Does anyone use the Bazzaz tractionl control?

[JohnPaul]

I was wondering if anyone has used (or if there is a need for) the Bazzaz Traction control module? It's a great unit and used quite often on bikes as the rear tires break away easily. I'm not sure if that is an issue with FB cars or if this is even a legal component to use in the class. Thanks,
JP

[Dave Gomberg]

9.3.2. ACTIVE SUSPENSIONS AND TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEMS
Active suspensions and traction control systems, as installed by the automobile manufacturer and unmodified, are allowed only in Touring, Showroom Stock, and STO.

Dave

[JohnPaul]

9.3.2. ACTIVE SUSPENSIONS AND TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEMS
Active suspensions and traction control systems, as installed by the automobile manufacturer and unmodified, are allowed only in Touring, Showroom Stock, and STO.

Dave

Ok so, if lets say Firman, VD, Speads etc. installs the Bazzaz TC at their factory and it's not modified (you don't touch it) you can run it in (and this is where I'm lost) touring, showroom stock and STO? excuse my ignorance but do any of these apply to FB? seems a little confusing. Am I correct with any of this?

[glenn cooper]

IMO a m/c only requirement with these powerplants in our cars.

Now if we had standing starts, or if we had 300 HP engines, THAT would be another story.

Oh yeah - Does not apply to FB, only the classes listed.
Of course there is no mention of allowing anything like this in FB, so that in and of itself means - No

[rickb99]

9.3.2. ACTIVE SUSPENSIONS AND TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEMS
Active suspensions and traction control systems, as installed by the automobile manufacturer and unmodified, are allowed only in Touring, Showroom Stock, and STO. Dave

Even though the FACTORY may install it in an FB, per the rule above you'd have to run your traction controlled Firman or Phoenix in Touring, Showroom Stock class or STO.

[JohnPaul]

Now if we had standing starts, or if we had 300 HP engines, THAT would be another story.

Kind of what I was trying to find out, on a bike which weighs a third of an FB car, Glenn you know from racing bikes that you are always smoking the rear tire getting on the gas coming out of turn but if in an FB your rear tires aren't breaking loose on hard acceleration there wouldn't be any need for TC anyway, so that's that! thanks

[RobLav]

Why would you ever want traction control? it might be useful in the rain, but that's it. Even with an open diff, there is no dry wheel spin.

[RussMcB]

I think JohnPaul has gotten enough reasons to drop the idea like a hot potato.

My first two thoughts were, 1) Imagine the complexity, reliability and money it would take (along with the missed track time, etc.), and 2) If this sport/hobby is all about mastering car control, why remove one aspect of that? Better to fine-tune the right foot and get the satisfaction from that.

[JohnPaul]

I think JohnPaul has gotten enough reasons to drop the idea like a hot potato.

My first two thoughts were, 1) Imagine the complexity, reliability and money it would take (along with the missed track time, etc.), and 2) If this sport/hobby is all about mastering car control, why remove one aspect of that? Better to fine-tune the right foot and get the satisfaction from that.

I wasn't going to buy it either (i have to spend money on a bunch of other things before TC), I was just wondering if anyone was using it and if there was even a need for it, I know racers will use every advantage they can get there hands on.
It's actually a plug and play unit from Bazzaz so it's not like there's much to it but I agree, I grew up on dirtbikes so I like the feel of car/bike wiggling around alittle.

[formulasuper]

Why would you ever want traction control? it might be useful in the rain, but that's it. Even with an open diff, there is no dry wheel spin.

Maybe so with the 1000cc FB cars, however my stock Busa 1300cc powered Ralt RT5 with a spool (no diff) will break both tires loose on the green flag start when powering up from 2nd to 3rd. That's not so bad when on a straight part of the track such as at Daytona, however tracks like Rd. Atl. require less than full throttle shifts as was demonstrated a few years back at the start of the ARRC race!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLc42-12aD8

[JohnPaul]

Maybe so with the 1000cc FB cars, however my stock Busa 1300cc powered Ralt RT5 with a spool (no diff) will break both tires loose on the green flag start when powering up from 2nd to 3rd. That's not so bad when on a straight part of the track such as at Daytona, however tracks like Rd. Atl. require less than full throttle shifts as was demonstrated a few years back at the start of the ARRC race!

Use the Bazzaz traction control, it's supposed to be very good.

http://www.bazzaz.net/bz1/index.php?...d=4&Itemid=181

[rickb99]

......it might be useful in the rain, but that's it. Even with an open diff, there is no dry wheel spin.

I would say YES to that. The Seattle Double National had a LOT of rain and all of the FB's were struggling with maintaining traction except.. Nicholas Belling in the Firman. He was the 'best' at it (despite 2 spins in the weekend). Which gave him his run away victory in Monday's race.

But I agree, Traction Control is just another feature that takes AWAY from the drivers 'mastery' of the racing conditions. Shouldn't be allowed.

I sorta feel the same way about paddle shifters and no lift shifting. But they are SO COOL

Then there's anti-lock brakes.. Hmm. No.

Push to pass buttons.. Hmmm. No.

[RussMcB]

I wasn't going to buy it either.

Oops. Sorry. There I go again making assumptions when I shouldn't.

I see that the Bazzaz "Uses stock sensors only". I wonder what it uses for input. I thought it might need wheel speed but maybe not.

[HastyHorn]

The Bazzaz unit uses gear/road speed/engine rpm to decide that engine revs are rising too fast for the increase in road speed to trigger engine de-tune to re-establish traction. It would be tricky to use this system and incorporate FB road speed, gear selection and engine rpm with the same sensitivity that is effective for a road bike.

A MOTEC based ECU (illegal in FB) would probably stand a better chance of actually being helpful.

Hasty Horn

[Richard Dziak]

John Paul:

The traction control in FB will be you the driver. I am sure that you will learn quickly that these FB cars have lots of power and you can lose the rear end quickly. I had trouble myself when I first got the FB as the power to weight ratio and power to the rear end was quite huge. The car is easy to spin and takes seat time to learn the car and the power it possesses. These cars are not starter cars, and I would not suggest that a new novice open wheel racer go out an buy one of these FB cars as their first open wheel racecar. The driver learning curve is huge and quick. In my case Dustin over at Phoenix made some changes to the suspension that really helped control the loose rear end, and driving the car has been much better. After 2 1/2 years of driving the FB, I am still learning techniques. I have had some good pointers from Indy car drivers Jim Guthrie and Robbie Unser, whose suggestions have really helped handle the F1000.

Get as much seat time as you can, and you will learn what the car does and how to handle it. They are a blast to drive, and acceleration and handling ability is impressive. You will have fun, just stay away from walls on the race track until you get to know your car. Seat time is critical before trying to race these fabulous machines.

[carnut169]

The 07 & up GSXR has a mode switch that George Dean had enabled on my old car. It was not traction control but did reduce power... we thought that in a rain race running in mode b might be a good thing. Never got a chance to try it in the car but on the bikes i really do like the ability to run in b or even c to tame the 1000 a bit.

[K.Sampson]

It looks like the Bazzaz does not use/need wheel speed and simply limits the rate of engine speed increase (RPM/sec). With a chassis data system and some care in tuning it could be pretty useful. Not quite as nice as something measuring wheel speeds and yaw rate, but better than nothing.

Now as far as the legality of the unit goes, one could argue that the system is simply limiting the max rate of engine speed increase. As it knows nothing about wheel spin it is simply acting as a damper on the drivers lead foot. If the driver applies too much throttle with too little grip then they are still going spin, as the system has no feedback to work with.

Also, I am pretty sure similar control systems are already used in the newer motorcycle ECMs. Not in the same tunable form, but as something to limit how quickly the engine can accelerate.

Cheers,

-Kyle

[924RACR]

Acceleration limiter - whee. Maybe I'm a bit spoiler, but sounds pretty low rent.

OTOH, if you could hack it a bit and add some more inputs...

But yeah, no real need for that here!

[Matt King]

Acceleration limiter - whee. Maybe I'm a bit spoiler, but sounds pretty low rent.

It wasn't low rent when they were cheating with it in NASCAR 15 years ago! Or in AMA Superbike, which is where Bazzaz comes from.

[924RACR]

Yes it is.

We had much better TCS systems 15 yrs ago, let alone what we can do today...

[Matt King]

Yes it is.

We had much better TCS systems 15 yrs ago, let alone what we can do today...

Maybe, but did it "pass" tech in a NASCAR race?

I agree with you that acceleration rate traction control is not the most sophisticated system available, and if you are under not rules contraints, there are better options. But it does work pretty well when there are no other options, legal or not...

And if I gave you two stipulations, 1) you have to run a carburetor, and 2) you can't have a wheelspeed or driveshaft speed sensor on the car, you'd have a hard time coming up with a better TCS option.

edit: BTW, one reason why this type of system is useful on a motorcycle is because a conventional wheelspeed sensor can be unreliable due to the variation in tire circumference when the bike is leaned over on the sidewall. You can integrate it with lean angle, but that gets pretty complicated. But if you can at least limit wheelspin through controlling acceleration rate, you can make gains in traction.

[formulasuper]

Maybe, but did it "pass" tech in a NASCAR race?

I agree with you that acceleration rate traction control is not the most sophisticated system available, and if you are under not rules contraints, there are better options. But it does work pretty well when there are no other options, legal or not...

And if I gave you two stipulations, 1) you have to run a carburetor, and 2) you can't have a wheelspeed or driveshaft speed sensor on the car, you'd have a hard time coming up with a better TCS option.

edit: BTW, one reason why this type of system is useful on a motorcycle is because a conventional wheelspeed sensor can be unreliable due to the variation in tire circumference when the bike is leaned over on the sidewall. You can integrate it with lean angle, but that gets pretty complicated. But if you can at least limit wheelspin through controlling acceleration rate, you can make gains in traction.

Most non-sport bike riders don't realize the amount of effective tire circumference change when leaning over one of these modern day beast with their fat rear tire & it's semicircle profile contact surfaces. It's so drastic that you can actually feel & hear the difference in rpm when powering up & out of a sharp corner!

[924RACR]

Cool... very good point, will need to work that into the algorithm... or maybe it's already been done...