F1000 Builder or a thorn?

[Rennie Clayton]

Gotcha. Thanks, you guys are really helpful and informative, albeit a bit overwhelming for me at this point!

It gets easier - take it from a guy who cut his teeth running Pony / Factory Stock and the like on local dirt and pavement bullrings in the Midwest. Lots of seat time in stockers and sprints. More recently I'm an occasional FA pilot who's enjoyed some success with it.

It should be noted, however, that deep expertise in these kinds of engineering disciplines is pretty common 'round these parts, and that's what leads them to be able to say with some degree of certainty that the car posted by MFI is going to be significantly off the pace of a competitive F1000 car. It's not a dig against the amount of work he's put in - anybody who's done a floor-up build of a car knows it's not easy. But if you don't have a deep understanding of the engineering behind the how's & why's, it's going to be very difficult to design your own mousetrap from scratch and expect to be competitive with the "big boys".

This is entirely different from buying an existing car which has been properly designed from the beginning and learning how to make it go fast, mind you... though that part is difficult enough!


Cheers,
Rennie

[R. Pare]

Rennie is correct - to the trained eye (and even to the semi-trained eyes in most cases) it is easy to spot things that will work, and things that won't. Every designer has had to start somewhere, and just about every designer has made design mistakes that he/she later thought "What the hell was I thinking about?"

Every (or just about every) designer has also run across someone who thinks their new design is the latest and greatest, when one glance tells you exactly the opposite. Unfortunately, this design is one of them.

I think most of us applaud the thought of someone providing a low cost car. Where the friction come is when the designer insists that an obviously sub-par machine is going to compete with the standards of the class - it's hard enough even for the highly experienced designers to come up with a car that will match what is out there and do it for anything less than $45-65k, never mind $16k!

MININDY : Get the car finished and out there running laps. If your attitude changes, you'll be surprised just how much support you will get.

[coletrickle]

Hard to tell from the pics, but it certainly looks like the front geometric roll center is above ground by a fair margin.

I thought that same thing. Looks like it rolls much like a stock car.

[FWSchroeder]

MININDY : Get the car finished and out there running laps. If your attitude changes, you'll be surprised just how much support you will get.

[peat]

First at all, I am relatively new arround here, I am from another country, my english is not very good (sorry guys for all my mistakes) but I try to do my best (I am learning a lot here, about english and motorsport, thank you guys) and I am newbie in FB and this is one of the best forums I´ve ever been registered. People here are polite, helpful, always ready to help... (that´s my experience) the environment is very nice, it looks like a big family.

Talking about the matter, in motorsport there are always trade-offs in design, but only one is unreacheable cheap-competitiveness.

You are in a stablished category where builders invest a lot of money on design, develop and build their racecars, if you want to be close to them...you will need at least the same or near, it will be easier to create a new category than to design a low cost car that can compite and win cars that cost double or triple of your car.

[R. Pare]

peat:

And that is an issue that just about every manufacturer faces: Do I make an inexpensive car that is off the pace, or an expensive car that can compete with everything else out there?

Unfortunately, in any well developed class, inexpensive and competitive are diametrically opposed to each other. To make it even worse, if a certain car is always 1+ seconds off the pace, it may take a few thousand $$ to change the offending design items or components to get that car up to snuff, and that is ONLY if the basic design is pretty close to start.

If a car is further off the pace than 1+ seconds, the task may be hopeless without almost starting all over again from scratch.

PS - nothing wrong with your written English!

[Lee Stohr]

I think a smart guy could build a competitive, one-off, inexpensive F1000. If you could do your own fiberglass work, welding, make fabricated uprights instead of machined, etc.
The car is only one small part of winning a major race. You need a driver of the caliber of Nicky Coello, Justin Pritchard, etc. You need a mechanic who can keep everything working, every session. You need someone who can tune the thing.
Lot's of time, lot's of work, always more money than you think.
Go for it !

[Mark_Silverberg]

The other factor that works against a slightly off the pace but inexpensive new car is the rapid depreciation of new race cars and the front end of the grid. In many cases the best option for some one who is willing not be at the front of the grid is to find a 3-5 year old car (in classes where new cars are being built) This could typically be found at about 60%% or less of new price. Many running at the front think they need the latest car - an some, in fact, do need that car. Given that the used car often comes with an established set up and technical assistance - it tends to make a one off or unknown new car less appealing - even if at a comparable cost to the used car.

[jcolegrove]

MFI,

Have you considered building a chassis for Formula 500 / Formula 600?

Both are much simpler designs that the FB class. They are actually the same chassis but one has a 500cc snowmobile 2 stroke and the other has a 600cc motorcycle engine.

Both chassis feature live axles. I think the live axle would probably kill you in FB. I have a formula 500 autocross car and they will push like an MF'er if you don't spend a lot of time countering the push.

I think you'd have a lot more success in F500 than in FB. I think the current crop of engineers designing FB's have set the bar incredibly high with the amount of suspension development, aero development, etc... making things very, very difficult for someone to build a competitive car without the knowledge, skills, and experience possessed by those very smart individuals.


So I'd urge you to check out Formula 500. The class is not currently dominated by the same types of manufacturers you find in FB. Most of the chassis builders are not engineers by trade, and one off homebuilt cars have been highly successful.
http://eformulacarnews.com/forum.php...cef1234dc7fdda

that's our hangout. Plenty of pictures of chassis there, and you can download the GCR.

[zexel]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Formu...item1c1705b401

[Brands]

I was wondering about this car just the other day. I bet all the naysayers will be eating humble pie now...............

[Rennie Clayton]

Pic of the car in question. Giggity!