Look over there

[Purple Frog]

I just realized i posted pictures of FV, F/PA/CF, FS, FT, F1600, CF, yadda, yadda, yadda... on the thread labeld FC at NJMP. Got there to see your assorted pictures. Sorry...

[PaulT]

Ahh, the REAL formula B.

Paul

[VehDyn]

You gotta love the look of those cars. Cigar shape with big ass tires. Timeless...

I showed a picture of one of these types of cars from a magazine to my 3 year old son and his comment was "Daddy, I want one of these for Christmas." Me too, buddy.

[dereklola]

It just so happens they are also one of the most popular classes in vintage racing right now - I wonder why? Next stop - Lime Rock Park on Labor Day weekend, then Watkins Gen the weekend after. Be there!

[provamo]

dang beautiful cars bulit by men not committee decreed spec cars

[DanW]

The BT-21 brings back great memories of lifting the car off the milk crate stands with 6 guys, loading it on a homebuild ramp of perforated landing strip up the back of an ugly green Ford 1 ton pickup and taking it out to Riverside Raceway for a Cal Club event.

I have a pencil sketch of it hanging in my garage. The owner is still one of my best friends.

Regards,
Dan

[Racinggrl1]

I had the "pleasure" of being passed by those two cars at NJMP during practice.. GOD they go FAST. and they looked great! I know the team that raced them and they are a bunch of great guys! Sweet looking racecars.... my Lola aspires....

[Stan Clayton]

You can read the original FB rules here: Vintage FB Rules

Oh, and you modern FB guys...if you want to lose the wings, the rules can be changed...

[VehDyn]

The BT-21 brings back great memories of lifting the car off the milk crate stands with 6 guys, loading it on a homebuild ramp of perforated landing strip up the back of an ugly green Ford 1 ton pickup and taking it out to Riverside Raceway for a Cal Club event.

I have a pencil sketch of it hanging in my garage. The owner is still one of my best friends.

Regards,
Dan

I love seeing those pictures of racing back in teh day. Where there's a guy standing beside his Lola T70 Can Am on an open trailer pulled behind a van. Now its Toters and semis.

[Jnovak]

Stan, that is what the SCCA needs! BIG TIRES, LOTS OF POWER & NO DOWNFORCE. WHAT RACING IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[dereklola]

Jay - that's what F1 needs. And Indy car. Where did we go wrong?

Back to vintage FB - if anyone is seriously interested drop me an email - I can put you in touch with several of the serious runners from the pointy end.

Jay (again) - I was supposed to get in touch wasn't I? Sorry - been chasing electrons - will be in touch soon - winter project. Derek.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, that is what the SCCA needs! BIG TIRES, LOTS OF POWER & NO DOWNFORCE. WHAT RACING IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

I've been thinking about it a lot, Jay, and setting aside F1 and Indycar, IMO SCCA has too many winged formula classes compared to its wingless classes:

FA
FB
FC
FE
FM

versus...

F5
FF
FV

Or perhaps I should say that to me the formula classes are "unbalanced" between winged and wingless. Wingless cars are being treated as the bottom end of the formula category, since all of them are slower than any winged class. I think they need a top class within their sub-category. They need a fast class that competes with FA for weight-to-power, but without the wings and down force.

Just as the other categories have clearly top classes that broadly outstrip the lesser classes within that category, I think the wingless formula classes need one as well.

But I don't have a dog in this fight. If the FB guys want to retain their wings, so be it. I for one, though, would like to see them shift their philosophy.

[Purple Frog]

Stan,

It could be done easily and fairly inexpensive. The FC zetec in '05 Cooper Series spec without wings, 8s and 10s, diffuser ends at rear axle C/L....

170+ hp, 1170 lb with driver...

how do you say... mechanical grip?

[provamo]

pardon me but since when does a diffuser provide mechanical grip?

anyway TOO many classes already!

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,

It could be done easily and fairly inexpensive. The FC zetec in '05 Cooper Series spec without wings, 8s and 10s, diffuser ends at rear axle C/L....

170+ hp, 1170 lb with driver...

how do you say... mechanical grip?

Good point, Mike. A top wingless class could be made from any of the current classes, though I suspect we all agree that it should feature fat tires and sufficient power to get stupid...

That doesn't tie us blindly to the past, though. So in my mind, there is no reason it could not be one of either 1.6 - 2 liter car engines or 1 liter bike motors. The objective is to get something close to 200 hp in a light car with naturally low down force and fat tires.

BTW, FA is the only winged class I am aware of that does not "require" wings. Hmm...

[Stan Clayton]

anyway TOO many classes already!

Setting aside this argument, I think Jay and I were talking about converting an existing class, not creating a new one.

[Jnovak]

Setting aside this argument, I think Jay and I were talking about converting an existing class, not creating a new one.

Correct Stan. IMHO we need a big HP, no wing, no tunnels etc formula class. The way aero technology has changed in the last 10 to 20 years is amazing & does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the racing. All the aero stuff does is make the technology MORE IMPORTANT than the driver.

Look at FF & FV - 2 of the best subscribed classes in the SCCA with some of the best racing period. I think FA, FC or FB would be perfect classes but I do not see anyway that the existing racers would go for it.


I say let's go for it & try to make something happen. Here is a starter:

• 200 hp minimum, more is better.
• No wings, or any kind of ground effects. This would actually be easy to define the rules.
• Big tires & wheels. Minimum 8" & 10"
• Light weight - appropriate for the class.

Let's do it.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Wren]

That doesn't tie us blindly to the past, though. So in my mind, there is no reason it could not be one of either 1.6 - 2 liter car engines or 1 liter bike motors. The objective is to get something close to 200 hp in a light car with naturally low down force and fat tires.

175mph in a straight line in a tube frame chassis sounds interesting. You go first.

[Stan Clayton]

175mph in a straight line in a tube frame chassis sounds interesting. You go first.

If you put FA tires on Brandon's car and remove its wings, will it do 175 mph? I could be wrong, but don't think it'll do it.

What I had in mind is a supreme mechanical grip car suitable for club racing. NOT a wingless Atlantic. (Come to think of it, though, I doubt a wingless FA could do 175.)

[RussMcB]

This is a fun topic to think about. Lately I've also been thinking wings don't really add much value to club racing. The thought of driving a car that can easily do 4 wheel drifts sounds great.

Hmm. I might be inclined to wish for narrow tires rather than wide. Maybe comprimise and let them be wide (for looks) but rock hard with minimal grip. :-).

I don't know if this is feasible, but could you do it so tubs are somewhat open? Tube frames are easy to build and repair. Tubs are stiffer/safer. Can you allow both and let each racer decide?

[Stan Clayton]

I don't know if this is feasible, but could you do it so tubs are somewhat open? Tube frames are easy to build and repair. Tubs are stiffer/safer. Can you allow both and let each racer decide?

Why not? In FA tubs are allowed with a 25 lbs weight penalty.

Besides, the original FB appears to have permitted tubs, as I don't see any chassis restrictions. Open question as to whether there were any, though...

[Rick Kirchner]

Tui BH3 SV on Autocross rubber

SCHWEET!

[Jnovak]

Tui BH3 SV on Autocross rubber

SCHWEET!

Thats the idea. Needs more power though.