is slick and fun, but Ouch!!! I could buy a club ford for that price.

[Mike B]

I bet it is slick and fun, but Ouch!!! I could buy a club ford for that price.

Oh, it's slick alright, and probably pretty fun. Just not what the class needs at this time. I'm afraid it's too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

[mario_zgb]

i love to see development and new ideas in this class but...

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...track-july.pdf

go to page 10

am i reading it wrong or genie might have to go back in the bottle?

reading it quickly at work... i might have missed something

[KevinFirlein]

pretty sure thats the rule for bike motors in F500 not FB

[jcolley]

pretty sure thats the rule for bike motors in F500 not FB

I'm reading it on an iPhone, but that's what it looks like to me too, F500...

[formulasuper]

i love to see development and new ideas in this class but...

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...track-july.pdf

go to page 10

am i reading it wrong or genie might have to go back in the bottle?

reading it quickly at work... i might have missed something

That's for the F500 class only. It's an attemp to keep at least one class from becoming a money pit. I believe they also are restricted to wet sump only oil systems.

[SOseth]

The shift system itself cost just around $5.5 to 5.7K. After we sold the first system we realized that we needed to be track side to properly set the system up in the car. That increases the cost another $1000. We spend a great deal of time with the customer getting him up to speed on the system and helping him with it during testing. We are also currently putting together a setup and operations video for the system.

We do everything we can to keep the price we pass on to the customer as low as we possibly can. If you saw how well this system is made of and how well it functions you would understand why the system costs as much as it does. This really is as close as you as a club racer can get to an actual F1 capable paddle shifter costing tens of thousands of dollars more.

The shifter system is highly sophisicated. It is completely fault-free. You absolutely can not over rev or force shift with this system.

This shifter more than pays for itself over time as it saves huge wear and tear on your engine, gears, etc. When we torn down Nicholas' 09 Suzuki after more than a season's worth of running George Dean told us the engine still looked practially brand new.

This is just one of the elements that we were trying to put together for F1000 when we created Firman West Cars. Getting the exclusive rights to sell the system in North America allowed us the means to develop it for the F1000 car. This, along with the all the effort we put into the dry sump for the Suzuki 09 motor. The fact that we can do all this is why Nicholas and I initially got out of FC and went to F1000. We really do enjoy this class and we are committed to improving it and helping it grow.

I'm really looking forward to seeing my first runoffs and watching all our cars (both the Firman and the ones with our Geartronics paddle shifter) competing.

Does anyone besides me find it ironic that in a class created to make use of cheap motorcycle engines you now need a $ 7000.00 shifting mechanism to be competative?

SteveO

[dc]

Does anywone besides me find it ironic that in a class created to make use of cheap motorcycle engines you now need a $7000.00 shifting mechanism to be competative?

You are certainly not alone.

[DonArm]

The price keeps going up and up and up everytime I see a new post.
$4600 according to Nicholas B.

[Wren]

That's unfortunate that it comes down to have it or not be anywhere close.

And you guys were worried about aluminum brake calipers.

I had written out a long post but my blackberry lost it. I will summarise:

1. The aluminum calipers and wide bodywork a re a big part of why we need the shifters.

2. It is a one time expense in a very expensive class. The cost of the shifter is very much in line with the cost of a good gearbox rebuild. Why are people so hung up on it?

3. If we took every shifter off of the grid. Dixon, Schweitz, and Burkett are not going to change their qualifying position. It is far from an unfair advantage. Remember that Niki doesn't have a shifter at all.

4. They can save money and hassle in the long run. They are much easier on engines. You cannot even feel a downshift in these cars.

I imagine the F600 guys are going to end up wanting them because they solve all of the shifter problems that can be hard to overcome otherwise.

[dc]

The price keeps going up and up and up everytime I see a new post. $4600 according to Nicholas B.

The shift system itself cost just around $5.5 to 5.7K. After we sold the first system we realized that we needed to be track side to properly set the system up in the car. That increases the cost another $1000.

Just about $7g, all said and done.

You guys are going to have $150,000 race cars really soon.

[mario_zgb]

[FONT=Arial]thx for clarifying previous pdf file for me guys[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...2-fastrack.pdf[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]DEVICES THAT ALLOW PRE-SELECTED GEAR CHANGES ARE PROHIBITED[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]ok... can somebody clarify above one for me?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Does that mean that solenoid operated shifters are permitted as long as shifting is not controlled by software?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]as far as i can see some of the air or electric solenoid operated shifters come with software package that allows you to PRE-SELECT downshifting... i still think you need skills and knowledge to PRE-SELECT power band and rpm, but once it's done you don't have to think about it during the race... driver can focus more on perfect lane and braking points which will result with faster lap times... so if you want to be fast and not rely so much on your driving skills that's the way to go but...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]price for car equipped with that kind of shifters is up to $7000 higher... that's the fact[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]engines in cars equipped with those kind of shifters will last longer... is that the fact too?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]cars equipped with solenoid or air operated shifters but without pre-select option can be hard on transmission components... [/FONT][FONT=Arial]another fact?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]so what's the way to go? ... or permitted to go?[/FONT]

[DonArm]

Just about $7g, all said and done.

You guys are going to have $150,000 race cars really soon.

Nicholas only charges for the system and transportation to set the system up. He does not charge for the time he spends setting the system up.
Talk to him, it's not close to $7k well if you consider $2400 close.

[Purple Frog]

Coming soon to a race track near you... DSR without fenders.

[Thomas Copeland]

Sorry for any confusion, The price on the shifter varies sometimes due to changes in currency market because we buy this system in British pounds. Therefore it's subject to price changes. Some systems we are selling now we bought when the dollar was high aganist the pound. Also sometimes Nicholas waves some of the trackside expense depending on situation (like he's already there). Hope this helps clarify.

[Ivinsea]

Guys - 7K for a semi-auto shifter is about the same as a Pinto rebuild....

I don't have one on my car, but I would REALLY love to hear 4 downshifts in 1 second....sounds like a junior F1 car to me for reasonable money.

[mario_zgb]

what does rule say about blippers?

are software controlled throttle pedals permitted?

[DonArm]

Guys - 7K for a semi-auto shifter is about the same as a Pinto rebuild....

I don't have one on my car, but I would REALLY love to hear 4 downshifts in 1 second....sounds like a junior F1 car to me for reasonable money.

Your exactly correct, it does sound like a mini F1 car

[JohnPaul]

You can get a flatshifter paddle system with auto-blip up and down for $2000 and don't have to deal with a air bottle and you get 4 shifts per second also.

[Wren]

I spent some time with Stan Clayton this morning. The crb asked him to gather some info on these shifter systems for them. Some of the slow manufacturers are complaining that we are cheating. We are not. The Firman west guys explained how the system works and Stan will be reporting back to the crb. I am not worried, just annoyed.

These systems are well within the spirit and letter of the rule. This is exactly what was intended by the rule. These systems do not allow predetermined gear selections. Period. These systems are not worth half a second a lap around this place. The fast guys are fast because of their driving and their car.

As for cost, you could still replicate Brandon's car for about $50k, including the fancy shocks and the shifter.

Q3 sucked, there was water on the track.

[mario_zgb]

well... because of some reason fast Coop thinks it's worth going through trouble and expense in order to have the system for final race

i hope people don't spend money on those shifters and later find out that rule doesn't allow them... talking about versions with pre-selected gear changes

i'm still waiting on different opinions about that

check page 8

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...2-fastrack.pdf

is, software decided when downshift is going to be executed regardless of driver attempt to downshift too early, considered pre-selected gear change?

[Franklin Futrelle]

haha only 50g. yall spend away and have fun...

i thought this class was gonna be the future of scca formula car racing. it appears to be going in the way of dsr. spend 10g a weekend or dont even bother coming.

i think they should allow traction control, active suspension, anti-lock brakes, cockpit adjustable wings, and kers

[mario_zgb]

or should we just drop the issue and propose the rule change?

that would be simple enough

[R. Pare]

The relevant rule in the GCR reads:

D. All gear changes must be initiated by the driver. Mechanical gear
shifters, direct-acting electric solenoid shifters, air-shifters and
similar devices are permitted. Devices that allow pre-selected gear
changes are prohibited.

[DonArm]

The relevant rule in the GCR reads:

D. All gear changes must be initiated by the driver. Mechanical gear
shifters, direct-acting electric solenoid shifters, air-shifters and
similar devices are permitted. Devices that allow pre-selected gear
changes are prohibited.

Thank you Richard !!!

[mario_zgb]

change it to

D. All gear changes must be initiated by the driver. Mechanical gear
shifters, direct-acting electric solenoid shifters, air-shifters and
similar devices are permitted. Automatic transmissions are prohibited.


and we're all on the same page

[Wren]

is, software decided when downshift is going to be executed regardless of driver attempt to downshift too early, considered pre-selected gear change?

I do not know how else to say this: the system does not do that. You cannot cue a shift and have it executed at a later time. Period.

This system is exactly legal per the GCR and is exactly what the rules makers intended to allowing.