New to FF due to Honda

[Trhoades]

I was wondering if we could get a count of the number of new FF dueto the Honda engine..Those that bought a FF to convert asap or down the raod and those that are converting FC to FF...Thanks Todd

[Matt King]

I'm pretty sure my next car will be a Honda powered FF. Right now I'm on the fence about either buying a roller or a complete car to convert, but I'm keeping an eye out for the right opportunity. I figure in the next year or so the restrictor deal will get sorted out, there will be more kits and parts available, and if I'm really lucky, there might even be some converted cars on the market.

[gtomlinson]

I bought a Swift roller purely to convert to the Honda Fit.

I was looking for an open wheel formula car to replace my SRF. A Swift/Honda powered Formula F car was the perfect Fit for me....affordable, attractive and getting faster by the race. I would not have bought a Kent powered car because I prefer a more modern less troublesome engine. I grew up setting carb floats and points...I've come to except the "new fangled" electronic engine controls. It's just better...

[ric baribeault]

i bought a piper zetec and am in the process of converting to honda. it should be on the track in august at sonoma

[reidhazelton]

If the Fit becomes the engine to have, or has any perceive benefit to be competitive, I will be out of FF from what I see. so -1.

This is not sour grapes, nor a case of "I-am-taking-my-ball-and-going-home". I want to stay in the class. It is the best speed for the buck with the best tool (the car) available to teach me what I want to learn. I don't have a massive crush on the Kent either.

For all those with the fancy DB-6es and new VDs, the fit is good. For the little guy in the paddock with the 20 year old 92 VD, it is not. Here is my situation with the equipment I have.

When is the 92 VD kit available? Uh, yeah. Anyway. A 92 does not have the room for the intake of the Fit, without substantial modification the frame, if it is even structurally possible. So, if the Kent is disadvantaged (as the FC Pinto is now) or is perceived to be, what are my options?

1. Run it as is and be at a disadvantage (who knows how great or if any) and suck it up.

2. Sell the car and buy a newer car. If I had the money I would have bought a newer car to begin with. What could I get for the fastest monoshock in the country? $18k with insane amount of spares maybe. What can I get for that which is equally competatve...nothing, well nothing short of $25K-30K. What is a Kent powered FF worth now that the Fit is here? Less. What is an amazing Farley Kent worth now? Less.

3. Convert my 92. Well, there are many problems there. Most of all, I don't have $12k (an optimistic figure) to change over a car that is barely even worth that. That alone makes it zero chance of happening. That is nearly twice my average annual budget. Second, I highly doubt a Fit can even work in a 92 with how the rear frame is laid out, or at the least major modification. More $$$$$.

4. Sell the car, and go to a different class or even Club? Dunno to what, FC certainly isn't affordable. FE is not much cheaper. FV, not interested in 40 hp.

In the beginning I was in favor of this option as it was presented, as an alternative comparable to an average Kent, not a replacement with equal power. But now it is pretty clear that it is only a matter of time that the Fit is the weapon of choice.

If anyone has an answer that is affordable I'd sure as love to hear it. For how this is suppose to make FF cheaper it sure screws me over. For all the guys with the high dollar DB-6 and new VD converting is no problem. But there are those of us that make due with less, much less, and still run competitive. Now we might have to invest more than we paid for our cars to stay competitive? Weak.

I am not writing this a bitch or a knock on anyone or anything, just to point out there are those that will be stuck between a rock and a hard place, a very expensive rock at that.

It's just a matter of time the Kent goes the way of the pinto at this point...



Or maybe I am just pissy because the Celtics suck so, so, so BAD!

[RussMcB]

The Honda Fit has made a huge difference in how attracted I am to the class, especially after driving race cars with new, fuel injected engines with an alternator.

If I can pull it off I would like to own and race a Honda powered FF. Prior to the Honda acceptance in FF I probably would have looked elsewhere.

[thunderracing91]

When the honda takes over someday and it is the engine to have i will sell both of my cars and get a converted car race ready. Till then i will run fords cause thats whats leading the grids right now.......simple as that....it is what it is....

[racer27]

The funds from the sale of the Citation FC is stashed away and to it I'm adding when I can so I can to eventually purchase a Fit powered FF. I have no intrest in another winged car (I.e Zetec Powered FC or FE), nor intrest in a non-modern power-plant where I got to limit my mileage due to short time between costly rebuilds. Nor do I have an intrest in the insanly fast (But I'm sure fun) FB/F1000 cars.

The Fit powerplant is is keeping me from walking away from the sport. Having this option kept me from squandering the FC Sale proceeds elsewhere.

I'm intrested to see:
1. If anyone is going to offer a non-factory produced kit/Service for slighly older cars. As a regionial level racer, I don't need the latest chassis to have fun.

2. Costs to do a a budget conversion using a Junk Yard moter as a core. Earlier this year, I was offered a low miliage '09's for less then $1.000. When I'm ready, I'll explore this for feasability and see if the #'s make sense.

[ric baribeault]

i don't see the honda being any more superior, than the zetec is in comparison to the pinto. as has been stated previously, several times, the honda doesn't obsolete a regional motor. the big kents do. i agree it's important for the class it stay that way

[Ananth K]

4. Sell the car, and go to a different class or even Club? Dunno to what, FC certainly isn't affordable. FE is not much cheaper. FV, not interested in 40 hp.

If anyone has an answer that is affordable I'd sure as love to hear it.

At the risk of another digression (a rare occurrence in a forum like this ), might I suggest F600? Its not a national class yet, but hopefully should be by the end of this year.

[Allen_W]

Aware that what follows is an example of the snapshot fallacy, but . . . in Cen-Div we are down a couple cars per race (1-2) to date due to Fit conversions (conversion taking longer, RA-shy Fit, etc.).

I do think it is interesting that the 2010 participation rates for FF put the class 4th overall, which means that if FF is a troubled class, then almost every class seems to be. The relatively high participation rate in FF is probably because the car is so awesome to drive and race - and, while expensive, is less so than a winged car.

[RobLav]

I might be heading down this path too...

[dc]

In the beginning I was in favor of this option as it was presented, as an alternative comparable to an average Kent, not a replacement with equal power. But now it is pretty clear that it is only a matter of time that the Fit is the weapon of choice

It's just a matter of time the Kent goes the way of the pinto at this point.

True, Reid, BUT the whole truth is, the Fit eventually WILL be the motor of choice for many—not because of the power potential—it will be (just like the Zetec) because of the reliability, consistency, longevity and ease of acquisition.

If you noticed at the RunOffs last year, the top 4 cars in FC were 2 Pintos and 2 Zetecs. The Pinto is not an underdog nor a handicap, just a fossil. Just like the Kent.



The addition of the Fit to this class will not alienate the Kent—nor should it ever—for those who prefer to use that engine. What it will do, though, is offer new and old FF racers an opportunity to compete on a relatively level playing field without struggling with the many idiosyncrasies of a 40-year old engine. Reid, the introduction of the Fit engine should benefit most the racers just like you who are not playing with massive racing budgets but want to stay competitive on the National level. Be it with a new engine package or a more flooded Kent market, your engine options now are greater than they have been in the last 25 years, and they will only get better as the years progress.



The glass is not half-empty. There is no doom and gloom to panic about.

[SteveLevin]

I have to agree with Doug... there's just no indication that the Fit will become the superior choice -- although I suspect over time it will become the popular choice.

Steve

[ric baribeault]

Steve, said about as perfect as it could be .

[John LaRue]

The issue of being competitive will likely be that of your chassis, not of engine choice.

[Matt King]

2. Costs to do a a budget conversion using a Junk Yard moter as a core. Earlier this year, I was offered a low miliage '09's for less then $1.000. When I'm ready, I'll explore this for feasability and see if the #'s make sense.

Maybe he will chime in here, but John Vlasis is in the midst of just such a conversion to his Piper. He said he bought two Fit core engines for an average of about $1000 each and is acquiring the rest of the conversion parts.

[TimW]

So, I can share some hard data on the conversion expenses for the 'high dollar' DB6.

My Kent was ok, but at 22 hours I was shopping it around to the top engine builders to make it good or at least better. The number I settled on to budget, including shipping etc was $4500. I put the Honda in for about that: ~$5300. I did sell a lot of kent stuff (only had the one engine, no spare carb, no spare distrib, only spare of $500 value or higher is my Swift pan and the hytech stainless header, both used). I sold the Kent & parts at a fair price, but no means top market for any of it.

My $5300 expense includes a 119 mile used motor (totaled the day after its 'pre delivery dealer inspection' doh!), selling on ebay parts not used from it, the HPD engine kit, the DB6 kit, the HPD optional sensor kit, some labor expense in engine dressing by someone who knows what they're doing, top motor mount modification fab (my frame was modified for double shear install), spare sensors & parts (cam, crank, MAP, MAT, gaskets, coil pack, fuel injector, fuel pump, alternator, starter, belts, spark plugs, oil filters), $900 of runoffs expenses covered by HPD contingencies (using 2009 data, understood to be similar in subsequent years), dyno expenses (dyno time bartered however), Staubli fuel line safety dry breaks & mating dump line, revised oil plumbing parts (my car not like the HPD DB6 sample).

This is how I came to the decision to convert to the Fit:

• If I were to spend $4500 to rebuild my kent it likely would be good, but by no means would it be a top notch motor. And it would be good for only 20 more hours
• Chicago winters are long, the summers are short. I have no desire to lose another two summer saturdays to revmoving the head and lapping valves
• The 'sell' by the CRB in September was that Fit would be equal (2hp below good kent) and HPD was articulating a known cost to get there...the kent rebuild expense to get there was unknown..my budget was fixed..I'd get only what I could get from the Kent
• I have no desire to ever understand how a carbourator works. I work in technology for a living...there is a reason I don't have a tube TV anymore and figure out how it works
• Getting a Fit which was 2hp down from a good kent for about the same money which would last 4-5 times as long seemed simple
• I had significantly reduced my racing in 2008 & 2009 due to trying to delay the kent rebuild...I had a moral aversion to spending $4500 on a lump that I hated having to constantly adjust & optimize, which was moreso than the CART engines I had worked professionally on
• As a driver that has a car that is faster than him, I need seat time. Not saving motor miles so I can get 2 seasons over 20 hours which is the max rebuild cadence I can afford.
• My perspective was that the Kent was the thorn in an otherwise fun endeavor in racing Formula Fords. I can't imagine what it was like before Jay & others made them reliable from the catastrophes of the past.

My biggest concerns about converting were:

• How would the weight distribution affect the dynamic aspects of the DB6?
• The hp level of my engine would be in the hands fo the CRB, not my checkbook. When 27.5 came out that fear was realized, but we seem to be back on a path as stated now
• What if HPD gives up? This risk obviuosly won't be known for a few years at least it appears
• Will being an earlier adopter be a benefit or a liability?
• Would HPD's kit definition of 'everything you need to convert' be the same as my definition
• How much car setup development & testing would be required - I'm closet wannabe race engineer so this actually is a benefit in my perspective.

In the end I do have to curtail my racing expenses this year due to financial reasons...partly due to dog that has regular appointments with a specialist now, and partly due to a frame up winter rebuild that opted to 'do as much now as possible' as the motor won't be out in 2 years to do delayed aspects then. I do not really consider those decisions to be 'conversion expenses' (re-kephos the a-arms, for example).

I agree, the FIt is not for everyone. Yes, there will be people that won't benefit from the option because of the car that they own. But no change will please all people all the time. I agree with what was said above, it may not be a power advantage to have a Fit, but it will still be popular due to the MTBO advantage which will benefit Fit owners in developing the car & driver without having to worry about the engine expense & service intervals. That will be the real advantage of the Fit, not its output or drivability.

This was, as far as I know now, right for my little FF program. In all honestly, the FIt kept me from heading to the door...or at least delaying it significantly...

Oh, and by the way Reid, while I only know the paddock whisper numbers of what your RF92 sold to you for, my DB6 hit the track converted for less than that in 2004. You're not being outspent...but Carl Haas has taught me everything I know about the art of the deal...just not everything he knows...

[RussMcB]

The issue of being competitive will likely be that of your chassis, not of engine choice.

And budget before engine, too.

[racer27]

Thanks for sharing Tim...

[rickjohnson356]

(after posting, I saw that my entry is more of a hijack from the original question, I apologize, but the thread starts talking about the 'whys and wherefores...)

I. too. like Ambrose (and maybe Reid?), have no overwhelming desire for a winged car any more. My experience so far is that they are more maintenance-heavy that I want to do at this time of my 'racing life'. There were many times early on in racing where I would gladly thrash all night etc to get to the track. not now, though.

I did like my Crossle FFords, but the Kent expenses and (again) maintenance required by the relatively short engine life, are keeping me out of them as well.

So, after looking at the changes to 'FV' brought about by the FST cars, I decided that it would be pretty close to what I want to do in racing for quite a while.

Mainly: disc brakes rather than drum brakes, 1600 vs 1200, engine mods limited mostly to life-prolonging features (dry sump, balanced rods (off the shelf from SR), spec cam, intake and carb, only have to have one gearbox, hard compound FF tires... (pretty long list right off the bat)

While not popular yet in SEDIV, the FST class is getting enough car counts to get their own run group in CenDiv, so maybe it will expand down here in a while. The races in Cendiv are really competitive and close as can be seen from the reports posted on ApexSpeed.

Another consideration is that in addition to regional racing, a FST car would be ideal for Autocrosses and hillclimbs and time trial events (less cost/travel than real racing). whereas a FF would be overkill for those events.

So if the Kent/Fit changeover is daunting or not stable enough at this time, maybe a FST would be a reasonable choice for Ambrose or Reid to consider???

my

[LenFC11]

if / when my zetec VD sells i will get a Honda powered FF

[reidhazelton]

Oh, and by the way Reid, while I only know the paddock whisper numbers of what your RF92 sold to you for, my DB6 hit the track converted for less than that in 2004. You're not being outspent...but Carl Haas has taught me everything I know about the art of the deal...just not everything he knows...

Show me a converted DB-6 for $13k with full spares (complete set of arms, uprights, push rids, links, mechanicals) and gears and you've won this argument. Show me anyone else that runs up front on a budget of $7324.95 per year, 7 races with the Runoffs. (That is everything, from food at the track, gas, fuel, parts, entry fees, shocks, gearbox use, brakes, tires (used, 1 set new), and no crashes). Boy, with all those new tires I see on the grid I would sure think someone is paying for those. And a new set for every session at the Runoffs, hum...by my math that is about what I spend in a whole season.

I'm not being out spent??? I don't even own my own trailer for $#!* sake! Boy, all those toters I am next too (who are nice enough to let me bumb electric off of) sure would say otherwise. At Grattan last year I had to sleep outside in a sleeping bag, I got Chiggers and boy to those bastards itch! Try driving with your ankles on fire! No hotels for me. I had over 80 hours on my Farley before I sent it to him three weeks ago. Amortize what the rebuild cost and it was less than $900/year for engine use, not bad if you ask me.

Theoretically, if I am on par with the average budget then I should have no problem finding $15k to convert my 92 with all the Fit conversions going on. Also, if I am not being outspent then all my college buddies should have no problem swinging a racing budget either, right?

My whole point was there are some people that the Fit negatively effects, and I want people to know it is not a warm fuzzy love fest for everyone. There are those of us that make the best with what we have and don't have the resources (We are not all Tim W) to convert our old VD's. I did not bring this up to whine, complain, or be a little bitch, or to get into some Internet-beefcake-meathead-argument. Just to make the other viewpoint known. Some will not benefit from this without a large expense. I like being the little guy, who bumbs rides in his friend's trailers, sleeps outside or in the trailer, uses everyone else's old tires (my favorite saying "uh...yeah I can get a session out of those tires."

And for those that say the Zetec and Pinto are equal, I believe it was a high reputable source that said last year after the first Blackhawk National "The pinto is dead" and it appears as subsequently converted to Zetec. This is what I am afraid of, in three years I have a car that is even less competitive but now due to engine.

It's a large expense I fear, not change itself. I'd love a Honda, but can't afford the conversion. So when the Kent goes the way ofthe Pinto, I am up the creek.

[KVS84]

A pinto did win the runoffs last year right? Can't be that dead...

Joseph Newgarden finished 6th at the Walter Hayes Trophy last year driving an RF92. Must be a pretty competitive car. The Fit will never have more power than a tricked out Kent, it will just be a much cheaper option. If you wanna waste money on a 40 year old engine looks like your car will always be very competitive. I'm sure Niki Coello's Pinto puts out more HP than a Zetec. He probably spent as much on his two pinto's as I did to run the entire F2K series in 08.


-Keegan

[TimW]

Reid:

your original preposition that db6s were high dollar is offensive. I did 7 nationals and the runoffs much further away for within $2k of your budget. All inclusive. I have no toter.

I understand that this change won't benefit everyone and some it may end up hurting, and I'm sorry you may end up in that group, but don't paint broad stereotypes as it's not always accurate and those who budget well and have the right luck aren't necessarily more privileged than you. The right luck of course was buying a db6 in 2003, not 2008

[SteveLevin]

I know I'm far from the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I don't see where there's a negative impact to those that keep their Kents?

And even if the Fit did have a couple of horsepower on a Kent... isn't the reality that for those folks racing on a limited budget already being outspent on things like tires and so forth?

Steve

[RussMcB]

Also, wont people who race with Kents benefit from more engines and parts availability? Everyone who converts to a Honda is going to add one or two engines to the market. That's got to help, even if only a little.

The only downsides I see are if the Honda becomes more powerful than the Kents those same racers were using, or if the Honda reliability and lower running costs let racers spend more money on other things (tires, track time, etc.).

[Wren]

The only reason I bought a car and renewed my competition license was because of the Fit engine. The decision was made while attending the FF40th.

I bought an FC(RF96) to keep my license up with regional racing mostly because I have an excellent source of very good takeoffs (I'd rather spend the money on the new car). Engines are available cheap, likely due to the zetec being adopted.

I will be starting construction of a new car for the Fit. I haven't done a lot with it yet other than some parts gathering. We've been rather busy with Brandon's FB. I am also building a new shop in the backyard to house my cars (just got in from hanging sheetrock until 10:30), so everything is in Tuscaloosa right now.

[Tom Valet]

What I see in this thread is the same thing that I saw with the discussion about an FF tire rule: people naturally tend to focus on what is good or bad for them personally and lose sight of what is good for the class as a whole. Everyone, including those who never plan to buy a Honda, should be excited about the idea of a low-cost, reliable, long-life, modern fuel injected engine for FF.

Lower costs for engine maintenance will mean more people are attracted to the class and just as important it means more people will be able to afford to continue to stay in the class. Most FF racers get tired of exorbitant engine bills and exorbitant tire costs after a few years and quit. The Honda goes a long way toward reducing one of the biggest budget items for an FF racer. And that means larger fields and more people to race against and that is good for everyone.

[mblanc]

I have no desire to ever understand how a carbourator works.

nor how to spell it.....

[Matt King]

nor how to spell it.....

A carburetor uses the venturi effect to atomize fuel and combine it with air into an emulsion. There, now you know how it works AND how to spell it.

[M.Sauce]

Reid- You make some good points.I am sure the guys who have invested in the Honda don't care what the impact is dollar wise will be on the Kent owners should the Honda ever be the best engine package.I think that would really be bad for the class.I have 6 cars in my shop and every owner is resistant to the Honda because of cost.We are running our engines 20 plus race weeknds now will the Honda have that much more longevity than the Kent?If you look at the real costs it will take many years for the Honda investment to pay off.

[RussMcB]

If I understand the Kent owners' concerns, they are all based on the assumption that someday the Hondas will have more power.

So, does that mean Kent owners are fine with the current situation (with Hondas making less HP), and will not have any concerns as long as the SCCA does not allow the Honda to have greater power?

[M.Sauce]

Russ-When the Honda engine was allowed in last fall it was understood that the Honda would start at less HP and always be kept to level to keep the two motors competitive with the Honda being a little less.Throttle response will do alot to equalize the two engines even if the Honda is a few HP down.We don't race dynos.So on track comparisons are of paramount importance so we don't ruin the class.If the Honda ever is perceived as an advantage it will take many years to rebuild the class after the Kent owners leave or quit.

[ric baribeault]

mike i disagree. i think most of us care about the class a great deal, enough in fact to spend more money on a concept we believe will help the class grow. trickle down should make it better for those who desire to stay with the kent. it's the same as saying the guys with tire deals don't care about anyone else. the price of racing is escalated anytime a guy who pays for tires is forced to put on a new set to stay close to a tire deal guy. reid's concerns are every bit as valid as all the concerns at the time of the zetec conversion. it's the unknown and everyone on both sides is speculating. i prefer to stay with the facts and deal with the issues as they actually present themselves. the fact is that the car is still slightly underpowered. and i believe enough honda owners have enough integrity to be honest about any time, if ever, that the honda becomes superior in a FF field. and i would suspect strongly that the engine will get more than four years. so not even taking into account all the advantages of a modern fuel injected motor, it makes sense to those of us planning years in the class. that's committment. that's caring about the class.

[ric baribeault]

throttle response? really?.....come on

[Dennis Valet]

There's no doubt that the Fit will eventually be the "better" engine, but better doesn't have to (and won't) mean faster.

[TimW]

I am sure the guys who have invested in the Honda don't care what the impact is dollar wise will be on the Kent owners should the Honda ever be the best engine package.

No, Mike we do care deeply about this class and that it remains relevant. But I also believe to move forward there will be some who are negatively impacted by the class moving forward...SCCA has spent too long trying (and failing horribly) at trying to keep everybody happy and not marginalize members 'investments' that it masks any sense of vision of the organization may have once had.

Where were all the Van Dieman RF83 owners crying foul when the DB1 came out? There were a crap load of them back then. But aren't they negatively impacted? The FF fields at Riverside in '84 were huge, fast and attracting real upward talent once the DB1 came out and arguably 84-90 were great years of NA FF. I look forward to that in 2011 and beyond because as Ric said, we believe in the concept of FF, not in protecting the amount of money we have tied up in it.

[Brandon Hull]

We started in FF last year as the logical next steps from karts, a sense of nostalgia for it's place in history, an appreciation for the grassroots-sportsman quality of the current field, and the appeal of the purity and design elegance of the FF chassis.
The advent of the Fit, however, increases the chances we stay in the class for all the reasons mentioned: lower operating costs, less variation between engines, honda's obvious serious commitment.

We are in no rush to convert however, despite nearly missing our practice at RA due to perfectly labeled factory autolite distributor parts that were nontheless incompatible. The CRB behavior this year suggests they are committed to moving cautiously and erring on the side of conservatism as they merge the new engine into the class. So we will hang on to the Kent until the next big rebuild bill looms, and apply that as a 'discount' to the conversion. I'm not rushing to sell the spare engine in the garage either.

But the existence of the Fit alternative gives us as newcomers added confidence in making a long term commitment to the class...

[Allen_W]

Brandon,

Welcome to FF, a little belated, and congratulations on Forrest's fine run in the Sprints at RA.

Allen W
FF #9