my next question... what chassis?

[vdrcr]

if i were to get into fv, which one's are most competitive and what seems to be the reason for that? are there any must have set-ups?
thanks

[eospeed]

if i were to get into fv, which one's are most competitive and what seems to be the reason for that? are there any must have set-ups?
thanks

Speedsport then a Vortech both are about 25-35k new depending what you pay for extra's and how you trim it.After that a Caracal D to a P2 protoform are all very close. I spent almost 30k building my D car and I will have less than 22 in my FF with honda power.

Erik

[FVRacer21]

if i were to get into fv, which one's are most competitive and what seems to be the reason for that? are there any must have set-ups?
thanks

First, what is your overall budget for the year? Buying the best car does you no good if you can't afford to race it.

What are you planning on doing for tires? Nationally, you might be looking at a set every other race, or you can stretch to every 3rd race. What are they now $650 a set mounted and balanced?

An engine rebuild is about $1500 with a refresh during the year if running Nationals.

Plan for crash damage, entry fees, gas, travel expenses etc. about $600 per race.

Now where is your budget for a car?

A winning car for Regionals can be bought for under $6000. for Nationals, under $10,000.

Bargains are all around. (some with trailers)

Cars that are competitive - in no particular order. Womer, VDF, Citation, Protoform, Caracal (D), Mysterian, Lazer. The elite- the SpeedSport and Vortech are much harder to come by and priced accordingly.

If you are in the NE, best thing is to come up to the NARRC Runoffs at Lime Rock (I believe Oct 1 and 2) and see for yourself. Also, catch the National Runoffs on the web.

ChrisZ

[Matt King]

What are they now $650 a set mounted and balanced?

Closer to $800 from Hoosier with M&B at the track.

[eospeed]

First, what is your overall budget for the year? Buying the best car does you no good if you can't afford to race it.

What are you planning on doing for tires? Nationally, you might be looking at a set every other race, or you can stretch to every 3rd race. What are they now $650 a set mounted and balanced?

An engine rebuild is about $1500 with a refresh during the year if running Nationals.

Plan for crash damage, entry fees, gas, travel expenses etc. about $600 per race.

Now where is your budget for a car?

A winning car for Regionals can be bought for under $6000. for Nationals, under $10,000.

Bargains are all around. (some with trailers)

Cars that are competitive - in no particular order. Womer, VDF, Citation, Protoform, Caracal (D), Mysterian, Lazer. The elite- the SpeedSport and Vortech are much harder to come by and priced accordingly.

If you are in the NE, best thing is to come up to the NARRC Runoffs at Lime Rock (I believe Oct 1 and 2) and see for yourself. Also, catch the National Runoffs on the web.

ChrisZ

What nat winning car can you buy for 10k? Also not all rebuilds can be had for 1500.00 as with anything you buy you get what you pay for.

E

[S Lathrop]

In FV, a good driver, a good engine, good tires, and well setup runs with any other car similarly setup. Which car you run is one of the least improtant decisions you have.

As to budget, my advice has been to figure how much money you have to go racing and spend less than half for the car. Be very realistic about the money you can spend. When I started it was 1/3 of my salary, max.

[eospeed]

[quote=S Lathrop;268380]In FV, a good driver, a good engine, good tires, and well setup runs with any other car similarly setup. Which car you run is one of the least improtant decisions you have.

Steve please explain the Speedsport 25 plus sec victories at RA then? I have been watching my father race Vees for many moons an I know this is not quite true.

[S Lathrop]

[quote=eospeed;268383]

In FV, a good driver, a good engine, good tires, and well setup runs with any other car similarly setup. Which car you run is one of the least improtant decisions you have.

Steve please explain the Speedsport 25 plus sec victories at RA then? I have been watching my father race Vees for many moons an I know this is not quite true.

?

[Bruce]

The Speedsport as with the Vortech are good cars driven by very good drivers. Mike Varacin's advantage at last years Runoff was he was able to drive a near perfect race. Everyone behind him fought for every corner and never did they work together. Mike's top speed was only average but his car handled exceptionally well through the corners. You have to give him credit for his race prep ( car and driver ), driving skill and knowledge of the track.

I too think most cars can be as competitive as the next. There are always exceptions, however I can not discount the Varacin equation stated above.

Logically I would have to agree with ChrisZ. Your budget is really going to tell you what kind of racing you will be involved.

[S Lathrop]

Bruce;

I have not been closely involved with FV in several years. There are new cars every year and names change constantly. Maybe next year that will change for me. I have been working on a new car for over a decade and maybe it will get to the track sometime.

[FVRacer21]

What nat winning car can you buy for 10k? Also not all rebuilds can be had for 1500.00 as with anything you buy you get what you pay for.

E

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41774

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34283

http://www.sracing.com/ForSale/xtc1.jpg

For a new driver, all of the above are potential Nationally winning cars. The Runoffs? That is a different story. I would think that for a new driver, even one with talent, the car will be faster than the driver the first year - what I call the Danica Syndrome.

ChrisZ

[problemchild]

While I am constantly frustrated by the Formula Vee community's ability to contain costs, I think Erik's vision is overly pessimistic. I have no trouble beleiving that Steve Davis, Brad Stout, or Roger Siebenaler could not drop their engine in any $5K car on the market .... win Nationals and run top-10 at the Runoffs. These elite drivers, like those in other classes, get access to the best engines, tires, shocks, cars, parts, etc. They can spend their resources efficiently, apply their knowledge, and transform someone's '****box' into a good car in no time. The 'good ole boys' of FV are the 'good ole boys' for a reason.

As I council my FV customers, I beleive that the common FVs (Caracal, Mysterian, Womer, Vector, Protoform, etc) are most adequate and often better for 98% of FV racers than the big buck cars. I would agree with Mr Lathrop's comments.

PS .... Weight is a hugh impairment for many people in the class. Make sure you fit in the car .... but also make sure you won't be excessively heavy. I expect that for people staying in the class .... selling their heavy car for a lighter one is the prime motive. Also beware, that being lighter, brings the compromises of safety and crashability.

PS .... A car whose engine has direct and verifiable lineage to a respected established builder is worth more than one without. Almost every car has a Noble or Autowerks or ? ..... but if it has been more than 2 yrs or anyone else has been inside since ..... deligence is required and value considered.

[eospeed]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41774

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34283

http://www.sracing.com/ForSale/xtc1.jpg

For a new driver, all of the above are potential Nationally winning cars. The Runoffs? That is a different story. I would think that for a new driver, even one with talent, the car will be faster than the driver the first year - what I call the Danica Syndrome.

ChrisZ

I guess when I think of a nat winning car I ment a car that could win the Runoffs and none of those cars can do it right now.I dont even think they could win a NE nat maybe saslow's car.

[vdrcr]

so it sounds like the motor/driver/setup are the most important things and the rules have contained the dollars=speed formula a little bit anyways. i quess i'll be looking for something with a low frontal area and low center of gravity if possible. any suggestions?

[FVRacer21]

so it sounds like the motor/driver/setup are the most important things and the rules have contained the dollars=speed formula a little bit anyways. i guess i'll be looking for something with a low frontal area and low center of gravity if possible. any suggestions?

You location list you as Connecticut, so you might start with Steve at VSR and Dave Carr at Autowerks, they usually have their ear to the ground of what is available. If you timing was different, I might have recommended Jim Kearney's Protoform

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40502

A little expensive but you got EVERYTHING you needed.

You could always go to the Runoffs and wave money around and maybe catch someone who is getting out and/or moving up.

Here are the top cars/drivers in in the NE Division. I would say these are the models you should be looking at. There are other cars (Adams, Citation, Brd, Lazer) that can go fast, but you might want to pick a car you can share set up information with.

1Roger Siebenaler Mysterian
2Edward Womer Womer
3Gary Kittell Caracal D
4Jonathan Weisheit Protoform
5David Scaler Mysterian
6Rick Shields VDF2
7Greg Rice Mysterian
8Dale Rader Protoform

ChrisZ

[eospeed]

You location list you as Connecticut, so you might start with Steve at VSR and Dave Carr at Autowerks, they usually have their ear to the ground of what is available. If you timing was different, I might have recommended Jim Kearney's Protoform

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40502

A little expensive but you got EVERYTHING you needed.

You could always go to the Runoffs and wave money around and maybe catch someone who is getting out and/or moving up.

Here are the top cars/drivers in in the NE Division. I would say these are the models you should be looking at. There are other cars (Adams, Citation, Brd, Lazer) that can go fast, but you might want to pick a car you can share set up information with.

1Roger Siebenaler Mysterian
2Edward Womer Womer
3Gary Kittell Caracal D
4Jonathan Weisheit Protoform
5David Scaler Mysterian
6Rick Shields VDF2
7Greg Rice Mysterian
8Dale Rader Protoform

ChrisZ

My point is all those guys would want close to 20k for those cars Im sure no where near 10k

[vdrcr]

thanks for the info. i thought i remembered a lot of protoforms, caracals and a womer or two near the top of the 2009 runoffs results, and of course the speedsports and vortechs. the latter will likely be out of my price range. i don't have the funds yet, but i will likely be looking to spend 6 to 10 thou on a vee package, and might spend a little more if it has everything i need, including setup equipment...
that's what i'm thinking anyway...

[problemchild]

Its a buyer's market. We all might want $20k for our cars .... but market value is way less than that. Shop wisely, and $10K will set you up nicely! Mine is not for sale .... but it probably would be if I thought it would sell for more than $10K ..... and that's with a $5K engine
Welcome and good luck!

[eospeed]

7500 will get you my D car roller. Then you just need a motor and gauges.


E

[Amon]

VDRCR,

I'm 6'1" and 205 lbs. (at the moment) and have owned several
competitive Vee's over the years. The Caracal D I owned was tight
in the seat for me, the 95' Citation fit better as far as length but
was a little tight in the shoulders, and my current Protoform P-2
gives me the most room in the shoulders and legs etc... However,
I sat in a Mysterian several years ago and it provided more room
than any car I've tried up to this point, so not knowing your size,
go to the track and try them on for size to see if you fit. Most Vee
drivers are very cordial and will help you determine what car is
most suited for you. Good luck in your search!

Mark

[vdrcr]

i'm on the smaller side, 5'9", about 140lbs... i should fit in anything i'm guessing, but i do like snug...

[problemchild]

Perfect size for a FV driver!

[vdrcr]

come to think of it, i might need about 100lbs of ballast!!!

[Wren]

However, I sat in a Mysterian several years ago and it provided more room than any car I've tried up to this point,

Hmmm. I am 6'2" and weighed about 210 when I had a Mysterian M2. Getting in and out of that car was a nightmare. I had to squeeze size 14 feet into 11.5 just to be able to work the pedals and I always got out of the car bleeding from different places where it rubbed me.

[Amon]

Wren,

It was Rick Ruckman's sister car to the one Greg Rice purchased from him.
I don't know if it was a special "one-off" size wise but it fit me better than
any car I've tried, except for the two D-13's I've owned which are not
nationally competitive anymore.


Mark

[Wren]

Wren,

It was Rick Ruckman's sister car to the one Greg Rice purchased from him.
I don't know if it was a special "one-off" size wise but it fit me better than
any car I've tried, except for the two D-13's I've owned which are not
nationally competitive anymore.


Mark

It's probably just different people fitting different ways. More reason for the OP to go sit in some cars.

[Matt King]

i thought i remembered a lot of protoforms, caracals and a womer or two near the top of the 2009 runoffs results, and of course the speedsports and vortechs.

People keep referring to "Speedsports" like there is some factory cranking them out. As far as I know, and I think Mike recently confirmed, there is only one complete AM-5, plus a few spares parts and pieces.

[FVRacer21]

My point is all those guys would want close to 20k for those cars Im sure no where near 10k

Just to be clear - I was not suggesting they buy that specific car, but rather he look at the models that were there. I agree that with a little time, any of the top drivers and their engines in almost any car would be competitive. The fact that drivers tend to stick with what they know, means there is not a lot of switching. Would Roger go better in a VDF? Would Gary like a Citation? Will Ed ever drive anything other than his own car?

If all things are equal, the main determining factors (after driving talent) seem to be:
1. Engine (and Exhaust package)
2. Tires (condition and alignment setup)
3. Shocks
4. Aerodynamics
5. Transmission

So maybe the next step is:
1. Find a car you fit in and you like
2. Get a good Engine
3. Get a good Engine (if you didn't hear it the first time)
4. Make sure the car has the right parts to start with (shocks, tranny and exhaust)
5. For cost make sure it has a good fuel cell and fire system.

ChrisZ

[vdrcr]

so, which shocks do people recommend? who builds good engines and tranny's? who builds good engines? (did i ask that already? ) and what exhausts are good?

[FVRacer21]

so, which shocks do people recommend? who builds good engines and tranny's? who builds good engines? (did i ask that already? ) and what exhausts are good?

Well I am biased so I will stick regionally (NE):

Engines - Dave Carr - AutorWerks (NJ)
Transmissions - Steve Pastore - VSR (CT)
Exhausts - Steve (and intakes) (CT)
Shocks - Penske (although people have other preferences for the front)

Now, there are at least 5 other major engine builders across the country. 3 or more tranny builders and dozens of shops that can handle shocks. At least 3 or more intake specialists and a like number for exhausts.

Someone above said, if the engine has been out of the hands of a major builder for more than a year - look out. The same can be said of any part that you cannot trace its lineage.

And cars do move from region to region. So a Noble engine can end up in SoCA and a Quicksilver here in the NE. Your call if you want to send engines back and forth or have the local guy handle it.

Dyno's vary, so be careful of quoted figures.

BTW - a good web site is the SR Racing http://www.sracing.com. Jim has a book on FV and while I have not read it, I am sure it worth more than he is asking.
http://www.sracing.com/Store/FV_Stuff/fv_book.htm

ChrisZ

[Amon]

Chris,

Jim's book is very useful! I just referred to it for electrical issue's
and even after having my copy for close to 12 yrs, it remains a
good reference point and reminder for things forgotten.

Mark

[Speed Sport Engineering]

People keep referring to "Speedsports" like there is some factory cranking them out. As far as I know, and I think Mike recently confirmed, there is only one complete AM-5, plus a few spares parts and pieces.

As of right now, there is only 1 of the AM-5's, which is the one I'm driving. However, we have started to make more, and will finish more when a few people step up and commit to them. There is one customer anxiously waiting for one, but we will not finish them unless at least 2 more agree to purchase. But they are available under those terms.

Good luck to everyone at the runoffs this year. I think it's going to be a much different race this time....

[Bill Bonow]

A really good car with potential (this model has lead at the Runoffs and won plenty of Nationals), the Campbell Motorsport XTC-41 Chris listed in post # 11 is a great bargin. It is the last kit Larry sold and it has three weekend on it from brand new. Read the listing, it has all the right stuff (LRE, Penske, Roxannes, ect) and only needs one of those fancy $9k motors (see Erik) to put it up front at the Runoffs.

Find it here: http://www.sracing.com/ForSale/forsale.htm 8th listing from the top. For $6,900 OBO is a steal. The car cost Jim/Greg Schings a whole bunch more than that to put it together.

More info on the car, go here: http://campbellmotorsport.com/XTC41FormulaVee.aspx

[VDF1]

If you're in CT, I would recommend talking to Steve Pastore

http://www.veesportracing.com/index.htm

[veefan]

Hey vdrcr,

If your in Connecticut head over to Limerock Saturday morning. The NARRC runoff race will take place and it will include a good group of Vee's. The Vee's are in group 3 and should run around 10-11 am

You'll be able to check out a lot of different cars. Adams Aero, Caldwell/D-13, Protoform-P2, Predator, BRD, Citation, Lynx-B AND… A VDF, the same car that just won the [SIZE=-1]2010 SCCA Championship![/SIZE]

[vdrcr]

bumming that i can't make the runoffs this weekend. looks like nice weather, i like the rain...

[Campbell Motorsport]

If you're in CT, I would recommend talking to Steve Pastore

http://www.veesportracing.com/index.htm

I agree with Tom, talk to Steve. He is a good guy, has a wealth of FV knowledge, and can help get you going in the right direction. By working with someone like Steve you can learn a lot faster and avoid many of mistakes you will make without the guidence an experienced FV guy.

Larry Campbell

[veefan]

"By working with someone like Steve you can learn a lot faster and avoid many of mistakes"

Words well spoken, Steve should be at the race this weekend,

[vdrcr]

i did get to speak with steve.
seems like a great guy and an incredible resource. i will definitely be speaking with him more if/when i get a vee!

[davidb]

30k chassis; 9K engines-- for a vee?! Often wondered why the class died in Socal. Now I get it!