First of many questions... differences in classes?

[00GT]

I'm simply looking for a hobby, I would enjoy racing between 5 and 10 weekends a year. I've always been very interested in cars and racing but I'm coming more from a drag racing background. This would be my first time in a open wheel type car other than the local Malibu Grand Prix, which I love, but the cars only go about 60 mph. Again is is purely for fun, I'm not looking for more than friendly local competition, I'm not even really interested in racing regionally anytime soon.

Also, I have to consider that I'm a big guy at 6'2 235# I have to be realistic about fitting in a car, for example I don't fit in many sports cars but usually due to head room, atleast that won't be an issue.

My overall time frame is pretty long I would like to make my all my decisions as far as which car to buy in the next 6 months then make my purchase in the following 6 months and be ready for racing by about this time next year. For some that may seem like a very long time, but I'm just one of those people who like to get all the information they can before jumping in.

Last thing and this is very important to me, I'm looking to race in a class that isn't all about money. I would welcome heavy restrictions about modifications so that it's more about skill than money, this is one of the reasons I'm losing interest in drag racing as it seems it's getting to a point of the most money wins.

I am very confused about the different Classes of Formula racing, this is what I've gathered please correct me or add any important points I've missed.

Formula Ford - 1600cc ford engine, no wings/spoilers, and very narrow tires.
Club Formula Ford - same limits but older cars (pre-1992, I think).
FF2000 (ZETEC) - I don't know much about this class except, 2.0 l Ford Zetec engine, and quite expensive.
F2000 - I don't understand the difference between this and FC, except maybe it's the same as FC but without Wings???
Formula Continental - 2.0l Ford Engines, wider tires, and Wings. Not clear if all years can complete or only newer cars?
Club Formula Continental - Same as FC except pre-1992? This is the class I think I'm most interested in.

Formula Alantic, Formula Mazda, Formula Vee - I understand these classes exist, but I'm a Ford guy, so they really don't interest me.

So how far off am I, and what did I miss?

Also out of the classes outlined above which if any would use the same chassis, just with different engine, body, and wing configurations?

Thanks,
Doug

[Tom Johnson]

Hi Doug, and welcome to the lunacy. Don't mind the epithet our neato webmasters have attached to me, occasionally I'll give a straight answer.

IMHO, before you get in a big car, try karting. You'll have all the fun of the full size car at 1/10th the cost, work, and aggravation. And you'll get in shape fairly quick. Start at a local roadracing track with a Yamaha (low cost and maintenance) and see if you have the aptitude, attitude, and drive to succeed. I don't recommend shifters for somebody with limited experience, they are really high-spirited if you haven't seriously raced before.

If the karts agree with you, get attached to a local open wheel guy to crew for, and get a feel for the different classes and the plusses and minusses of each. Then pick a class and come on out.

PS Don't automatically assume that headroom is no issue in an open-wheel car. If you are long in the torso your head will violate one of the obscure rules regarding rollover clearance. No joke. I know this because I'm a skinny 6'5" and will only fit legally in a formula car because I'm all leg. A friend of mine who is 2" shorter but long in the body couldn't pass rollover clearance even not wearing a helmet!!

[00GT]

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. I've got to tell you I did some very quick research on Karts and although I'm sure I would get whooped in one by anyone with experience, from what I saw they seem a little small and slow. The largest I saw was a 125cc with a top speed of about 80mph. Maybe I should tell you a little more about myself and you tell me if you think I should still consider that route. I'm 30 years old and have had fast cars all my life, my current weekend car is a 500HP 2000 Mustang GT with a Vortech Supercharger running in the 11s. I've also own several motorcycles from CR125 dirtbikes to CBR900RRs, and as a teenager I raced dirttrack in a old Camaro with a Chevy 350. I'm just not sure a 125CC - 80mph kart would get my heart pounding so to speak. But I've been wrong before (more than once) so what do you think?

Also, what you mentioned about rollover clearance might be a big issue. I am rather long in the torso, and have short legs for my height. I fit in the Mustang, but not newer F-bodies as an example. Even some SUVs with a sunroof is out. Do you know what the maximum height from the top of the seat to the top of the head (with helmet) would be to be legal?

I like the idea of crewing for someone to get a feel for the different classes, I will work on finding someone in Houston who needs some help.

Thanks and let me know what you think about my concerns with Kart racing.

Thanks,
Doug

[Tom Johnson]

I think you might be surprised what a kart would do for you. 80 MPH might not seem like much, but do it 3" from somebody else' wheel and 3/4" off the ground. Now consider that you'll need to be in every bit the shape you need to be for Moto-X, and you'll get this workout in 100+ degree heat (assuming y'all will be doing it somewhere near Houston ).

With your background you may be able to jump in a shifter, but be prepared for a challenge. I've run Continental for a couple of years on and off and came out of USAC - type Midgets (which are pretty ill-tempered in their own right), and I still think the hardest thing to drive is the shifter.

See if you can find a local track where one of the guys will let you drive a kart (they're always trying to hook new guys) and take a few laps. If you don't come back with a helluva grin on your face then you have a stiffer constitution than me!

BTW, guess what most of the CART and F1 guys drive to keep in shape and hone their skills...

[kgjevre]

If you look under the Resources on this site and then open the Rulebooks FC Section B (incl. F2000) you will see that Formula Continental is "Combination of ex-Formula C, Formula Super Vee (air cooled), Formula 2000."

One of the reasons I bought a 95 Van Diemen is that I could fit in it, and I am 6' 2.5" and 210#. As far as I know the 91-95 VD's are all about the same size, while the 96 & (early?) 97 VD's are smaller, and the 98's are huge, but then you seemed to be more interested in a CFC.

It sounds like I have the same approach to racing that you have, i.e. mainly just to have some fun. Quite a while back I had a KT100 kart that I did practice days with and then eventually sold. More recently I decided to try a 125 shifter kart out to see what it was like, so I took a shifter kart clinic with a kart school. It was well worth the $250 or so to get an idea about its performance, and it is not for nothing that many of the CART and IRL drivers drive 125 shifter karts for fun/practice, so don’t dismiss them without trying one.

[BrooksHall]

On road courses we hit 120 in the 125's and 140+ in the IC/E 250's. The part that is difficult in driving a shifter is the shifting. On a sprint track you are always shifting these things. They are very busy, the braking is awsome as is the corning power of these things. I got bored with the 100cc stuff after about two outings but the shifters still in the garage.

As for buying an FC I say go for it. I know everyone is going to dissagree with me but I say do it and learn as you go. You've been involved in racing you get the idea so just do it. You may not go out and do a full season your first year but do some regional racing and learn the game and go have some fun.

[size="1"][ November 20, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[00GT]

Thanks for all the info. I promise to atleast try a kart before making my decision on which class to go for.

As far as Formula goes, I think I'm starting to understand this. FC includes F2000 (but only 1993 or newer), but F2000 is exclusively Ford 2 liter engines. Is there a Club F2000 or only a Club FC? Also what are the years for Club and for F2000 and FC? From what I read it seems F2000 is 1983 and newer and FC is 1993 and newer? So FC does not include F2000 cars made before 1993? Wow, that's pretty confusing.

Maybe this is easier... let just say I bought an 1989 or 90 2.0 l Ford powered open wheel car with wings, what could I run in?

Thanks again for all the info.
Doug

[RussMcB]

Originally posted by 00GT:
Thanks for all the info. I promise to atleast try a kart before making my decision on which class to go for.

As far as Formula goes, I think I'm starting to understand this. FC includes F2000 (but only 1993 or newer), but F2000 is exclusively Ford 2 liter engines. Is there a Club F2000 or only a Club FC? Also what are the years for Club and for F2000 and FC? From what I read it seems F2000 is 1983 and newer and FC is 1993 and newer? So FC does not include F2000 cars made before 1993? Wow, that's pretty confusing.

Maybe this is easier... let just say I bought an 1989 or 90 2.0 l Ford powered open wheel car with wings, what could I run in?

Thanks again for all the info.
Doug

You're getting closer.

Formula Continental is an SCCA Club Racing class (SCCA Club Racing = amatuers. There is an SCCA Pro organization also, with separate rules and races). The Club Racing FC class includes a few different types of cars. When you go to an SCCA Club Racing race, almost all of the FC cars are FF2000 cars with 2 liter (Pinto?) engines. If you look at a rule book you will see that other cars can run in FC also: air-cooled supervees, and 1100cc formula cars come to mind, but it is rare to see one of these other configurations. There are a bunch of rules about the cars (maximum this and that). Car builders like Van Dieman build cars to fit within the rules.

The above is true for both National and Regional races in SCCA. For some areas of the country, Club FC has been adopted as a separate class. It is older cars that would not be competitve against newer FC cars. I'm not sure exactly what the rules are, but it's something like: 1990 and older, must have outboard suspension on one end? (Someone may correct me, I'm not sure about this).

There is also Pro (SCCA?) F2000 class. They run the newer F2000 chassis with a more powerful Zetec engine rather than the Pinto motor. These cars are allowed to run in SCCA Club races, but not in the FC class. They run in the next higher class, Formula Atlantic.

Regarding your last question. If your "1989 or 90 2.0 l Ford powered open wheel car with wings" fits ALL of the FC rules, you can run it in the class. Keep in mind that there are very many, very restrictive rules in the rule book for that class, so it is not simply a matter of plugging in any 2 l Forb motor into any open wheel chassis.

Hope this helps.

Russ

[size="1"][ November 21, 2002, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: RussMcB ][/size]

[Purple Frog]

An 89 or 90 would also qualify as a CFC in the modern Divisions that have that class.

One year is a very sensible timeline. The best thing you have done so far is to find this site. The next best thing to do is to get a humongous bag of popcorn and start reading the archives of posts on this site that go back for two years. There is info posted here that took the old timers many many seasons to learn the hard way.

FV - Formula car based on pre-65 VW parts, skinny tyres, no wings, 50+ HP.
F500 - Big kart-like formula, rubber bushing suspension, rotax type motor, nearly as fast as FF, some tracks may be even faster. Arguably safer than a kart.
FF - 1600 Kent motors, not so small tires, no wings, learn a lot about mechanical grip, 110+ HP.
CF - older FF with outboard springs and shocks.
FC - For the most part 2L pinto engines, wings, a bit wider tires, aero downforce plays a real role, 140+ HP, usually push rod suspensions.
CFC - FCs that are 1990 and before. Usually have older rocker arm suspensions.
FM - ROBUST winged formula cars powered by sealed rotary, bigger tyres, 160+ HP.
FF2000 - Used to be pro series of pinto FCs in US.
USF2000 - Current pro series in US with FC type chassis and Zetec sealed motors, slightly bigger tires, 168+ HP.
FA - Yeehaw! Bring your Daddy's and Granddaddy's wallets. BIG tires, massive downforce, Fastest SCCA formula class. Both a pro and club class.

OBTW, there is no bad class. Each has it's plusses and minuses. Most of us on this site like wings. It would make an interesting book to describe the types that drive in these different classes.

[Greg S.]

May have missed this in the replies. CFC is a Regional only class and is not available in a National race. But, CFC cars by definition are also legal in FC and may compete in FC at any time. (I think I got that right)

If you want to look at spec cars, you should consider Formula Mazdah, Spec Racer Ford, or even the new spec car from SCCA.

Greg
95 Citation SF

[00GT]

Thank you for all the replies, I'm finally starting to get an understanding of this.

One more question comes to mind. If all F2000 cars (non-pro Zetec) have the same 2.0l Ford (Pinto) engine, what would make the older cars (80s - early 90s) not be competitive with the newer cars (early 90s - present)? I'm sure there have been improvements over the years but wouldn't they have similar weight/hp ratios, chassis design, etc?

Purple Frog - Thanks for the tip about reading every post on this site, it's going to take me a while but I'm working on it.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Tom Johnson]

There are several things that separate them:

1) Older cars are "rocker" (ie springs/shocks are actuated by a cantilever). New cars are pushrod, which, for lack of a better term, means that the connection between the wheel and the spring is more solid. This means adjusting springs/shocks has a much more impact on the handling of the car.

2) Older cars may be heavier than new.

3) Older cars have more aero drag.

4) Older cars tend to have less stiff chassis

[Purple Frog]

When you read all those posts, you can skip mine and save a lot of time... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Broad generalization about the differences in pinto FC cars to follow.

The 1980's chassis for the most part are rocker arm cars. Some exceptions do exist, but on the whole the Reynards, Swifts, and VDs of that era were rocker cars. But if you look, you will even find Crossle with pull rods.

The early 1990's brought on the the pushrod cars. Notable exceptions are the 1990 Swift, which is half and half, and the Reynards with marched on into the early 90's with the same basic setup as their '87 model.

You'll read a lot about '90-'95 VDs. Which are very close in chassis details, and a lot of interchangable pieces. Thus many were updated to 1995 VD specs. In today's standard they were short WB cars, except for those that Tom Johnson modified (maybe 2). Most of the '90 -'95 VDs were argued to suffer a bit in that the engine compartment was a bit flexible when compared to newer stiffer chassis. Whether the average guy could tell... maybe, maybe not.

1996 saw VD come out with a newer design that incorporated a mono-shock front suspension. Remember that at that time the pro series was doing a lot of laps on smooth ovals, and mono-shock setup can be argued to be rather good on ovals. A lot of road racers didn't fall in love with the mono-shock. Some even converted '96's to two front shocks. Most Tattus are mono-shock in the front. Note that many a regional race in 2002 was won by a '96 model car.

I understand that the '97 VD is a lot like the '96, but shocks for each corner. Longer WB?

Meanwhile in the mid-'90s other chassis were also doing well such as Carbir, Tattus, Citation,... Each with it's merits. But those non-VD builders sold fairly small numbers. VD sold higher numbers and sort of, kind of became a defacto standard. Although you will see that the Citation, for instance, has a good number of SCCA national championships, when compared to the volume sold. I degress.

In 1998, VD introduced their newest chassis, and for the most point it has not changed since then. There have been track changes, and wing changes, etc. But a '98 VD can be fitted for the most part to 2002 specs.

The pro-series through 2001 allowed any chassis running the pinto motor. In 2002 the pros moved to the Zetec powerplant in it's sealed configuration as supplied by Quicksilver. I think, not sure, but all 2002 pro series cars were some flavor of '98 - '02 VD with Zetec motors.

In 2003, the pro cars will be VD only, using spec shocks, wings, motor, undertray, wider wheels, etc. It is still possible to update a '00 VD to 2003 pro specs.

So... to answer the question. In SCCA there are basically three loosly defined catagories of FCs.

1. Cars homolagated in 1990 or before. In many divisions they are allowed to compete in a regional only CFC class. You can still enter them as FC in regional or national races. e.g. in 2000 I entered a 1984 Reynard in the June Sprints, no problem (as long as I ran the oversized mirrors [img]redface.gif[/img] )
These CFC cars are considerably less aero than newer designs, and in many cases designed to run softer springs than modern cars. Hence, except in rare situations, or the rain, they are not competitive with newer cars. But, driven right, one can still average 100 mph on fast tracks, so don't think they are slugs.

2. Cars from 1990 through 1996. In the SCCA these are FC only cars at this time. They are not as aero as the even newer cars, and usually have shorter WB. Plenty fast, but usually in equal situations the '97 and newer cars will prevail. Not to say that a '93 Swift in the right hands can't run at the front, it's just that there are not a lot of '93 Swifts in the right hands. Also '95 Citations with '98 upgrades can win championships... There is some growing thought that maybe a regional sub-class will develop for these cars, for they fall in no-man's land at the moment... not allowed in CFC, can't beat a 2001.

3. Cars from '97 up to 2002 are the newest, sleekest, widest, stiffest... of the breed. The fastest FCs.

If a strong CFC car can turn a 1:30 lap, then a great mid-'90s car will probably turn a 1:27, and the newest pinto cars will turn a 1:25. A pro Zetec car will turn a 1:19. Obviously this is purely hypothetical, but a rough example. Results may vary.

Confused yet?

There are some pre-1990 motorcycle powered FC cars, and some old supervees allowed in FC, but let's not go there.

[size="1"][ November 22, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]

[andyllc]

Listen to Frog. And also, if you are budget conscious then I really would consider either a 125 shifter or a CFC. I came from karting and I promise you that even an Atlantic does not feel as fast as a kart. There is no need to worry about being too tall for karting (by a rules standpoint) and there are karts that have what are called "extended front porches" that allow the pedals to be further away than most karts so that will help your size. If you insist on buying a formula car then that is all good too but I think you will find your best "bang for buck" with a CFC. You will be on such a learning curve that having a new car won't really make much difference and it will be cheaper for you to get into the sport with a CFC than a newer (mid-90's) car. Then after you spend time learning the car (a year or more depending on how fast you learn) you can buy a newer car as you are ready for it. Just my .02