Order of Importance

[JohnPaul]

so the car I bought is a pretty nice car, hardly used but needs some upgrades (or maybe not) from what I understand. The following are things that should be done but I'd like to do them in the order of importance:

1) it doesn't have a diffuser
2) it doesn't have a limited slip Diff
3) it doesn't have a dry sump
4) it doesn't have paddle/flat shift system

those are the basics I see that most people have in there cars, or are they all really important at my beginners stage? Is there anything else I'm not listing that I should be looking into? what is the order of in which I should be spending money on? thanks

[RussMcB]

Re: Limited slip & paddle shifter. Those two can definitely wait (assuming what the car has works well).

I'll defer to others about the dry sump and diffuser. I ran without a diffuser at the last race. I was already slow (before my diffuser problem at the track), so it's hard to tell how much the lack of diffuser cost in lap times. The car was still fun to drive without it.

[Northwind]

At your stage of the game keep it simple. Take it from me I'm not that much out in front of you as far as getting used to driving FB cars. If your diff is open you will be fine. If it is a locked spool then you should make the change. A paddle shifter has yet to be determined to be the best route over a solid tube type linkage. I have been running a wet sump oil pan for six races now and have not had a problem. Be sure to get the latest mod pan with the oil pick up in the front and follow the oil fill directions. Make sure your oil cooler and water radiator are capable of proper cooling. You need to keep the car RELIABLE. Realiabilty is track time - Track time = development - Development = speed.

Good Luck and welcome to Formula 1000

[peat]

I don´t know how are the tracks there, but in my opinion, the first thing to do is to install a dry sump, it is very easy to brake the engine in long fast corners and the first target, in my opinion, is to get a realiable car or more reliable if it is now.

The rest of the parts depend on your experience and money but If I must do a list, the second one will be a differential, them a paddle shift kit and tha last one a rear diffuser.

In my opinion there isn´t any other thing that you must look after, the rest will be race with the car and test it and by this way find a good set up for your driving style and for the track.

In other way a good option, if it possible, is to talk with someone with a car like yours and take advice about their experience.

[Rick Ross]

Brandon Dixon is one of the fastest FB guys out there, and I think that he is running an open diff without flat shift. The diffuser might be a good idea if one is available for your chassis. But what you need now is seat time.....period. Spend your money on tires, test days, crash repairs, etc.

[DMac]

Brandon Dixon is one of the fastest FB guys out there, and I think that he is running an open diff without flat shift. The diffuser might be a good idea if one is available for your chassis. But what you need now is seat time.....period. Spend your money on tires, test days, crash repairs, etc.

Tighten the nut behind the wheel. A fast driver in a slow car can beat a slow driver in a fast car.

[Brands]

Brandon Dixon is one of the fastest FB guys out there, and I think that he is running an open diff without flat shift. The diffuser might be a good idea if one is available for your chassis. But what you need now is seat time.....period. Spend your money on tires, test days, crash repairs, etc.

Exactly. Seat time is THE most important thing when you start out driving a single seater. As long as the car has wheels that point in the right direction then you'll be fine. No need to play with roll bars/wings etc etc, just drive it!

[RobLav]

My ordered opinion is:

1) Seat time
2) Diffuser

and later:
Dry sump
If it is an open diff, leave it.

[glenn cooper]

I think there are quite a few places to get a difuser, like HRP, or Gyrodynamics, Pennon, etc...
You may even be able to modify a VD difuser to work w/ that chassis.
I'd go for that first. And last, as far as mods.

My last car had a Ltd slip dif - it worked fine, although there definitely was increased rolling resistance, at least on my 10 yr old VD chassis.
My RFR has an open diff and it seems to work just fine.

I believe the jury is out on the flat shifters and auto blippers. They don't seem to have the consistency that a flick of the right wrist allows, ie damn near perfect every time.

I have won races w/ wet sump pans and dry sump systems. There is no doubt that an engine will produce more HP w/ a dry sump. There is also no doubt that that approach weighs more than a wet sump pan. I'd run whichever is on the car, unless it is a drysump system that is known to be inadequate. At that point I'd ditch it, or if you are capable, modify it. The latest wet sump pan mods seem to offer very good oiling at a reduced price point to a dry sump system.

[Mike B]

My RFR has an open diff and it seems to work just fine.

Really? I thought every new(er) car had a LSD. No?

[Brandon Dixon]

Our design *choice* was an open diff.

I'm still running a wet sump, I've fiddled with a flatshifter, but I've had too many problems.

Like everyone else has said: track time, track time, track time. Those should be your priorities. Quality track time on decent tires and a reliable, predictable car is worth the most.

[JohnPaul]

The overwhelming majority says "spend money on the tracktime", and I will, I think that is the #1 most important advice out of the bunch.
The car comes with an open diff, so according to popular opinion an LSD isn't neccesary.
I'm really getting conflicting advice on the drysump (my engine is bone stock), especially which system to go with, I was looking into a BRD system. Which is "the one" to get?
The paddle/flatshift/auto-blip system seems like something I can look at down the line but I'm getting a little worried when I hear about getting the whole heel/toe brake/clutch blipping the gas to match the revs manuever down (sounds like I'm going to twist myself into a pretzel and blow the corner) after typing all that I think that paddle/shifter system just moved up the priority ladder.
The one thing I'm getting pretty consistant advice on is that I should look into buying a diffuser.

[RussMcB]

Regarding a diffuser, find out what Tom Beattie and Ben Cooper did, and talk with Mike Beauchamp and Mike Devins. All great guys.

Man, if you raced motorcycles, with all that needs to happen there, you will have no problems shifting a race car. Heel and toe is easily learned in a short time (and you don't need to use that method right away).

Like everyone has said above, strive for a reliable car. Don't worry about optional go-fast things like complicated shifting systems until after a few outings. Hopefully you'll have the car for several seasons and (even in FL), you can tackle those projects in the wintertime. Stick with the simple stick shift at first.

I thought a dry sump was mandatory a while back, but several people in FB & DSR have success with wet sumps. If the car can accept the larger wet sump, I might lean towards that. That will get you to the track faster,

Do you know about the sports racers forum? There are smart folks there, and some recent threads about wet sump baffle improvements. Take a look around in here: http://dsrforum.yuku.com/forums/10/t...FI-Oiling.html

Let's see some pictures of the car when you get a chance.

[carnut169]

I remember waaay back when I 1st got my car the thing that made the biggest difference- one I could definately feel (besides running new tires) was adding a Gyrodynamics diffuser. HUGE difference, and I had a diffuser on the car. The things just work.

Besides for being the best bang for the buck, Gyrodynamics owner- Mike Beauchamp- is the largest supporter of F1000 on the planet. He helped form the class, write the rules, organized the whole current series, and sends out the updates for the country. Keep in mind, he asks for nothing in return.

He's also an unpaid volunteer moderator on this forum and a great guy.

IMHO, no one in FB should be running anything else.

[JohnPaul]

The latest wet sump pan mods seem to offer very good oiling at a reduced price point to a dry sump system.

What is this?

[Mike B]

I remember waaay back when I 1st got my car the thing that made the biggest difference- one I could definately feel (besides running new tires) was adding a Gyrodynamics diffuser. HUGE difference, and I had a diffuser on the car. The things just work.

Besides for being the best bang for the buck, Gyrodynamics owner- Mike Beauchamp- is the largest supporter of F1000 on the planet. He helped form the class, write the rules, organized the whole current series, and sends out the updates for the country. Keep in mind, he asks for nothing in return.

He's also an unpaid volunteer moderator on this forum and a great guy.

IMHO, no one in FB should be running anything else.

Stop it, you're embarrassing me!

The paddle/flatshift/auto-blip system seems like something I can look at down the line but I'm getting a little worried when I hear about getting the whole heel/toe brake/clutch blipping the gas to match the revs manuever down (sounds like I'm going to twist myself into a pretzel and blow the corner) after typing all that I think that paddle/shifter system just moved up the priority ladder.

This is where priority #1, track time, comes in. An auto-blip/paddle shift system won't make you a better driver.

I'm really getting conflicting advice on the drysump (my engine is bone stock),

Note that nobody has suggested running the engine bone stock. That is asking for trouble in short order. If you go with a wet sump, you still need one of the oil pan baffles and modified oil pick-ups that are available.

Our design *choice* was an open diff.

Double-Really?! With all the brain-picking I did last weekend, I never even thought to ask about your diff. Really? My crew chief had all but talked me into upgrading to a LSD (except for the paying-for-it part) but now I have proof that it's not needed. Crap, I thought that might've been why I was so slow...

[Purple Frog]

Want to go fast? Hook up with James Lee. Don't expect to be coddled nor sucked up to. Come with a thick skin and open ears and soon you'll be going faster than you ever dreamed.
If you have a thin skin and want to be coddled and told how great you are, find somebody else.
Absorb what James is telling you, and you will be faster.

Many hear him, few can carry it out.

[jim morgan]

Never hurt my feelings, and I'm very sensitive.

[glenn cooper]

JP, When you say the engine is bone stock, is it mounted in the chassis?
If so, there's no way it's bone stock, as in it MUST have a wetsump pan on it.
(If it was dry sumped there'd be an oil tank somewhere).
A stock oil pan is much taller than a wet or dry sump pan, sometimes refered to as a flat pan, both of which are approx 1.25" thick.
Which year / make engine is it?

I am running a BRD drysump system. I (and others) have run other drysump systems with horrible results, and "support", so this (BRD) is definitely the way to go.
As to the RFR drysump system, I don't really have any experience with it, and if 'm not mistaken is only available for the '09 GSXR?
Give Jesse a call, his kits are well engineered and the build quality is incredible.

Don't even consider heel and toeing (actually quite the misnomer, as old Brittish sportscars and the like from the 60's actually required you to use your right heel and toe, whereas modern, closely situated pedals require the use of you right toes/brake and the ball of the foot/throttle).

Anyway, did you ever change your roadrace bike over to a "GP" style shift pattern; 1 up and 5 down? Most folks who do this love it, and it's for a reason - it's better!
When I did this on my CBR600F2 SS bike, it was at Daytona for bikeweek. By the time the Pro 600 SS race came around the fololowing week I had it dialed. In fact I only shifted the wrong way once that first weekend, and it sounded like 2 burly bikers ripped a house cat in half!

Left foot brake, no clutch up shift, blip throttle for downshifts, no clutch. Simple.
I never raced karts, but left foot braking came very naturally...

Dude, you roadraced motorcycles with a combined contact patch of a pack of cigarettes, with the same HP we are using with about 20 x's the contact patch!

Like I often tell Ana, "Hell woman, you played defense on the Lady Thrashers ice hockey team; balanced yourself on 1/8" wide sharp ass blades - you can do anything!"

That's all for now, as you were...

[JohnPaul]

JP, When you say the engine is bone stock, is it mounted in the chassis?
If so, there's no way it's bone stock, as in it MUST have a wetsump pan on it.
(If it was dry sumped there'd be an oil tank somewhere).
A stock oil pan is much taller than a wet or dry sump pan, sometimes refered to as a flat pan, both of which are approx 1.25" thick.
Which year / make engine is it?


The engine is a stock 07 GSXR. I had it shipped directly to Philly motorsports for the install. I didn't purchase a Dry sump so I'm assuming that Sal (and I'll call to confirm) will do whatever modifications needed to the oil pan so I can run it that way.

I am running a BRD drysump system. I (and others) have run other drysump systems with horrible results, and "support", so this (BRD) is definitely the way to go.
As to the RFR drysump system, I don't really have any experience with it, and if 'm not mistaken is only available for the '09 GSXR?
Give Jesse a call, his kits are well engineered and the build quality is incredible.

Don't even consider heel and toeing (actually quite the misnomer, as old Brittish sportscars and the like from the 60's actually required you to use your right heel and toe, whereas modern, closely situated pedals require the use of you right toes/brake and the ball of the foot/throttle).

Anyway, did you ever change your roadrace bike over to a "GP" style shift pattern; 1 up and 5 down? Most folks who do this love it, and it's for a reason - it's better!
When I did this on my CBR600F2 SS bike, it was at Daytona for bikeweek. By the time the Pro 600 SS race came around the fololowing week I had it dialed. In fact I only shifted the wrong way once that first weekend, and it sounded like 2 burly bikers ripped a house cat in half!

Left foot brake, no clutch up shift, blip throttle for downshifts, no clutch. Simple.
I never raced karts, but left foot braking came very naturally...

Dude, you roadraced motorcycles with a combined contact patch of a pack of cigarettes, with the same HP we are using with about 20 x's the contact patch!

Like I often tell Ana, "Hell woman, you played defense on the Lady Thrashers ice hockey team; balanced yourself on 1/8" wide sharp ass blades - you can do anything!"

That's all for now, as you were...

Glenn,
The engine is a stock 07 GSXR. I had it shipped directly to Philly motorsports for the install. I didn't purchase a Dry sump so I'm assuming that Sal (and I'll call to confirm) will do whatever modifications needed to the oil pan so I can run it that way.
I'm not too concerned with all the heel/toe, matching revs stuff, I'm just wondering if a good reliable paddle/flatshift system would make my life a little easier so I can concentrate on the getting used to driving the car and being smooth.
I very comfortable with left foot braking (from karts), and up/down clutchless shifting is simple enough. I'm figuring throttle blips on downshift is something that'll be pretty easy to get used to.
And yes cars seem easier than bikes (hello, 4 wide wheels?) but I don't want to discount the learning curve and difficulty of driving a car at race pace safely. Once I'm out there and a little competitive I'll be a little more cocky until then I'll be the humble newbie asking all the stupid questions.
PS: Don't laugh but I raced GP style shift for entire season and still hated it (switched back to standard), I think it was from racing MX since I was 6 years old.

[jerry freeman]

Everyone here has pretty much told you what you need to do but I thought I'd give you the slow,poor driver standpoint. Take it with a grain of salt.

I have a bone stock motor in my car (07 Suzuki) with the original stock pan. I've never had any oil problems or blown motors.(5-6 races a year). My corner speeds are not as high as the front runners and there are people who say my info is worthless because of that but like I said NO EXPLOSIONS.(yet) You will have to have one of the good pans because the stock pan won't fit anybodys car but mine.

I have run a regular sick shifter and I built a mechanical paddle shifter this winter and both work fine. I do like having both hands on the wheel with the paddles. I don't use the flat/blip shift setup. Heard to many problems.

That heal and toe BS may be faster or better or whatever. I don't know because I can't do it. I came from drag racing where I had a hand brake. Never raced karts so I don't left foot brake either. I upshift clutchless (most of the time) and use the clutch on downshifts. No problems so far.

Bottom line, what you have should work fine. Drive it and work on the rest later.

Jerry

[glenn cooper]

So the car did/does not have an engine it.

To quote Emilly La Tella - "Oh, that's different. Never mind".

Had this car ever had an engine in it and run or raced?

[Brands]

B.Cooper Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkeHf...eature=related

G.Cooper Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azpqT...eature=related

I like this one too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur...eature=related

And another...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9a9I038qjU

[glenn cooper]

Using the clutch to UPSHIFT an F1 car?
I gotta go back to sleep...

[JohnPaul]

So the car did/does not have an engine it.

To quote Emilly La Tella - "Oh, that's different. Never mind".

Had this car ever had an engine in it and run or raced?

The car did have an 06 GSXR (wet sump), I'm replacing it with an 07 GSXR I'm goin to use the west sump pan and exhaust from with the 06 that came out.
Are there any issues with the GSXR clutch? just use what there? Does the slipper clutch that comes with the engine help with the engine Revs when downshifting?

[glenn cooper]

something to do with tube and or port diameters.
Stock clutch is fine.
Slipper seems very unobtrusive when working properly.
I had an issue at the ARRC last year and disabled it, quick and easy to remove the studs through the inspection cap on the clutch cover - 5 minutes.

[JohnPaul]

Formula 1 footwork from one of my all time favorites. Doesn't seem like too much going on (at least from my untrained eyes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtDRGNnTQHY&NR=1

[Herman Pahls]

Glen
I want to learn left foot braking.
My Hayabusa powered sportsracer is street-legal so I can practice on the backroads.
The clutchless up shift seems easy but I am not catching on to the throttle blip on clutchless downshifts.
Should I be putting pressure on the shifter and then blip once to allow the "dogs" to release and then complete the downshift?
On the upshift does one hold pressure on the shifter and then let off throttle to allow the up-shift?
It appeared on the video that there was 2 blips per upshift on a H pattern shifter.
I would like to know the sequence and the timing as to when you blip ( one or two blips ) when initiating a down shift on a sequential transmission?
I am hoping that this "old dog is not to old to learn new tricks."
I appreciate the forum advice to John Paul since I will also be new to F-1000.
I am new to road racing and my lap times have improved 14 seconds after 4 races at Portland.
Thanks herman

[Brands]

Don't think of each individual part of a downshift, rather one fluid action. I brake with my right foot, dip the clutch, rock my right foot on the brake pedal to 'blip' the throttle (once) all while moving the gear lever. It becomes second nature and you downchange, bam, bam, bam as quick as that. The other alternative is left foot braking and just removing the clutch 'step'. Blip the throttle whilst moving the lever. It'a all about timing. In the UK we don't drive auto transmissions on the road, and whilst no one 'heel and toes' the option is there to learn. I've been doing since I was 15, and still do on my way to work (when I'm not in fuel conservation mode!). Up shifting in my race car is simply pulling the lever back - no clutch, no lift. I do have an ignition cut though. If you don't then a quick lift of the throttle will do the job. You don't need to come right of the gas, just a slight relaxing is all you need.

[Charles Warner]

Using the clutch to UPSHIFT an F1 car?
I gotta go back to sleep...

Is this such a surprise? Mechanical sympathy and technique are important at all levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59PCjhRr2yY

Using the clutch up and down properly will ultimately put less stress on the driveline and be smoother. Some may have trouble learning the technique but that should simply take practice. Craig Taylor has data traces showing using the clutch on upshifts is just as fast as not using it and saves dog rings. I've read Bill Hewland's diatribe but one must remember his business is to sell gearbox bits. That said, all should be able to race without using the clutch for those days where you lose it and Bill's comments are very good for this. (http://www.hewland.com/svga/help.htm)

As for "heel and toe" it is vital if you are trying to skip-shift (I.e. 5th to 2nd) which is becoming more important as braking systems get better. It is easy to outbrake one's downshifting ability in many cars.

[rickb99]

......As for "heel and toe" it is vital if you are trying to skip-shift (I.e. 5th to 2nd) which is becoming more important as braking systems get better. It is easy to outbrake one's downshifting ability in many cars.

When the 1st ever Jaguar XK-E Coupe arrived in Tucson Arizona in 1961, the then Secretary of the SCCA took me for a 'quick' (as in fast) ride in it. I noticed right away he wasn't down shifting through the gears to help slow the car going into corners. Rather, just going to the gear he needed.

So I asked him about it. His answer, the disc brakes can haul the car down faster then I can go through the gears. There's no 'braking' gain to be had by putting the extra stress on the drive train and I can select the gear I need for the corner.

That's been true with most disc brake equiped sports cars ever since.

[JohnPaul]

Rick, You are right, engine braking is the worst thing to do especially on the MC engine (besides it'll get the car or bike way out of shape going into the turn), that is exactly why all new MC bike engine are equipped with slipper clutches to eliminate that problem. "Back" in the day before slipper clutches(5 years ago or less) if you agressively downshifted at a fast pace the engine breaking would have the rear tire skipping and bouncing around, you'd go into turns sideways. The brakes are the best way to slow the car/bike and not disrupting the suspension.

The Hewland article is very good, basically what it say's is that automated is the best method: flatshift, autoblip etc. (as long as the system is reliable I guess). As far as upshifting the best method is not using the clutch but just loading the gear lever and a quick off the throttle and back on as fast as physically possible.
Best method for downshifting: quick "stab: or "dipping" of the clutch and downshifting as late as possible (basically towards the end of braking so the engine RPM's are as low as possible), Throttle blipping to match revs if the RPM's between gears drop more than 1300 RPM's. I'm not really sure how much the RPM's typically drop between gears on downshifting but I guess that is why downshifting as late (or slowest speed before turn) is recommended so as to have the least amount of RPM change between gears.
That's what I got out of it, am I missing anything.

[glenn cooper]

B.Cooper Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkeHf...eature=related

G.Cooper Technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azpqT...eature=related

I like this one too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur...eature=related

And another...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9a9I038qjU

I need to see a vid of a car that for sure has a dog ring/non synchro gearbox.
Some of those cars don't even look like they have a clutch pedal, L,OMFG, WTF is U w/T?

I still have no idea what I am looking at with the F1 car vid.

[RobLav]

Charles brings up a point that I DON'T like about the sequential shifter - having to row through the gears while downshifting. And I have to count them too! And hope that each click actually worked.

[Charles Warner]

I need to see a vid of a car that for sure has a dog ring/non synchro gearbox.
Some of those cars don't even look like they have a clutch pedal, L,OMFG, WTF is U w/T?

I still have no idea what I am looking at with the F1 car vid.

Not sure which of these cars you think do not have a "dog ring/non synchro gearbox." As far as I can tell they all do.

And the F1 video clearly shows Patrick Depailler using the clutch shifting up and down on the 6 wheeler, as well as his "heel & toe" method. And I can guarantee that is a dog ring/non-synchro box.

[glenn cooper]

Gotta be the only guy in F1 to use the clutch to change up on a dog ring box!

[Charles Warner]

Gotta be the only guy in F1 to use the clutch to change up on a dog ring box!

You would obviously be surprised . . . . . most of the guys I race with do. Senna did.

[glenn cooper]

I start usin' the clutch - TOMORROW!

[glenn cooper]

Is this such a surprise? Mechanical sympathy and technique are important at all levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59PCjhRr2yY

Using the clutch up and down properly will ultimately put less stress on the driveline and be smoother. Some may have trouble learning the technique but that should simply take practice. Craig Taylor has data traces showing using the clutch on upshifts is just as fast as not using it and saves dog rings. I've read Bill Hewland's diatribe but one must remember his business is to sell gearbox bits. That said, all should be able to race without using the clutch for those days where you lose it and Bill's comments are very good for this. (http://www.hewland.com/svga/help.htm)

As for "heel and toe" it is vital if you are trying to skip-shift (I.e. 5th to 2nd) which is becoming more important as braking systems get better. It is easy to outbrake one's downshifting ability in many cars.

Charles, "Wha?"

In every car I have ever driven at Rd A that had no synchros and an H pattern (FM, FC, ASR) I would come into T10a in top gear, start to (lefty) brake, slip into neutral, bliping all the way, and, at the appropriate time, into the gear I needed for corner entry.

[Charles Warner]

Charles, "Wha?"

In every car I have ever driven at Rd A that had no synchros and an H pattern (FM, FC, ASR) I would come into T10a in top gear, start to (lefty) brake, slip into neutral, bliping all the way, and, at the appropriate time, into the gear I needed for corner entry.

Exactly as Bill Hewland said. You must keep the shaft speeds matched, either by "heel & toe" or, if left-foot braking, by blipping the throttle in neutral (not sure about the statement "bliping (sic) all the way" as only one "blip" should be needed.) In any event, matching the shaft speeds is critical if you are skipping gears.