Smallest engine

[fastkars52]

I'm told that the Yamaha 600 has the smallest footprint (weight and size) for this class. Is this true? Is it also just as powerful as the other 600's?

[lancer360]

Hmm, I'm not sure. Most of us doing conversion are going with the Suzuki. I have a '09 GSXR in mine. I do know of one guy who went with the Yamaha, Rick Goodwin. He is only selling complete cars and I don't know if he has sold one yet. The GSXR is has a pretty small footprint and is more upright I believe then the Honda which helps with packaging. I don't think anyone has gone with the Kawasaki. Only a few of us are on apexspeed. Most of the F500/F600 crowd hangs out at www.eformulacarnews.com.

Are you building from scratch or doing a conversion?

[fastkars52]

I have an '89 Red Devil to convert as a test mule. My next concern after engine size is where to fit a clutch pedal. How/where did you fit yours?

[lancer360]

I have a KBS Mk.7 and we fit all three pedals in the foot box. Believe it or not, the KBS foot box is the same width as the foot box on a FE car so it is possible. Get all three pedals and your racing shoes and lay them out to see how it fits best. The clutch and gas pedal are very narrow, maybe 1" wide in my car.

[fastkars52]

I'll try what you suggested but I think I'm going to have to get somewhat creative as I have wide feet.

[fastkars52]

Do you have any pics of your car with the body off that you'd be willing to share? Have you raced your car as yet? How'd it do against the two-smokers?

[iamuwere]

You need narrow and small driving shoes.
I wear a 14 and have lots of room in a KBS chassis--enough for the clutch if I needed one.

i now drive an FE and have plenty of room for both left and right foot braking. I wear a relatively narrow shoe in a size 12 to ensure there is enough room. I don't walk far in them but they are fine to drive.

[lancer360]

Shoot me a PM with your email address and I can send you a few photos of my footbox area.

I am very much a rookie and first ran the car at my drivers school in February at Roebling Road. Total I have 32 sessions on the car now including 2 time trials and 3 races. I have had a few issues with the car, but they have been addressed. Honestly I pretty darn happy that there have been so few issues. Knowing my car was the prototype for Jay Novak to develop his conversion kit I figured I would have a few bugs to work out.

Here is a lap of CMP in my car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzCSM7T3YFE

[fastkars52]

I've seen that video...sounds just like a racing car! Size 14 shoe! Were you a defensive end for the Panthers before becoming a race car driver? Mine's only a 10 but it's almost as wide. :-) I'm really bad with acronym's so please tell me what a PM and a FE are. What kind of bugs?

Bruce
fastkars52@yahoo.com

[Purple Frog]

PM = Private Message. Click on Lancers name in one of his posts and you'll be prompted as to how to send him a PM.

FE = Formula E

[godwinmt]

Consider running a clutch on your actual shifter lever. i'm pulling parts off of a full donor bike for mine and will actually be using most of the right handlebar + brake master cylinder for my clutch as it is hydraulic. The clutch will be mounted with the handlebar parallel to the ground on the left hand side and will be welded to a section of pipe at a 90. That will go down and attach to the chassis at a pivot and a push/pull cable from mcmaster will provide a linkage inbetween it and the shifter pivot/drum. If you have a cable clutch, you can mount it vertically vs the horizontal.

[lancer360]

I considered doing a hand clutch of some kind and ultimately decided against it. I figured when things go wrong, you are going to be very busy with your hands on the steering wheel. That was not the time that I wanted to take a hand off the steering wheel to grab the clutch. Plus most of us have probably been trained to go two feet in once you lose control. If you run a hand clutch you will have to retrain yourself. There is generally room in the footbox as many F500's had room for a dead pedal for the left foot so you didn't accidentally drag the brake with it. Center the brake pedal in the footbox and you should have room for a narrow gas and clutch pedal on either side. Both my clutch and gas pedal are cable operated.

[godwinmt]

the cable clutch etc. makes it pretty easy then. If you need a source for cables (throttle/clutch/push pull for shifter) McMaster Carr is about the cheapest I've found. Shipping is very quick with them as well. I have to use a hand clutch with mine as there really isn't enough room in the well for a clutch. The brake and throttle take up 90% of the well.

[Ananth K]

Guys,

Here is an alternative that I plan on using. It is a superkart part. The question is, will it work on a formula car where the steering angle often exceeds 180 degrees lock to lock, meaning the master cylinder reservoir would be upside down. I suppose this could be solved by using a closed master cylinder that does not have a reservoir (like those used in kart brakes).

[Wren]

Are the footboxes on these cars really that small that having room for a clutch pedal is that big of a problem?

I drove a Mysterian M2 FV that had about 10" IIRC between the frame rails for all three pedals and my feet, with the steering shaft passing through there also. I normally wear a size 14 shoe. I would squeeze my feet into size 11.5 and there was plenty of room for my feet and to operate all three pedals.

[lancer360]

No, most F500's do have the room in the foot box. However, we only need the clutch to get rolling in the paddock. After that the sequential gear box does not require a clutch. Once you are racing the only time you will need the clutch is if you spin. This will help save the motor, the starter, and keep the engine running. I use a paddle shifter behind the steering wheel so a hand clutch on the steering wheel is not an option for me.

[tedsimmons2]

[/IMG]Attachment 20435

[GBugg]

I had a hand clutch on my DSR, but swapped it over to a pedal ASAP. These motors/starters really don't like it when you spin. I decided it was easier to change the clutch than learn how to drive... In truth, Chris hit it on the head. It's tough to retrain yourself to react when you don't have time to think about it. For that same reason, I'm thinking I'll stay with a right hand shift lever for now.

I'm using an 07 GSXR for my KBS conversion, and borrowing ideas from Chris, Jay, and whoever else has a good idea! I think the MC engine is the best idea EVER for F500.

[ReynardF1000]

I put a 'blade' peddle in my F1000 for a clutch. This very narrow peddle operates a cable to the clutch actuator when needed and the rest of the time it's a left foot rest. I have to pull my leg back a little to use the narrow peddle when needed, but you don't need it once launched until you stop.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm thinking my F600 (not yet acquired---waiting for the rules to be ironed out and at least one other fast F5/F600 in SoPac to race against) will have left foot brake, right foot gas, paddle shift and a clutch handle on the wheel 90* to the paddles. Steering rack so 180* or less lock to lock.

That's the plan at this point anyway.

Re: engine packaging---should a dry sump be approved is there advantage to be gained by rotating the motor on it's axis to allow better cg, aero, airbox, exhaust packaging?

[Jnovak]

Daryl, we are hoping that dry sumps will not be needed & so far so good. Our GSXR package has never see less than 30 psi & that is when the revs are down in the corners. Alternative packages by rotating the engine causes chain package problems. You might not see this unless you are doing solid models like I am.

What engine will you use? Are you building a complete car? GO!!!!!

MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOU SEND A LETTER SUPPORTING THE 600cc MC PROPOSAL TO THE CRB. Go to www.crbscca.com for the form.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Ananth K]

Jay,

Isnt rotating the engine 180 degrees illegal in F500, and by extension, it would be in F600?

[Jnovak]

Ananth, I think Daryl is talking about tilting the engine not turning it around. I may have misinterpreted his post though.

Not certain how the CRB would interpret the engine placement rule.

Thanks ... Jay

[jim murphy]

Here is an example of why you need to push the clutch pedal in asap during a spin:

Dan McMahan was re-acquainting himself with a F600 this past weekend at Road Atlanta as he only drives about two times a year.
During the first session on Saturday morning Dan spun the car at turn #5 - while he was spinning around to the 180 degree position, he saw a FC just a few feet away with all four tires smoking trying desperately not to smack the F600. He momentarily forgot to put both feet in as the FC was a MAJOR distraction and rolled backward off the course clearing the way for the FC. Needless to say the starter was destroyed by going backwards with the clutch engaged and Dan had to sit there the rest of the session and then be flat towed back to the paddock. To add salt to the wound the Honda starter is a little tough to access under all the other stuff sitting on top of it and a couple of bloody knuckles later the starter was replaced. When taken apart, the rear part of the starter was nothing but metal fragments.
Note to self: always bring at least TWO extra starters to every race.

When you spin, both feet in.

Jim

[Daryl DeArman]

I raced CDCRA cars in the early 90's. They were 1250cc m/c powered cars on alcohol. Ran 1/4 and 3/8mi clay ovals. Lots of spins in that type of racing. Not many used a foot clutch. Mostly a hand clutch on the wheel or on the shift lever.

Most of the fragmented starters were a result of drivers thinking they could "save it", not because of slow reactions to get to the clutch.

I don't believe that where the clutch is located, within reason, is the issue. It is a matter of how soon the driver realizes that they better get to the clutch because they are going 'round.

Maybe a bendix style m/c starter should be allowed.

[jim murphy]

I raced CDCRA cars in the early 90's. They were 1250cc m/c powered cars on alcohol. Ran 1/4 and 3/8mi clay ovals. Lots of spins in that type of racing. Not many used a foot clutch. Mostly a hand clutch on the wheel or on the shift lever.

Most of the fragmented starters were a result of drivers thinking they could "save it", not because of slow reactions to get to the clutch.

I don't believe that where the clutch is located, within reason, is the issue. It is a matter of how soon the driver realizes that they better get to the clutch because they are going 'round.

Maybe a bendix style m/c starter should be allowed.

The question a lot of people will ask:

Does one exist for each MC maker and is it as cheap as the OEM starter?

Jim

[Wren]

The gsxr1000 starters don't react any better to spinning them 25,000 rpms backwards.

There is a starter saver available that lets you disengage the starter. Do the F600 rules allow that?

What kind of cornering loads does an F5/F6 produce? Not allowing drysumps seems like it could be a false economy.

[Ananth K]

Max. g should be in the 1.6 range. Drysumps are allowed as per the modified proposal.

[ReynardF1000]

I built a device that allows me to slide the starter out of harms way after the engine has started. I can slide the starter back in if needed from the cockpit. Use push-pull cables and good design to build yours.

[Daryl DeArman]

The question a lot of people will ask:

Does one exist for each MC maker and is it as cheap as the OEM starter?

Jim

I'm suggesting a non-OEM starter be considered to be allowed. Not mandatory...as to pricing, may not be as cheap as one OEM starter, but probably a bunch cheaper than the original and the replacement, not to mention the real cost of a DNF and labor to replace.

Just thinking out loud. There are quite a few MC's that have a bendix type starter stock...just don't think any of the 600 sportbikes utilize them.

[jim murphy]

What kind of cornering loads does an F5/F6 produce? Not allowing drysumps seems like it could be a false economy.

Clint McMahan (since last summer) and Chris Ross (since February) have been running F600's in the SE with absolutely NO oil starvation problems whatsoever. Chris's data logger has not recorded a single moment when the oil pressure has gone below 30 psi and Clint's low oil pressure light (30psi) has never come on in the 8+ race weekends. The dry sump was included as a back-up for future possibilities.
The only problems that we have had with the MC drivetrain have been due to human error - the MC has been rock steady reliable.

Jim

[lancer360]

I have blown one starter during a 100+mph spin in the kink at CMP. I have had a few other slower speed spins and they either have not posed a problem or I was quick enough on the clutch. The one at CMP was so violent and so quick it wouldn't have mattered if it was a hand clutch or a foot clutch. They do make starter savers for the 1000 engines, but I have yet to find one for the 600's. I'm sure with some talking to the manufacturers of the current starter savers we might be able to convince one to build one specific for the 600's once we start getting more of them on track. For now, I just carry a spare starter. You can generally pick them up off Ebay used for $50-$60 including shipping.

[ny_racer_xxx]

I have seen on some of the Microsprint sites, that they use a Yamaha R6 starter to replace the Suzuki and Honda starters. The only difference I can see from the fiche, is that the R6 has ball bearing on the armature shaft and the others are plain bushing... This might be enough not to explode a starter in a spin....

CR

[bpimm]

I modified the 1000 starter saver to fit my busa and it's hydraulically operated from the cockpit. Should be modifiable for the 600 also.

I have heard with the busa it not only destroys the starter it removes part of the block as well, I didn't want to take the chance with a hand clutch. the late 80's Red Devils have very narrow foot wells, mine has about 1/2" clearance with my driving shoes on, standard running shoes the soles hook on each other as they pass.

ReynardF1000 I put a 'blade' peddle in my F1000 for a clutch. This very narrow peddle operates a cable to the clutch actuator when needed and the rest of the time it's a left foot rest. I have to pull my leg back a little to use the narrow peddle when needed, but you don't need it once launched until you stop.

Do you have a pic of this pedal? it might be a solution for the narrow foot boxes like mine.

I'm still running the MC clutch lever outboard of the cockpit.

[jim murphy]

Another thought about the footbox clearance are the two down tubes that are above and on either side of the footbox. If your shoes touch these bars then bend them out of the way so that the inside edges are even with the sides of the footbox. We did this on the KBS Mk.5 and got more foot room.

Jim

[ADR]

The 89/90 Red Devil has a pretty small foot box area.

[jim murphy]

The footbox is on the other side of the pedals so please show this area. I suspect that
some welding in of bent tubing will open it up some.

Jim

[ADR]

Sorry only pics I had, car is long gone. Maybe the new owner will see this and add some pics.

[Cruzebabuze]

yes R6 is the smallest, I have both the r6 and gsxr and r6 is smaller. but I was able to fit the gsxr in a small red devil.