Shipped a car and am not getting paid.

[Jtovo]

So, as some of you may know, I help people ship cars. I have helped a lot of guys out and never made a dime off of it. It takes a couple hours and a head ache or two to get this done...but I am good with it. I recently moved a car for a guy and am having problems getting paid.

If anybody knows a guy named, Robert Armington...could you please mention to him that he needs to pay his bill.

Below are our emails, which he says he will pay me. But the check never comes.

Been at track since Wednesday , I'll get it out monday when I'm back in office .
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joseph Tovo III" <JTovo@GoDNJ.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:37:19
To: 'Joseph Tovo III'<JTovo@GoDNJ.com>; 'Robert'<robert@alta-vista-llc.com>
Subject: RE: 94 RF to Sacramento ,Ca

Robert,
Have you been able to get a check out for the balance?

Thank you,

Joseph R. Tovo III
President
DNJ
V: 708-652-6700
C: 630-890-8113
E: JTovo@GoDNJ.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Tovo III [mailto:JTovo@GoDNJ.com]
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 2:15 PM
To: 'Robert'
Subject: RE: 94 RF to Sacramento ,Ca

Robert,
If you could send the balance of $250 directly to me, I would really appreciate it. I think you would agree that $1250 is a very good deal.

Joseph Tovo
253 Anthony St
Glen Ellyn, IL 60137

Thank you,

Joseph R. Tovo III
President
DNJ
V: 708-652-6700
C: 630-890-8113
E: JTovo@GoDNJ.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert [mailto:robert@alta-vista-llc.com]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 1:34 PM
To: Joseph Tovo III
Subject: Re: 94 RF to Sacramento ,Ca

Is there a discounted rate for picking it up in Hayward,Ca instead of Sacramento,Ca ?

Robert Armington
Regional Vice President
Alta Vista Holdings & Placement llc

On Apr 1, 2010, at 8:34 AM, "Joseph Tovo III" <JTovo@GoDNJ.com> wrote:

> Where should I sent the invoice for the other $250?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Joseph R. Tovo III
> President
> DNJ
> V: 708-652-6700
> C: 630-890-8113
> E: JTovo@GoDNJ.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: robert@alta-vista-llc.com [mailto:robert@alta-vista-llc.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:52 AM
> To: Joseph Tovo III
> Subject: Re: 94 RF to Sacramento ,Ca
>
> Done and done thanks again Joe !
> ------Original Message------
> From: Joseph Tovo III
> To: robert@alta-vista-llc.com
> Subject: RE: 94 RF to Sacramento ,Ca
> Sent: Mar 30, 2010 8:33 AM
>
> Robert,
> I am still on vacation, get back tomorrow. How is the car shipping
> going along?
>

[Daryl DeArman]

Joe,

For future reference are you a broker, forwarder, or a carrier?

[Roger Eade]

If you don't know the person that well, the cheque is not honoured by his granmother ETC, don't ship and release until the tin's in the bin, no matter how quick they say they will pay, you can't by food at the supermarket on credit, so why extend it to others
Roger

[rickb99]

...., you can't by food at the supermarket on credit, so why extend it to others Roger

Actually, up here in the States you CAN buy food on credit, Roger.

[Jtovo]

Daryl,
I am a broker, carrier and forwarder. I moved this shipment under my carrier authority.

I have moved so many cars and things for people on Apex and have gotten paid promptly, given extra, given tips, you name it. You guys have been great. First time that I have had to ask for my money like this.

To bend a fellow racer over for $250...seems wrong.

I have paid more than that to people I have done business with in racing just so I could hold my head up high. Even when I didnt agree with the numbers.

[Daryl DeArman]

To bend a fellow racer over for $250...seems wrong.

Not only does it seem wrong...it is almost inviting bad mojo. One of those paybacks tenfold type things.

I guess the lesson learned is not to release the shipment without payment in full, on the other side if the freight is prepaid based on a quote of X, stick to the quote of X***.

*** I don't know that this is the case. It seems for whatever reason someone thinks they should only be paying $1000, someone else thinks they should be paid $1250. The emails suggest that the car was picked up in Hayward, CA and not Sacramento, CA. Perhaps the $1000 quote was to Sac. The $1250 was to Hayward. Even if the original cost to either was $1000, reconsigning a shipment in transit has additional costs to the carrier.

[R. Armington]

[FONT=Tahoma]OK MR TOVO : [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]YOU QUOTED $1250.00 TO SHIP CAR FROM Cicero, IL TO YOUR WAREHOUSE IN SACRAMENTO CA, IN 3-4 DAYS ...[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]PACKAGE WAS DELIVERED TO YOU ON 3-22-2010 ..LATEST IT SHOULD HAVE ARRIVED IN SACRAMENTO WAS 3-25-2010.. WAREHOUSE GUY IN HAYWARD,CA TERMINAL( NOT YOUR SHIPPING MANAGER "BOB")CALLS ME FRIDAY 3-26-2010 AND SAYS THAT PACKAGE WILL NOT BE IN SACRAMENTO TILL MONDAY 3-29-2010 LATE AFTERNOON ! THEN HE CALLS BACK 1.5 HRS LATER AND STATES THAT "THERE IS NO WAY TO GET CAR OFF DOCK TO STREET IN SACRAMENTO WAREHOUSE " [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]SO I HAD TO CHANGE WHATEVER MY PLANS WERE , TO LOAD UP MY TRAILER AND GET TO HAYWARD( JUST OUTSIDE OF OAKLAND, CA) TO PERSONALLY UNLOAD(1.5HR) MY CAR @ MIDNIGHT !!! PAYED WHAT THE INVOICE INDICATED THEN AND THERE !!! SO IT WOULD MAKE IT TO MECHANIC AS SCHEDULED ... SO I COULD ACTUALLY MAKE IT TO THE FIRST RACE OF THE SEASON ...APRIL 9-10[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]MY 4.50 HRS IN DRIVE TIME ,1.5 HRS UNLOAD TIME, $168.00 FUEL ,$16.00 FOOD AND COFFEE, $8.00 TOLLS , AND JUST GENERALLY FINISHING YOUR END OF THE AGREEMENT IS WORTH MUCH MORE THEN $250.00....YOU REALLY DONT WANT TO PAY MY "NIGHTS AND WEEKEND RATES"[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]MAYBE IF YOU WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN ON VACATION , AND HANDLED IT YOUR SELF , OR JUST HAD DONE MORE RESEARCH ON THE FINAL DESTINATION , THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT..[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]YOU CAME HIGHLY RECOMMENDED FROM ALL ON APEXSPEED ,[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]I'M HIGHLY DISAPPOINTED IN THE WAY YOU MANAGED YOUR SERVICES [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]EVERYONE IS TIRED OF GETTING THE SHORT END OF THE SHIPPING STICK ....[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]AND TO THEN USE APEXSPEED AS A WAY TO "OUT ME " [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]YOUR FORGETTING CUSTOMER SERVICE 101[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][FONT=Tahoma]IF YOU WOULD LIKE WE CAN EXCHANGE INVOICES ?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]I SHOULD HAVE USED FEDEX !!!![/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]To: 'Robert'[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma]Subject: RE: Line Haul to my warehouse in Sacramento [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma]From:[/FONT] [FONT=Tahoma]Robert [mailto:robert@alta-vista-llc.com] [/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma]Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 2:02 PM[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma]To: Joseph Tovo III[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma]Subject: Re: Line Haul to my warehouse in SACRAMENTO[/FONT]

Hey Joe , how do you want to work payment ... Bob didn't have this info when I talked to him this morning .

Robert Armington
Regional Vice President
Alta Vista Holdings & Placement llc

On Mar 18, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Joseph Tovo III < JTovo@GoDNJ.com> wrote:
Yes, we can. I am out of town though.

DNJ

3411 S. Cicero ave

Cicero, IL 60804

Bob is our terminal manager and can assist today.

On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:30 PM, "Robert " < robert@alta-vista-llc.com> wrote:
[FONT=Arial]Joe , are you still able to do this ?? car could be in Ciero on Sunday 3/21/2010[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Jtovo [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Contributing Member[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]<image001.gif>[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Join Date: May 1st, 2001[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Location: Glen Ellyn, IL[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Posts: 782 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]<image002.gif>[FONT=Verdana]Line Haul to my warehouse in SACRAMENTO[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I can make this easy. If you bring the car to my warehouse in Cicero and load the car and spares into the trailer, $1250.00 ALL IN.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]If you want me to come pick it up and then bring it out to Sacramento, $1700.00[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]This will be to my warehouse in Sacramento, where your guy will need to come pick it up.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Let me know.... can have it on the coast is 3-4 days. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Please feel free to give me a ring , or email … as it all goes to same place … my hip ..[/FONT]

[FONT=Copperplate Gothic Light]Robert Armington[/FONT]
[FONT=Copperplate Gothic Light]Regional Vice President[/FONT]
[FONT=Copperplate Gothic Light]Alta Vista Holdings and Placement llc.[/FONT]

[dc]

Any post with a personal attack will be/has been deleted from this thread.

Handle this like adults, or the whole thread will get removed.

[RussMcB]

I'd vote for deleting the whole thread. No real reason to keep just the first few posts. Might be more fair to remove it all (rather than just the response from the accused).

You run a good ship, DC.

[Jeff Read]

Doug , I agree with russ. Remove the thread

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't know about deleting the entire thread. 758 views on the thread got to hear person A's account of what happened...attacking person B's credibility.

I think person B ought to repost his version of what happened and leave out the personal attack.

[BrianT1]

The way I see it is you get what you pay for, meaning joe provided a service at a cheap rate requiring some work on the part of the shipper to keep costs down. If you want door to door service I would think you would have to pay more.

I have known Joe for a long time and find him to be a fair and straight up individual.

Brian T.

[Keith Carter]

I have known Joe for a long time and find him to be a fair and straight up individual.

Brian T.

Unless you're on a kart track. Then he'll put you into the wall.

[BrianT1]

Your right Keith. Racing with Joe is a whole other issue. LOL.

Brian

[Jtovo]

1) I believe the rate I quoted was well below a commercial rate.
2) You never disputed the invoice amount with me, you said you would send a check
3) You have not responded to my requests for the status of the check.
4) I am sorry I went on vacation when you planned on shipping your car, I will be sure to not let that happen again.
5) I never would have taken this to Apex if you would have responded to the numerous emails that I have sent.

I would appreciate a check for the quoted and agreed amount.

[dc]

Seems reasonable enough... work it out boys.

[glenn cooper]

He typed in all CAPS!

[TimW]

He typed in all CAPS!

I suspect he's never been in Cicero, IL. Good luck getting angry there.

[Rick Iverson]

Fellas;

Joe transported my Lola from Cicero to Monterey six years ago. Unquestionably, both the best price and service - period.

Mr. Armington, it's up to you, but you might want to reconsider your position. We're pretty much family here, and this sort of thing doesn't ring. Pay the $250 and let's go racing, Bud.

Iverson

Post Scriptum - Joe, still waiting for your in-car video of the Runoffs.

[brownslane]

Mr Armington is now on my dead-beat list. No parts or services from Brown's Lane or Race Composites!

Tom

[R. Armington]

Mr. Tovo:

I shopped your quote for services , you were not the cheapest and you were far from the most expensive , I selected your company based on your reputation from fellow "apexers" and that you are a fellow driver ...and you would put more care into transporting this type of vehicle ...


The question is . if your having a red wings playoff party and the pizza delivery guy said he would deliver to your door @ PM , but later @ PM his office calls you and says that the pizza will not be available till PM and you have to drive 4 blocks to meet him for pick up .... would you still feel obligated to pay the full price of delivery let alone tip the driver ?

I payed the invoice at the time of delivery ... you never said there was more then 1 invoice ......till after the fact !

I'm generally not a confrontational person when it comes to such matters , i would usually pay the bill and put you on the "never use again list "... But this is now a matter of principal .....

As far as me telling you I'm sending the check --- well now you know what it feels like when your waiting on something important and it's late or not coming at all !!

please feel free to vacation

I don't feel this is a racing community issue ,, its a business issue ,, i would feel the same if it were a bowling ball or an elephant .

Robert

P.S. I did ask you about a discounted rate for partial delivery

From: Robert [mailto:robert@alta-vista-llc.com]
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 1:34 PM
To: Joseph Tovo III
Subject: Re: 94 RF to Sacramento ,Ca

Is there a discounted rate for picking it up in Hayward,Ca instead of Sacramento,Ca ?

Robert Armington
Regional Vice President
Alta Vista Holdings & Placement llc

On Apr 1, 2010, at 8:34 AM, "Joseph Tovo III" <JTovo@GoDNJ.com> wrote:

> Where should I sent the invoice for the other $250?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Joseph R. Tovo III
> President
> DNJ
> V: 708-652-6700
> C: 630-890-8113
> E: JTovo@GoDNJ.com
> -----Original Message-----

[R. Armington]

Fellas;

Joe transported my Lola from Cicero to Monterey six years ago. Unquestionably, both the best price and service - period.

Mr. Armington, it's up to you, but you might want to reconsider your position. We're pretty much family here, and this sort of thing doesn't ring. Pay the $250 and let's go racing, Bud.

Iverson

Post Scriptum - Joe, still waiting for your in-car video of the Runoffs.

I get it , but even in families there are disagreements ..

[Jtovo]

Joe Tovo
3411 S.Cicero ave
Cicero, IL 60804

please pay per the quote.

I will be expecting your check.

[R. Armington]

Joe Tovo
3411 S.Cicero ave
Cicero, IL 60804

please pay per the quote.

I will be expecting your check.

Joe ,, why don't you get some money back from actual shipper for the leg of shipment that they didn't complete ? that HAS to be worth something ?

not trying to be a smart ass , I'm just asking

Robert

[might return]

Come on you guys, there is the phone there is email, s$%t if it'll help, I'll throw in a $100 JUST TO END THIS. split the difference, how about Judge Judy?

[brownslane]

OK, you are both now talking to each other. Can we all ask that you take this off-line and resolve it?

Just asking, but I am sure that, if Robert is correct, that the delivery was later than promised, and that he had to unload himself, there should be a point somewhere between $250 and $0 that you BOTH can agree to?

I know that if this occurred, not because Robert changed the delivery point and needed to get the car ready to race, but because of a delay or mis-communication (it happens), then he should be compensated.

Guys, I had to write of a $4,700 bill I paid for an engine rebuild that was NOT done! Can you believe it?. I ended up having to have the engine shipped back to me in Canada, then ship it all the way to Seattle to have it properly done. Final bill (two engine rebuilders) cost me close to $9G's.

I did not get a dime back....but I had to let it go because it was eating me up inside....because I was in Canada and the thief is in Denver, I could not sue. Just too long and expensive. And it was eating me up inside.

So, I gave it to God to deal with. The result? I immediately felt better and "that guy" who cheated me is not having a good time in his business...it has caught up with him.

Everything comes agound, guys! Find a way to put this behind you! PLEASE!!

Thanks, Tom

[Jtovo]

My cell is 630-890-8113
my email is jtovo@godnj.com


Might,
I tried those ways, he won't reply or answer.

I'm done with it as well. I just wanted to warn others of people who don't pay their bills.

[Bill Bonow]

Joe helped me get a Formula First car from Chicago to Sydney Australia.
Excellent service for a very low price.
He'd be the first guy I'd call if I ever need to ship a car again.

[Josh Pitt]

i have had 3 formula cars shipped to me, and all flawlessly done.
what i dont understand is wasnt there a total amount for the complete transaction agreed upon before anything happened as far as moving the car.
everytime it is the same for me, we agree on the price and terms, and then go.

so why is it that the reciever seems to be surpirsed by another invoice after the delivery.

so either the buyer knew the intial invoice wasnt the total amout due, or the shipper never mentioned more $ over his intial quote.
so which is it?
was the final price ( both invoices) more than agreed upon, or the same?
that would be who owes who or not IMO.

I'm just saying..................

[Jtovo]

Not to fuel the fire....

The agreed price was $1250. The buyer offered to pay the person he picked the car up from, who had actually sent me an invoice for $1000...this is not the norm.

The car was shipped from my warehouse in Cicero to CA. I handled the portion in Chicago to the railroad $250. My agent in CA took it from the rail to their warehouse $1000 which is including the rail cost.

I never presented him with an invoice. The price was $1250 and he said he would send a check.

[carnut169]

Dante-

Racing is a sport full of the unexpected. Ever hear the expression "if it was easy everyone would be doing it"?

It's also a tight-nit group of folks- I miss the relationships (at the track) as much as the racing itself!

Where am I going with all of this? I understand your disappointment about having to spend a day picking up your car but we are NOT talking about a Pizza being delivered.

If you buy a tire and it leaks, you might not get credit for another one. If your engine blows the 2nd day after having it rebuilt, you might have to pay for it to be fixed. Ifr someone runs into you on the track- you pay to fix your car. Fair? no, I suppose not. However, in this tight-nit group of folks you will find people willing to loan you the shirt off their back- their spare engine, another tire, or work all night (without pay) so you can get on the track the next morning. It's the good with the bad, but it's all about relationships.

This is not the way to start off building those relationships. $250 just is not worth it.

I'd chaulk it up to a misunderstanding, get Joe paid up and let's hear about your new car!

Sean.

[Rick Iverson]

This is not the way to start off building those relationships. $250 just is not worth it.

Yep, sounds about right to me.

It's also a tight-nit group of folks - I miss the relationships (at the track) as much as the racing itself!

And when can we expect you back?

Iverson

[carnut169]

Rick- I'd love to be back as soon as possible. In fact, I'll be at Road Atlanta today driving the pace car!

Good with the bad- Tuesday I was laid-off. So I'm selling toys, looking for another job, doing my best to not let this effect the kids.... racing (even karts) is way off in my future.

Life= curve-balls. It's up to us to adjust and drive them out of the park!

[dc]

Life = curve-balls. It's up to us to adjust and drive them out of the park!

Damn skippy.

[Daryl DeArman]

Life= curve-balls. It's up to us to adjust and drive them out of the park!

With that attitude I'm certain you will.

[R. Armington]

Not to fuel the fire....

The agreed price was $1250. The buyer offered to pay the person he picked the car up from, who had actually sent me an invoice for $1000...this is not the norm.

The car was shipped from my warehouse in Cicero to CA. I handled the portion in Chicago to the railroad $250. My agent in CA took it from the rail to their warehouse $1000 which is including the rail cost.

I never presented him with an invoice. The price was $1250 and he said he would send a check.

Tovo, you never said that you would send me an invoice , I paid the $1000.00 invoice when I picked up my car because they handed it to me !!!! not my fault if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, maybe some instructions to all party's involved would help your next customer ...

Joe I'm tired of going around and around with you on this ,,,
there are risks that we all take on the track , damage , faulty equipment , reckless driving .... But this is not on the track and I would treat this the same if I was moving a couch !
you did not deliver to the destination per our agreement , and if you had , the car would have been 4+ days late and there was no way to get it off the dock to street level (as per shipping supervisor in Hayward )

I'm in the services industry as well ... and I never get paid for work that I fail to complete on schedule let alone work that is incomplete ...... you must be out of your skull if you think that business works that way

I don't care what the circumstances were ..... where you were, who was supposed to do this or that ..... none of it matters ....

There should be a credit coming from someone for the shipping that never took place between Hayward ,CA and Sacramento,CA ... you are more then welcome to it !!!

If for some reason you cannot grasp the idea that YOU FAILED your task of getting the car to its destination on time as agreed then I guess we should figure out what % you did complete .. put a price per mile on it and delete it from the original amount ....to see what is fare ... but right now it looks like your agent in CA owes you $ for not completing their end of your agreement ..

This is a business transaction and not personal issue ... I would have hoped to of handled this in more of a professional arena instead of to high school kids face-booking for the world to see !!! But you can't go back now can you ... lesson learned I hope !

[Jtovo]

"I never presented him with an invoice. The price was $1250 and he said he would send a check."

Just curious...
Why don't you reply to emails or call to discuss?

This is clearly a dead issue. The quote was 1250 to move the car from Chicago to you in CA. I did my part.

Enough is enough. Clearly your not paying and I'm done asking


Good luck to you.

[Larry]

...there are a few guys who ALWAYS look for any reason to either reneg on a bill or to justify only partial payment. The good news is that they are few, and usually not in racing. Unfortunately, that part of the unpaid bill often represents whatever meager profit that was planned for the exchange.

The second rule of business is that employees, suppliers and subcontractors get paid before the boss gets paid.

The third rule is "No good deed goes unpunished."

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[dc]

Ok, I think this has traveled it's course here on ApexSpeed.... the parties involved can choose to ignore each other or deal with this offline. I don't think anything else needs to be thrown onto the fire.