formula atlantic for regional races and track days

[TKF Chicago]

Hello everyone,

My son and I race shifter karts and tag karts. I would like to get an rt4, db4 or db008 for regional races and track days. I need something for him to progress forward in driving skill and to learn more about chassis set up. Then possibly rent a ride in a national. For now its for fun for him and me. I think Atlantics are a good choice because they are the next level from shifter karts in speed and handling. I would spend 30 to 40k plus what ever it takes to maintain. I have people in the area to help with the set up and technical. I was involved with an IMSA GTP team in the 80's. We had a Chevy powered Spice. I have a some experience with gearboxes, diffs, shocks, setup and maintenance. I don't think we will be completely lost. Part of the fun will be learning the car together.

Any suggestions or comments??


Thanks
Tom

[kea]

I don't personally feel that this class of car is what you want at this time. I think you would be better off learning about setup and handling on a vehicle that a) will have less available tire contact, b) with a motor/drivetrain that is less temperamental and c) of a size/class that you may find others at a regional level to compete against. I've have known some others in the past, who tried to make the jump, too big too soon and I feel it's had a long term effect and taken some of the fun out of it. Racing should remain fun.

[JByers]

Tom,
If you have your heart set on FA then one of the Swift 008's that K-Hill or Swan have for sale would be a good choice in the price range you mentioned. Coming from shifter karts I would think your son would prefer the sequential shifter over the H-Pattern, so that would eliminate the DB4 or RT41 unless they have a conversion kit installed.

Don't discount FC, it would be a great training ground for him. Driving a formula car on courses with high speed corners requires skill that karting does not offer when you are adding 800-1000lbs of mass.

Jason

[RobLav]

Put the kid in an F1000.

[Purple Frog]

Put the kid in this:
www.F2000ChampionshipSeries.com

[Charles Warner]

I think you would be better off learning about setup and handling on a vehicle that a) will have less available tire contact, b) with a motor/drivetrain that is less temperamental and c) of a size/class that you may find others at a regional level to compete against.

While I would love to sell you an RT-4, listen to Keith. FC gives you the best of all worlds for learning and costs a lot less.

[formulasuper]

Put the kid in an F1000.

I agree, A 1000cc motorcycle engine powered car would fit right into a shifter kart driver's style. Just ask 16 year old Phil De La O!

[TKF Chicago]

Thanks guys,

These are some good points. What are your thoughts on FE cars? That was another choice I am considering. My son does well with the VW R32 I have for track days, as far as bigger, heavier cars go. He is 14, we have the same helmets so the people at the track don't know whether its me or him. Its fun beating up on guys with their Vipers and Vette's that can't drive. I think what ever we get, its going going to get wrecked at least once. An RT4 as a training tool would be fun. If it gets wrecked it would be cheapest of the Atlantic's to rebuild. FF2000 and Formula Enterprise are a possibility. We will both be driving what ever we choose.

Let me know what you think.


Thanks guys

Tom

[kea]

Tom,
If you are looking at it from the safety aspect of a wreck, which one would you rather be in? I'm thinking that vehicles newer than an RT-4 would have an edge.

[rickb99]

Thanks guys,

These are some good points. What are your thoughts on FE cars.... An RT4 as a training tool would be fun. If it gets wrecked it would be cheapest of the Atlantic's to rebuild. FF2000 and Formula Enterprise are a possibility. We will both be driving what ever we choose. Let me know what you think. Thanks guys Tom

I think you're coming to your senses. Formula Atlantic is a HUGE leap off the cliff from any Kart experience.

I won't comment upon FE as we have no experience there.

I WOULD as several have done above suggest FC as a good starting point in open wheel from Karts. Why?

1.
It does have wings.
2.
Will add about 25 to 30 MPH to your top end from 125cc shifters.
2.
Takes a 'solid' effort to learn chassis setup to be fast.
3.
Better to learn full size car cornering dynamics.
4.
NOWHERE near the cost of FA to fix it if (WHEN) you sustain damage compared to FA.

NOTE:
With Van Diemen or Reynard FC's there are suppliers who can have 'fix it' parts to you within a week at worst.

5.
MUCH less cost in the periodic engine rebuilds with the Pinto (or a 'long life' Zetec).
6.
Initial purchase price for a 'good' car will be half what you're talking about unless you go Zetec.

FC's are not too difficult to move in to and you'll actually have more competition to play with at the club level regional events then FA.

[Bill Kincaid]

Tom, if you're in Burbank CA you should get in touch with Dave Freitas and Bobby Oergel. They have a wealth of experience and field pro teams. And you should come out to Auto Club Speedway this weekend for the Pacific F2000 opener- they'll both be there.

[mazda17]

A FE car would be a better alternative to an FA for regional racing and track days. The operating cost is much lower than FA and is lower than any other winged formula car other than a FM. We ran 10 races so far and we are still using all but 2 of the same gears and the same brake pads.

[TKF Chicago]

Hello guys,

Points well taken. I also like FE cars because they have the Ford/Mazda 2.3 four cylinder that's tuned for about 170-180 hp. for the class and an easier chassis to set up. You could get a reliable 300 hp out of one for(fun)track day use. We would have to go easy on diff and gearbox etc.. Tires are bit wider than FF2000, but not nearly as wide as FA. It could be a good car car to grow with, possibly. FF2000 isn't out of the question either. It seems people like or are partial to FF2000 as a stepping stone. FA might seem nuts, but I might be coming from a different place than most.

More comments or opinions will be helpful.


Thanks
Tom

[RussMcB]

If the goal is to learn about chassis set up and maximizing driving skills, then you want to be on track with a lot of people getting the most out of their cars. Otherwise you don't have a good yard stick. A 300 HP track car would be a blast, but how would you know if you were really setting it up and/or driving it to its limits?

[carnut169]

I think that if you did get 300hp out of the FE motor you would damage the trans in short time, plus the chassis/ safety is not designed for 300hp. Why would you even consider putting a 14 yr old in a death trap? His shifter was what, 45hp? Even the Atlantics don't have that HP.

If you want to take him to the next level go to the next regional race at your local track and see which open wheel class has the most participation. I think he'd grow more in a full field of FFs than in an FA by himself.

I also like the idea of a F1000- they are faster than everything but a national FA, cost a ton less, and really do have the cool factor. I'd buy a Phoenix.

Next choice would be an FC (Zetec). Reliable, fast, and you've got the option of running the F2000 series which is ultra competitive.

[El Guapo]

Tom,
The first race of the year for the Pacific F2000 series is this coming weekend (March 6th & 7th) at Auto Club Speed way in Fontana. Why don't you come out and take a look at our cars and our series? Maintainence costs are way less than FA, yet the cars are fairly quick. We have had drivers as young as 14 in this series previously.

Peter West
"AKA" El Guapo
F2000 #99

[Rick Kirchner]

El G - you drivin this weekend?

[El Guapo]

Yep...

EG

[SStadel]

Tom, As the local CSR for FE, I think you would be very happy with the car/class. It has a sequential shift like the shifter kart. There have been a lot of drivers coming from shifter karts to our class. Feel free to contact me anytime. I also know of a car in your area that is for sale. Its a very low time car that just came on the market. I also have cars for rent at Regionals, Nationals or Autobahn for lapping. 815-297-3673.

[Stan Clayton]

Tom,

I'll give you my perspective as a dad who put his teenager son in a Ralt RT-41 Atlantic (the best FA of its day) straight out of 2 years of every weekend shifter kart racing.

1. Any youngster who has the physical and emotional skills to consistently run and finish near the front of a *real* shifter kart field, without crashing into other folks and causing "sportsmanship" issues, can successfully transition directly to an FA. By *real* I mean full race fields, not a few cars at a karting experience. At this point, only you know if your situation meets that criteria, though from the sounds of it, it could.

To a competitive shifter karter, the first experience in an FA was perfectly captured by my son's comments after his first on-track session. When I asked how it went, he replied "Dad, it was like a big, heavy, slow kart...with better brakes." That's right, to a good karter a 1300 pound Atlantic will feel like a fat pig at first. Yes, it's faster than a kart on straights and in high speed corners, but it carries a lot of inertia, too. Comments about shifters having "only" 40 hp totally miss that point.

2. FAs can be affordable to purchase, but tend to be white elephants to maintain. That's because every component is highly stressed and tweaked to near its absolute limit. In more than a dozen years of owning and racing FAs, I have spent at least $500 per hour of track time, exclusive of consumables (tires, wings , gas...) and travel costs and entry fees. The engine needs a $6000-$8000 rebuild every 10-12 hours, and the gearboxes consume dogs and gears like there's no tomorrow.

Older designs like the Swift BD-4 and the Ralt RT-4 are even worse than the later cars from those same companies. The DB-4 suffers from perennial tub delamination issues, and lots of parts for both cars are getting hard to find. Besides, they are popular as vintage cars where they can be pampered like the princesses they are.

For your Atlantic bang-for-the-buck award, the Swift 008 is hard to beat. They are not quite as quick as a Ralt RT-41 or a Swift 014, though, which explains their lower asking prices. Just be aware that if you buy one, you or someone will become an NST gearbox expert if you are to keep it on track.

3. An FC-Zetec or an FE is 90% of the fun and outright performance of an FA for a fraction of the per-mile cost. To tell the truth, if I were doing it today I would get one of those two cars, with a possible nod to the FC-Zetec. They lack the high-winding muscle of an FA, but since they have more torque and are 100 lbs lighter, they come close to making up the difference. You can also bang on them weekend after weekend, just pouring gas into the damned thing. It's not that they're "low maintenance"...they use the same components as Atlantics, they're just lower stressed. That is...except for their geaboxes if you are thinking of a power boost, which have a practical hp limit of about 190 hp.

4. An honorable mention should go to the Star Pro Mazda, which has a carbon Atlantic tub, 6-sp sequential Hewland and a 6-port Renesis engine, though you won't find one in that price range.

Hope that helps.

Stan

[rickb99]

.....I have spent at least $500 per hour of track time, exclusive of consumables (tires, wings , gas...) and travel costs and entry fees. The engine needs a $6000-$8000 rebuild every 10-12 hours, Stan

$500 was our TOTAL 'parts' expense for Jeff's entire 2008 season in FC (bent A-arm and sheer bracket, my fault) excluding consumables and no broken gears or dog rings! About 18 to 20 hours of T&T, qual/racing time.

Ran a reduced schedule in 2009 but did have to replace a damaged (very old, like 19 years) diffuser for about $290.

FC engine refresh/rebuild about $2,500 to $5,000 depending.

[TKF Chicago]

Tom,

I'll give you my perspective as a dad who put his teenager son in a Ralt RT-41 Atlantic (the best FA of its day) straight out of 2 years of every weekend shifter kart racing.

1. Any youngster who has the physical and emotional skills to consistently run and finish near the front of a *real* shifter kart field, without crashing into other folks and causing "sportsmanship" issues, can successfully transition directly to an FA. By *real* I mean full race fields, not a few cars at a karting experience. At this point, only you know if your situation meets that criteria, though from the sounds of it, it could.

To a competitive shifter karter, the first experience in an FA was perfectly captured by my son's comments after his first on-track session. When I asked how it went, he replied "Dad, it was like a big, heavy, slow kart...with better brakes." That's right, to a good karter a 1300 pound Atlantic will feel like a fat pig at first. Yes, it's faster than a kart on straights and in high speed corners, but it carries a lot of inertia, too. Comments about shifters having "only" 40 hp totally miss that point.

2. FAs can be affordable to purchase, but tend to be white elephants to maintain. That's because every component is highly stressed and tweaked to near its absolute limit. In more than a dozen years of owning and racing FAs, I have spent at least $500 per hour of track time, exclusive of consumables (tires, wings , gas...) and travel costs and entry fees. The engine needs a $6000-$8000 rebuild every 10-12 hours, and the gearboxes consume dogs and gears like there's no tomorrow.

Older designs like the Swift BD-4 and the Ralt RT-4 are even worse than the later cars from those same companies. The DB-4 suffers from perennial tub delamination issues, and lots of parts for both cars are getting hard to find. Besides, they are popular as vintage cars where they can be pampered like the princesses they are.

For your Atlantic bang-for-the-buck award, the Swift 008 is hard to beat. They are not quite as quick as a Ralt RT-41 or a Swift 014, though, which explains their lower asking prices. Just be aware that if you buy one, you or someone will become an NST gearbox expert if you are to keep it on track.

3. An FC-Zetec or an FE is 90% of the fun and outright performance of an FA for a fraction of the per-mile cost. To tell the truth, if I were doing it today I would get one of those two cars, with a possible nod to the FC-Zetec. They lack the high-winding muscle of an FA, but since they have more torque and are 100 lbs lighter, they come close to making up the difference. You can also bang on them weekend after weekend, just pouring gas into the damned thing. It's not that they're "low maintenance"...they use the same components as Atlantics, they're just lower stressed. That is...except for their geaboxes if you are thinking of a power boost, which have a practical hp limit of about 190 hp.

4. An honorable mention should go to the Star Pro Mazda, which has a carbon Atlantic tub, 6-sp sequential Hewland and a 6-port Renesis engine, though you won't find one in that price range.

Hope that helps.

Stan

Hello Stan,

This is very helpful and it seems unbiased. I have similar thoughts, If we go easy and he doesn't try to be a hero the first few times out, it could work. It's a judgment call. I will see if we could get some seat time in a few of the cars mentioned.

Thanks
Tom

[mazda17]

The Star Pro Mazda is also a good option in terms of operating costs. Those transmissions last longer than any other class as I put 10,000 miles on mine without changing any parts. The engines can also easily last 10,000 miles between rebuilds. The operating costs are about the same as FE, but a good used Pro Mazda will be at least 80K.

[TrackBrat]

I do not have any behind the wheel experience but from working the corners and track for years here is my two cents. I think coming from karts to a race car you can't just jump into the fastest car right off the bat, at least in most cases. Atlantic is pretty much the fastest cars we have out there, and also probably the highest expense cost next to GT1,GT2.

An Atlanic will race on the track with other cars that will be slower, and knowing when to pass and not when to pass is something that you need to know. Closing speeds can be incredibly fast and results can be nasty.

FE and FC are good stepping stones, plus there is competition in those classes at almost every event weekend. Think it would give you a chance to be racing with similar cars and working on your driving skills. You also don't want to be fixing a car all weekend and trying to figure out problems instead of optimizing the car.

Like I said I don't have behind the wheel experience but working the corners I have seen a vast spectrum of drivers in various cars and such. just my two cents.

[rickb99]

..... I think coming from karts to a race car you can't just jump into the fastest car right off the bat, at least in most cases. Atlantic is pretty much the fastest cars we have out there, and also probably the highest expense cost next to GT1,GT2.

An Atlanic will race on the track with other cars that will be slower, and knowing when to pass and not when to pass is something that you need to know. Closing speeds can be incredibly fast and results can be nasty...

Agree with that Brat.

Chicago.

Take Stan's comments very seriously. He knows of what he speaks for sure and his son, Rennie is an exceptionally talented driver.

Yes, I first met the 2 of them when they were on their hands and knees (well, Rennie was) cleaning broken gears out the the transaxle while Stan provided 'support'. They seemed quite expert at it and you could tell it was not a unique experience for them.

Yes, Rennie made that race and set a track record that stands to this day in FA. Just about 1.5 sec off the ultimate lap record held by Mark Jaremko in a Stohr D/SR (set 5 years later in a fresh factory car). And you have to appreciate, Mark is insanely fast!

To give you some idea of the 'serious speed' FA's make, the FC lap record is 7 seconds slower set by a very talented National driver, Bob Gelles. Bob also packed his 6' 3" in to an F500 and set the lap record in that class too. It was broken by 0.003 seconds 6 years later.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

Are you willing to adopt a 34 year old son?

[mousecatcher]

The operating costs are about the same as FE,

i have both, and the PFM is roughly twice as expensive to operate in my experience. Once you have crash damage, well then the cost difference really goes up.

but a good used Pro Mazda will be at least 80K.

If you need a 2010 spec car. There are many 2008 spec cars available, real prices should be about $50-$55k (plus the $5-$10k you're going to have to put into any used car). In just one year the price difference between most any Altantic should even itself out after operating costs come into play.

I think the main problem with PFM is that it could be hard to find enough competition to gauge yourself against.

If FA cost is in your budget, I'd ignore all other factors and go to mylaps. Find the tracks that you would run and pick a competitive class from 2009 data. Don't just look at car counts, look at how close the field is. I'd also give a nod to FE, they are so easy to maintain.

[TKF Chicago]

Hello everyone

Thanks for the helpful suggestions and comments.

Stan, you must be a proud dad.



Tom

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks Tom (and Rick). Yep, Rennie does a great job and I'm looking forward to decades more sharing motorsports with him. Good luck with your car, whatever you get! Stan

[Randy Cook]

Tom,

If your heart is set on an Atlantic, let me mention another one to consider, one that I've enjoyed over 10 years, the Reynard 92H. The beauty of the Reynard is that it's a quick car, (OK, Rennie out qualified me by 0.13 seconds in our first National this year), and you don't have to concern yourself with any transmission problems as it has an FT-200 that you can't break if you try.

I'll be happy to let you know all I know about them if you like.

Randy Cook
rwcook3@comcast.net

[tonyc]

As an owner of a Reynard 93H Atlantic, I'll second Randy's comments. After 20 years in a flat-bottom atlantic, I'm still learning how to drive this car fast (my first ground effects car), but I believe that with the right driver and set-up these cars can still be regionally very competitive.