Radiator and Water problems on FB

[Richard Dziak]

Ok....I have owned my F1000 for 2 1/2 years. On my most recent race, I noticed that the radiator was leaking water and coolant. I removed the side pod, and removed the radiator and took it to my local radiator shop with 30 years of experience and someone that could handle an aluminum radiator repair.

After pressurizing the radiator, it was determined that the tubes were fine, but on the bottom INNER ledge it was leaking and could NOT be repaired.

He stated the likely cause could be "electrolysys" in the water. He stated that I could have an improper ground or a short causing the water to be electrified. The engine runs great. No reported electrical problems.

He also suggested using "distilled" water and no antifreeze. He could not repair the radiator, and did not charge for the service. So there was no incentive to take the customer for a ride in repair charges.

Has anyone heard of the "electrolysis" in the water, and what type of fluids do you use in your FB radiators?

Can this "electrolysis" cause engine damage if it damaged the radiator?

I will have a new radiator built, but do not want to go thru this again.

Has anyone heard of the product called "wetter water" to fill the radiator?

Comments...feedback...suggestions .... most welcome.

[RobLav]

Entirely feasible - yes. Use distilled water.

The cooling system can end up functioning just like a battery - with an anode and a cathode (and electrolysis). Umpurities in tap water will conduct electricity. Use distilled water.

I'm sure other guys will have additional comments and clarifications...

[rickb99]

Yes to all of the above.

Using distilled water (available in the grocery store) is the same stuff your mother used to put in the iron to prevent mineral build up.

ADD water wetter to the distilled water cooling system in the CORRECT proportion on the bottle. It reduces the 'vapor barrier' between the water and the hot surface. Improves cooling by as much as 20% and has water pump lubricant in it.

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10

P.S.
Don't bother with the premix. Just buy the small bottles. In proper proportions, one of the small ones is good for 3 fills in our FC.

P.P.S.
Using distilled water and antifreeze in your street car will reduce (eliminate) corrosion problems there too.

P.P.P.S.
NEVER use antifreeze in your race car during the summer months. Antifreeze can (and will) REDUCE the cooling property's of the water by as much as 50%. That's one of the reasons street car cooling systems are so big.

It's also why you do not want to run pure antifreeze.. duhh.

Use antifreeze over the winter if you store the car 'wet'. But drain before the start of the season. If you race in cold weather (like we do), well.. Six of one three of the other.

[glenn cooper]

Isn't that the process that is for removing unwanted hair?

Yeah, totally can appen, just not used to hearing about it on a racecar.
What exactly prevented them from performing a repair?
Is the rad in question made up w/ plastic end tanks like the ubiquitous VW Schriocco rad?
It sorta sounds like the rust through happened in the core area, not the tank.
If that was the case, you could have cut the affected tube, crimped it over on itself like a toothpaste tube 'bout used up (both sides of cut), then covered it in epoxy.
This would take one row out of the cooling effect, possibly not even noticeable.

Water Wetter is one of many products that reduce the surface tension of water, basically allowing it to conform to all the twists and turns in the complete cooling system. The more surface area that can be contacted, the more efficient the cooling will be.

Electrolysis usually works it's wicked way on the thinnest metal in the system, on a street car that would be the heater core. Many shops when experiencing this will actually make a ground strap from the heater core over to a place on the metal structure of the car in an attempt to give the electrons a place to go.
Whether or not this is accomplishing anything remains questionable.

[rickjohnson356]

if you do have some kind of failure on the track, the anti freeze will make the surface extremely slippery, possibly causing a fellow racer to lose control of their car. not good!

Anti freeze is a real no-no. use the water wetter as indicated in prior posts.

[Richard Dziak]

Thanks for the replies......I will flush the engine with fresh distilled water and then once I get the new radiator from Phoenix Race Works and have it installed, I will use the distilled water with the Redline product "Water Wetter".

[Wren]

if you do have some kind of failure on the track, the anti freeze will make the surface extremely slippery, possibly causing a fellow racer to lose control of their car. not good!

Anti freeze is a real no-no. use the water wetter as indicated in prior posts.

This. There was a death recently at an HPDE that started with anti-freeze on the track sending a car out of control.

[formulasuper]

if you do have some kind of failure on the track, the anti freeze will make the surface extremely slippery, possibly causing a fellow racer to lose control of their car. not good!

Anti freeze is a real no-no. use the water wetter as indicated in prior posts.

I was just thinking (I know, that could be dangerous), the SCCA GCR should have the "no antifreeze" rule somewhere but I couldn't find it. Anyone know if it's in there or if not, why not?

[rickb99]

I was just thinking (I know, that could be dangerous), the SCCA GCR should have the "no antifreeze" rule somewhere but I couldn't find it. Anyone know if it's in there or if not, why not?

Although I certainly agree with you and RickJ about the safety issue, that would be rather tough.

Due to the reduced cooling efficiency of water/ anti-freeze mix you really do not want it in a race car.

On the other hand, our club has its first Enduro race on the 27th of March. Chances are 60% probability that one of the nights at the track the ambient temp could drop below 32 degrees even if daytime temps go into the mid 60's. I suspect many of the cars will have some antifreeze in them. We also have a last race in October (Enduo at Portland Indernational) which can experience below freezing night time temps. So it's kind of hard to mandate no antifreeze.

HPDE cars are mostly daily drivers which there's a 99% chance they have antifreeze. On the other hand, as you should flush the cooling system once a year. You could drain the antifreeze at the end of the freeze season, fill the system with distilled water then add antifreeze back in at the beginning of winter..... problem solved.

All that said, I do agree that antifreeze shouldn't be allowed. But that would add a burden to tech. inspection verifying every cooling system is antifreeze free. On the other hand, drivers SHOULD be advised of the hazards of antifreeze on the track and from a technical stand point, I DOUBT many appreciate the reduction in cooling efficiency which may lead them to see the logic of getting rid of it.

[JakeL]

Looks like I'm a bit of a counterpoint to this post, which isn't usually my role. Here goes:

First, it's certainly possible that electrolysis caused a failure to your radiator - I don't suppose I'm more qualified than a guy with 30 years in the radiator biz.

That said, also likely is simply that age and vibration caused the failure. We vibrate the heck out of these cars and engines. I myself experienced a similar failure on my Stohr's radiator, which was about 3-4 years old. I had it epoxied a few times, and it never really took, so I replaced it this winter.

Point being, after 2.5 years of light-ish racing, there may be other parts on your car that bear a closer look for age, fatigue, lifing, and such.

Second point being, I guarantee that you will "go through this again" with some other aspect of the car - parts fail on race cars (and all cars) from time to time, so one should just be prepared for it and plan/act accordingly.



As for the antifreeze argument, there is no such rule in the GCR that you can't run it.
Specifically in regions of the country such as Colorado (i.e. where I'm from), it's an unavoidable evil. For example, the forecast for today's high is 72*, and by Friday, the forecasted high is 30* with snow. For much of the year, you can't run the risk of NOT having antifreeze in your engine, since it's likely you could freeze it overnight. Every spring our message board sees a few messages about folks that froze their engine over winter, on the way to a race, in the trailer, whatever.

So, for what it's worth, I run antifreeze in the Stohr year-round, at approximately 25% strength, (June/July/August are our only for-sure safe-from-freezing months) and have never had any water cooling issues, so it's definitely doable, even on a car that's so marginal on cooling as a Stohr DSR. During the winter, I flush and go to a standard 50/50 mix to make sure nothing freezes when the shop gets to 30 below.

Racing in the snow is a singular experience though!

-Jake

[rickb99]

...Racing in the snow is a singular experience though! -Jake

So, you do that too?

March 2009 6 hour Enduro.

1st shot:
When the track was still good and the battle was ON!

2nd shot:
About 90 minutes later. Drivers meeting.. do we race on or call it? It was called as the racing line you see in the background was the ONLY section of track without 2" of snow cover. Track sweeper truck had made several passes on the straight.

3rd shot:
The paddock during drivers meeting.

4th shot:
Classic March Enduro Podium. Wear boots!

We are 10 days away from the 2010 version.

I just bet the cars will have antifreeze in them

[kea]

I worked for a VW dealer, many, many years ago and I remember a service bulletin came out within a year of the introduction of the new VW Rabbit. We had to short circuit something in the wiring, that had to do with the electrically controled radiator fan. This was in response to problems with current passing through the rediator and causing it to corrode, plug-up and thus over-heat.

[Richard Dziak]

My water and radiator problem started about 6 months ago when I first noticed a small amount of water near the side pod and on the diffuser. A small amount. I was never sure if it was the radiator or just some water or dampness from the track. The radiator was an OEM aluminum rad which came in the car from the constructor. The radiator sits in a molded groove with a rubber padded bottom. When I pulled the radiator out, one could never tell there was a leak, nor was there any evidence that the bottom on the radiator had any penetrations to the radiator due to vibration. It was the green substance of the anti-freeze that I could determine it was a radiator leak.

The leak is on the inside bottom ledge. All tubes when placed under pressure testing held up. The radiator guy could not repair it as he stated it would need to be cut apart and plasma welded.

While I have had great feedback here, I have a few other questions.

If there is electrolysis in the water, how do I determine what is causing the electrolysis?

Is there any sort of electrical testing that I can do?

If there is electrolysis can this damage the Suzuki internal parts.

What is the amount of water that these engines hold? 1 gallon? 2 gallons? etc.

I suspect that once I purge the existing water and any remaining coolant the new radiator should hold up well, I hope. I will use the "water wetter" by Redline.

Phoenix Race Works now produces their own "in house" radiator for the F1000 at a cost of $195.00 vs $350.00 newly produced from "an outside sourced vendor."

My radiator that went bad was aluminum without any plastic which many car radiators are.

While I have owned the Phoenix F1000 I have had NO major problems, just a few minor issues. Recently the spawn nut that holds the Taylor Quiffe differental, started to turn lose. I fabricated a plate to hold the flange nut so it would never turn, other than that the car has been flawless in the performance and no major problems reported.

As for "2.5 years of light-ish racing" The George Dean prepped motor (2006 Suzuki) has 1900 miles and 49 hours recorded on the AIM dash. The engine runs as if it was new. It has been flawless in performance until the incident with the radiator.

Granted I am a regional racer, so I don't really run the motor to extremes, so the useage may be considered "light-ish racing".

I have used the car as evidenced by mileage and hours recorded probably more than the average F1000 owner. I have over 22 to 24 races, same # for qualifying runs and practice runs, and many "open track days" at my local track.

So I consider the car to be holding up in excellent condition. In fact the car looks almost showroom new. I do expect to encounter issues which would be expected. And yes, there are many factors that can add to increased problems, especially vibration.

Thanks for all the feedback as my learning curve is steep and the input here on ApexSpeed is a wealth of knowledge and experience from many talented individuals which helps us all learn more about our own cars and racing in general.

I biggest concern at this time is "how" to determine any electrolysis and how to proceed with a cure.

[Purple Frog]

Not that it's relevant here, but, remember maintaining good grounds is very critical on race cars. I've seen cars with faulty grounds end up using the throttle cable as a ground lead. I noticed recently on some high end NASCAR engines that they even have little ground straps between the heads and the block, and the engineers I asked about it did not think it was overkill.

[rickb99]

Okay, another reason to use distilled water. "Good" distilled water has a highly reduced level of electrical conductivity (another reason your mother was told to use it in her steam iron).

If your radiator hole really was from electroysis through the tap water, the distilled water will stop it.

On the other hand, ethelene glycol (anti freeze) is a poor electrical conductor also. I'd look for another cause for the hole besides electrolysis and, use DISTILLED water with Water Wetter in the future.

[Charles Warner]

Steve Jenmnings recommends draining the water system between races and storing either dry or full of anti-freeze. Then refill and bleed before each event.

[924RACR]

I'm definitely one of those evil guys who runs antifreeze; I just make sure it stays in the engine.

Having had to scrape frost off of my racecar's windows in an open paddock before I can go race (numerous times!), I don't think that practice will be changing anytime soon.

Distilled water is certainly nice to have... but a PITA if you're refilling etc...

[formulasuper]

Not that it's relevant here, but, remember maintaining good grounds is very critical on race cars. I've seen cars with faulty grounds end up using the throttle cable as a ground lead. I noticed recently on some high end NASCAR engines that they even have little ground straps between the heads and the block, and the engineers I asked about it did not think it was overkill.

Geez, what material are those NASCAR guys using for head studs?

[kea]

Vaughn,
If you end up leaking an anti-freeze mixture on the track, with the outer formula-sport racer's, they will not be very happy.
We use the Redline Water-wetter, because it has a rust inhibitor and a water pump lubricant. I do not recommend the use of anti-freeze.

[rickb99]

Geez, what material are those NASCAR guys using for head studs?

As I too have seen this before I'll take a bit of a guess at it. The head gasket acts as an insulator to electrical currents. They 'jumper' ground the head to the block to be REALLY sure they have a good ground for the plugs and, it may help keep the currents from flowing through the head bolts.

May also be concerned that lubed head bolts are not providing a really, really good ground for 500 miles of super heated racing.

Just a guess.

[Jon Jeffords]

NEVER use antifreeze in your race car[/B] during the summer months. Antifreeze can (and will) REDUCE the cooling property's of the water by as much as 50%. That's one of the reasons street car cooling systems are so big.

In my previous life of stationary engine cooling system design, we would increase the radiator size 3% for every 10% of ethylene or propylene glycol in the coolant.

In other words, a 50/50 coolant mix resulted in a 15% increase in radiator size.

Regarding electrolysis limits, here's one source:

http://www.underhoodservice.com/Arti...uirements.aspx

"Stray electrical currents that use the coolant as a conductor can rapidly corrode heater cores, radiators and other metal parts in the cooling system. Electrolysis can occur when the corrosion inhibitors in the coolant break down and/or when electrical loads can’t find a normal path to ground except through the coolant. A common cause is loose, corroded or undersized ground connections between the battery, charging system, engine or body."

"Electrolysis can be checked with a digital voltmeter by dipping one probe into the coolant and touching the other to battery negative or ground. The check should be made with the engine idling and a heavy load on the charging system (lights and other accessories on). Anything over 400 millivolts is too much."

[rickb99]

Excellent info, Jon. Thanks for posting.

I knew ethylene glycol reduced cooling efficency but that's the 1st time I've seen it quantified to what we typically use 50/50. Don't know where I saw 50% but it might have been for higher ratios.

Do you have any thoughts on the benefits of distilled water cooling instead of tap water to reduce electrolysis?

[Wren]

I think $195 sounds like a good price for a new radiator. You might also be able to send your old one to Dustin and see if he can do anything with it.

Racecars are about the most punishing thing I can imagine for parts, for this to be your first real problem is great.

[Mike B]

Electrolysis is a real problem, but I doubt that's what did in Richard's radiator. In a previous job, we would see an occasional radiator or oil cooler leak on class 8 trucks that could be attributed to electrolysis, but only after about 300,000 miles. I'm certain Richard's failure is due to vibration and fatigue. As was previously stated, a race car is a pretty severe environment and things break. That's why we carry spares.

The more minerals in the water, the more it will conduct electricity. Hence, the distilled water recommendation.

[Alain]

Very good discussion here, including near unanimous agreement that Distilled water should be used in the cooling system. Wonder If anyone has comments on the Driver Tech article in the October 2010 Victory Lane magazine (page 19) that argues strongly against using Distilled water, due to its propensity to attack metal, particularly aluminum. Those of us running vintage FF with water in the chassis tubes are curious.

[Albatross]

Boaters have that electrolysis problem, too. So,perhaps another way to solve your electrolysis problem is to purchase 1 or 2 of those 3 lb zinks from a marine supply store and attach it somewhere on the chassis. That will help with better handling as an added benefit.

[Phil Creighton]

Scott
We had to run grounds from head to block and intake manifolds on our ALMS car, 6 liter Ford - its a resistance issue I guess. We had one that just wouldn't fire up without them although run in on the dyno. Just used radio shack lightweight electrical equipment braided gound straps. I too questioned why it didn't ground via the head bolts and was given a non- committal answer.The head grounds were an issue years ago on our Camel Light Buick V6 years ago - same recommended fix, extra grounds - even though they ohmed out at low resistance.
Phil

[Phil Creighton]

One interesting thing I learnt in 96 with a Cosworth pump engine is that you need a corrosion inhibitor if there is any magnesium in the water system - and to a lesser extent with aluminium. There are always tiny air bubbles running through the system.
We were running Water wetter and de-ionised water at the time - we talked with Redline and found that water wetter has no more corrosion resistance than the water. We ended up using a corrosion inhibitor or antifreeze, distilled or de-ionised water, and diesel engine Water wetter (blue stuff) on their recommendation to stop corrosion of the main water passage that ran through the mag cosworth oil pan on our Chevy.
Phil

[Alain]

Albatross.....funny, and I agree that my handling could use some improvement, but the question brought up by the Victory Lane article remains: Distilled vs tap (or softened) water in the cooling system?