Spec Intake

[eospeed]

Committee members\Club Members

On the FV spec intake I know we can make one that will cost around $400.00 US and match the power of the best ones we have out there or whatever power level you all see fit.There is no reason not to do it other than personal agendas that particular people have within the class.Whether it is selling engines making manifolds or prepping cars .

Under the current guideline myself and over 30 others will have non compliant intakes at the end of this year.I for one am tired of feeling the need to buy a $1000-1500 intake every 12-16 months .I could spend that on tires ,travel or entry's. In a time where cash is tight for everyone it will not serve anyone well to spend our racing budget on nonsense like updating intakes constantly.Also this will let everyone have a good intake because we all know Brad has Nobles best, Steve O has Mike K's best, Mike V has Hardings best and so on.Now we can all have something within .5% of the next guy.

With the new production techniques we have today there is no reason to be concerned about a .5% flow standard.Everyone I have heard protest that this cant be done is A not in the industry and B has no proof they just dont want to give up a perceived advantage.

The manifold I obtained for you all to look at and test was never here for a HP comparison and anyone that assumed that was very wrong.My intention was to see what they had made and how it would fit our cars then how we could implement there idea for our use.That is all, from that point we could pick a tubing diameter and make our own part.No restrictors ,no carb mods ,no additional head work necessary.Anyone claiming that you need a new carb or head is just blowing smoke to sell more intakes\engine parts they have no data , no experience and certainly no proof.

You all have a chance to do something very good here for the future of our class.It will be a shame if the original idea is ruined because everyone wants to twist the rule or scuttle the ship for there own benifit .It is a very simple thing that is being made over complicated by people who dont want to lose income an have no data to support there claims of additional work necessary.

All that said lets not ruin a great thing for the many buget racers in our class so that the few can continue to polute the class with border line intakes that the average Joe cant get. I myself have changed intakes 3 times in the last 3 years in an effort to keep up. I could have done another 6 race weekends had I not felt it was a must have part to buy. If we keep going in this direction I will change classes and you all will continue to push more young drivers out of your class and into more cost effective classes with cars that have new technology and appel to the younger generation( a Formula F with a honda is cheaper to run now -crash damage) .I truly beleve this is the first of many steps we need to take to keep this class growing in our country.



Erik Oseth
Quicksilver RacEngines
FV #66
SCCA member # 268077

[Matt King]

I hope this is the direction the FV committee recommends. I'd be equally happy to see it implemented as an alternate manifold, thus allowing those who already bought a $1500 manifold to keep theirs and be matched by someone who only spent $400!

[budawe]

Very good post Eric. While your company cannot be considered exactly impartial, your knowledge is well respected. That said, everything I have learned about induction research stresses that it is a system and not a group of individual components. To say that changing manifolds will not effect carbs, heads and even jetting is a bit naive. Naive, unless Quicksilver becomes the chosen vendor like it has been with the Vetec or Fit engines. I have no problem with a spec manifold but I do have 3 caveats. 1. That it not be required. Let the folks run what the brung. ; 2. If it is measurably better than existing manifolds, a restirctor plate must be used. and 3rd. If there is an exclusive vendor for the manifold, that it not be an engine builder. What we don't need is someone cherry picking manifolds out of an inventory for their friends and customers.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I'm curious as to why there is a perception that a new manifold is required every year??? Eric, you mention you bought 3. Why did you feel the need to buy all of those to keep up? Was someone approaching you every year and telling you they had a better manifold that you needed to keep up? Was it your own idea?

I guess that's where I'm confused. Everyone keeps saying we need a spec manifold to stop the insanity of having to buy a new one every year, but I don't know anyone who has. I've bought 1 new manifold in the past 5 years, 2 in the past 10. Where is the crisis in that???

[eospeed]

Everytime I have got a batch of intakes from here or there if was better than what I have that means anyone else I line up next to could have it to.So I get one or borrow one steal one an Im sick of it. Every year its well if I do this it could be better or pull it like that.There is always a new trick and you of all people know this well.

You just got a new intake as of last year.I cant say what was on your car before that.You may have purchased 2 but how many have you tested \ been through to get where you are? I bet most wont admit because it is insane.

You may not agree and maybe I am wrong but I think you are the vocal minority.

I'm curious as to why there is a perception that a new manifold is required every year??? Eric, you mention you bought 3. Why did you feel the need to buy all of those to keep up? Was someone approaching you every year and telling you they had a better manifold that you needed to keep up? Was it your own idea?

I guess that's where I'm confused. Everyone keeps saying we need a spec manifold to stop the insanity of having to buy a new one every year, but I don't know anyone who has. I've bought 1 new manifold in the past 5 years, 2 in the past 10. Where is the crisis in that???

[eospeed]

I agree on almost all fronts. The great thing about the spec intake is it will work just the same as the ones we use now , only it will be the same every single time.If we size\shape it to the current manifolds there is a non issue, no need for a restrictor. No need for everyone not to have to use it at the Nat championship 2 years down the road because we are racing cars here not intakes.Spend your $4-450.00 and see if you drive as good as the guy you line up next to. I think your right about the vendors. It should be sold by the manufacturer to the racer maybe even 1 per club member and a 2nd can only be purchased when you return the first one in broken condition.

Erik

Very good post Eric. While your company cannot be considered exactly impartial, your knowledge is well respected. That said, everything I have learned about induction research stresses that it is a system and not a group of individual components. To say that changing manifolds will not effect carbs, heads and even jetting is a bit naive. Naive, unless Quicksilver becomes the chosen vendor like it has been with the Vetec or Fit engines. I have no problem with a spec manifold but I do have 3 caveats. 1. That it not be required. Let the folks run what the brung. ; 2. If it is measurably better than existing manifolds, a restirctor plate must be used. and 3rd. If there is an exclusive vendor for the manifold, that it not be an engine builder. What we don't need is someone cherry picking manifolds out of an inventory for their friends and customers.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

But why is the manifold such a focal point? It is no different then carbs or cylinder heads. Every few years someone figures out how to make them a little better, and people have to choose if they feel the need to upgrade.

Is the manifold such a hot topic because it's easy to test so people can see a difference? I've seen a bigger difference in heads then I've seen in manifolds, and the heads are WAY more costly to test / install. Yet no one is crying for spec heads. Why not?

We have had one major change in manifolds over the past 5 years, and we are willing to go to such radical extremes as a spec manifold because of it? This whole thing seems like a knee jerk reaction to me, and reactions like this usually result in unknown consequences down the road.

There are way to many unanswered questions for me to get onboard this idea. No one has been able to answer for me who is going to control the cost of them? Rumor is a difference between .5% and .1% on the spec manifold. I'm assuming that will be flow numbers, which translates to a larger then .5% to 1% difference on the dyno. People will be willing to pay more for manifolds on the top end of the range, and guess what - we are back to where we started, expect now everyones current manifolds are worth zero.

These will be no different then the current situation. Builders will buy a large amount for all their customers, sort them, then sell them based on ranking. Why wouldn't they?

I just don't get why this one particular item has so many people in an uproar. Look at shock prices, fuel cells, data systems, ect, and by comaprison, the manifolds have remained stable over the years.

[eospeed]

The main problem is the average Joe cant get an intake as good or as quickly as you can. As far as the heads are concerned your right if everyone felt the need to do all the head testing we have and I guess you have up there I think they would want a "spec head".It is easy to pull off the intake but that is not why it is on the chopping block.

Next the focal point should be driving and car prep\building.I dont think the Idea of Formula Vee was to have a intake manifold pulled 1 inch taller than a stock one with two small rabbits stuffed in the ends.I do think that Formula Vee intended to let us modify the cly heads within a limit to our liking and you are free to do that to your hearts content.

E

But why is the manifold such a focal point? It is no different then carbs or cylinder heads. Every few years someone figures out how to make them a little better, and people have to choose if they feel the need to upgrade.

Is the manifold such a hot topic because it's easy to test so people can see a difference? I've seen a bigger difference in heads then I've seen in manifolds, and the heads are WAY more costly to test / install. Yet no one is crying for spec heads. Why not?

We have had one major change in manifolds over the past 5 years, and we are willing to go to such radical extremes as a spec manifold because of it? This whole thing seems like a knee jerk reaction to me, and reactions like this usually result in unknown consequences down the road.

There are way to many unanswered questions for me to get onboard this idea. No one has been able to answer for me who is going to control the cost of them? Rumor is a difference between .5% and .1% on the spec manifold. I'm assuming that will be flow numbers, which translates to a larger then .5% to 1% difference on the dyno. People will be willing to pay more for manifolds on the top end of the range, and guess what - we are back to where we started, expect now everyones current manifolds are worth zero.

These will be no different then the current situation. Builders will buy a large amount for all their customers, sort them, then sell them based on ranking. Why wouldn't they?

I just don't get why this one particular item has so many people in an uproar. Look at shock prices, fuel cells, data systems, ect, and by comaprison, the manifolds have remained stable over the years.

[Wren]

Naive, unless Quicksilver becomes the chosen vendor like it has been with the Vetec or Fit engines.

QS is not the chosen supplier of either of those things to club racing.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have no problem with a spec manifold but I do have 3 caveats. 1. That it not be required. Let the folks run what the brung. ; 2. If it is measurably better than existing manifolds, a restirctor plate must be used. and 3rd. If there is an exclusive vendor for the manifold, that it not be an engine builder. What we don't need is someone cherry picking manifolds out of an inventory for their friends and customers.

How is it SPEC if it isn't required?

If you mean an alternate approved manifold is introduced where said alternate manifolds are all the same....I get it. I feel this is the way it should be introduced. The introduction would not force anybody with a currently legal manifold to buy another.

I DO feel it should be marginally better than the best known manifold today. IF it is merely equal you will sell many (lazy and easy way to catch up in the manifold race) however, it is probable there will be something better and legal in short order. I feel this is important because until the club can write an enforceable rule for the FV manifold technology they will continue to be improved upon. The class doesn't need to be right here again in 2 or 3 years.

There will be some variance from one produced part to the other. I don't know how you effectively stop people from parts bin blueprinting. Even if "they" are only allowed to buy one...their neighbor, cousin, brother, sister, etc. will buy one. Stamps and SN's are easy to duplicate. If the rule isn't enforceable it isn't worth having...IMO.

[budawe]

Good dialog guys, I think Michael is asking a good question about why this has become such an issue. Frankly. it's politics. Had Brian Harding been part of the "in group" this uproar wouldn't have happened. Why wasn't there a big stink when the last generation of manifolds came out? Was it due to the fact that a major engine builder was the benefactor and main marketor? Who knows. Truth be known that development will always go on, it's part of our sport. The SRF folks have proven that efforts will continue even though there are seals and specs galore/ Ever hear of buying several engines from Engterprises and dynoing them yourself? It happens and it's the natur eof the beast.

Just remember there are dozens of vee racers out there that don't care about the latest craze and don't even want to be forced by the GCR to spend more money.

[samiam520]

IMO there are two different groups of racers here. The National guys and the Regional guys. I could see some benefits of a spec manifold for National racing, however, making regional racers that don't care as much about winning races spend another $400.00 will just add to the dwindling fields. Every year it's another added cost to get to the track. If it's not a new drivers suit specs, its new helmets. If its not new helmets, its mandatory head and neck devices, or new belts, or etc, etc, now it's manifolds. it's just a bit frustrating. Here in the SF region a set of tires cost about the same as a "spec Manifold" and I know guys that can only afford to purchase one set of tires per season. Of course, our spec tires will last almost a whole season. IMO this added manifold cost will just keep more cars in the garages.

I think its pretty obvious that most people running in the FV class are middle class income people. I don't think it is in the best interest of the class to mandate another added cost.

[Daryl DeArman]

making racers that don't care as much about winning races spend another $400.00 will just add to the dwindling fields.

Which is a good reason why I think it should become an approved alternate. It forces nobody to buy one, and those who have a legal manifold today will have a legal manifold tomorrow. Introducing it a $400ish also means that those who want to keep up in the intake manifold war can do so for less money.

[samiam520]

Daryl,

As long as it performs about the same as a good current manifold and is not "Mandatory" then we are in complete agreement.

Introducing it a $400ish also means that those who want to keep up in the intake manifold war can do so for less money.

That is why I think it would have some merit at the national racing level.

[Bruce]

Right now no one knows what the cost of a spec manifold will be, adding another part to the equation only adds another unknown. Remember a manifold is only a part of the intake system. Changing one part by itself does not equate to better performance and it is only a part of the cost if one goes that way. The total cost is unknown.
I would rather they just add the changes to the rules given to the committee by the manifold constructors. This, I would say would be the easiest and cheapest. There is no new part to purchase or manifold updates needed unless you want to. Your choice.
I concur with Brian's assessment on why we are here now. I personally feel that of the top 20 or so of the runoff racers all had the same power. What M. Varasin had over the others was a great handling car and an exceptional knowledge of the track. His trap speed was not the best in fact it was only average. Where he exploited his advantage was in the corners. Watch the video and you will see that it is faster driving the line rather than going 2 or 3 wide through the corners.
He drove a flawless race.

[Daryl DeArman]

I would rather they just add the changes to the rules given to the committee by the manifold constructors.

Check your PM in a minute.

[eospeed]

I think it was not a big deal when the first ones came out . Progresion is a good thing but when the 2nd and 3rd came out that was enough for me anyway. This is bigger than Brian Harding I have seen everyones stuff and honestly Mike's new intake blows Brians away . So Brian is not the issue at hand altho his statements\ego (about his adds and performance ) on these boards would have you beleve otherwise.He is a very smart man and I do repect that. With that said this is bigger than him. If we dont go spec than this is what happens because an alternate manifold will not stop future development.


1 At the end of next year 90% of all intakes will be iilegal the 2011 rule for 1.051 in the bends go nogo will make sure of that

2 Mike , Steve and Brian all sell us new intakes to be legal and we all buy them

3 6-12 months later we find out 1 or more of them has found a way to make them better after playing with the new dia for awhile

4 Nothing changes no new people come into our class because if your not part of the GOB=Good Ol Boy network you dont get the good stuff and you dont get it right before the runoffs because you dont make the top 5 and there are only 4 good parts.

5 in 10 years all the nat drivers need walkers and ontrack nursing because all our top drivers are over 60 and no young guys can afford your F1 tech 1200cc Vdubs

SRF cannot be used as a referance. I have seen that engine shop there was a dyno and a bench grinder a tool box and a toilet . Thats why you need 3 motors to get a good one and that is not the case here.


E





[quote=budawe;245776]Good dialog guys, I think Michael is asking a good question about why this has become such an issue. Frankly. it's politics. Had Brian Harding been part of the "in group" this uproar wouldn't have happened. Why wasn't there a big stink when the last generation of manifolds came out? Was it due to the fact that a major engine builder was the benefactor and main marketor? Who knows. Truth be known that development will always go on, it's part of our sport. The SRF folks have proven that efforts will continue even though there are seals and specs galore/ Ever hear of buying several engines from Engterprises and dynoing them yourself? It happens and it's the natur eof the beast.

[samiam520]

Nothing changes no new people come into our class because if your not part of the GOB=Good Ol Boy network you don't get the good stuff and you don't get it right before the runoffs because you don't make the top 5 and there are only 4 good parts.

This issue has nothing to do with why new people don't come to FV

12 months later we find out 1 or more of them has found a way to make them better after playing with the new dia for awhile

Or...... Brian Harding has found that by porting the heads differently for the spec manifold he can increase the HP. Oh boy, now we need a new set of $1,000.00 heads. This is racing, this will always continue. If you don't like it buy a FE or SRF and just have fun.

in 10 years all the national drivers need walkers and on track nursing because all our top drivers are over 60

This is true, and is an discussion for another day.

[Matt King]

Or...... Brian Harding has found that by porting the heads differently for the spec manifold he can increase the HP. Oh boy, now we need a new set of $1,000.00 heads. This is racing, this will always continue. If you don't like it buy a FE or SRF and just have fun.

Manifold development has proceeded on a steady pace for the past couple of years, so even today, this is a concern. If a Monster Manifold is worth 1.5 hp on the current heads, what makes you think that continued head development couldn't increase that to 2 or 2.5hp? Adopting a cheaper alternate manifold might at least save you enough money to buy the new heads are that inevitably going to be developed regardless of what rules changes are implemented for manifolds. The only way to avoid this is to make most of the manifolds developed in the past couple of years illegal to discourage further development in cylinder heads to match their already improved performance.

[Bruce]

Erik,

You must be getting information none of us is getting. I do not see how you know there will be a rule change and be as specific by giving a rule dimension, proceedure no one else has any knowledge of. Is this how we as a group will be getting our rules? No discussion, no input, just we will be told by you.

How do you know 90% of manifolds will be illegal? Where are you getting this information? Do you have access to all the manifolds in the country? The only ones that are gathering this info is the committee and they promised to keep this information private.

The original intent of our class was to be innovative. That is why we are a restrictive not a spec class. I see no reason to change now. We have 5 new FV drivers going to school in 3 weeks, 2, which are under 20 years of age and both are being supported by their parents. Racing usually is beyond the means of most of the younger crowd. Are you now against the elder?

Your assessment of the SRF shop is funny, But confusing. Are you saying that they are too incompetent to use for comparison or are you saying your shop will be the manufacturer of the spec or both? Sounds a little conflicting.

[samiam520]

I guess I have to agree with Michael V. I just don't understand the seemingly out of proportion focus that is driving this whole issue. This is racing, it has always been this way and will always continue this way with this type of rules structure. I, like many, like the ability to make modifications to increase my performance and possibly give myself a edge over my competition. That, in my mind, is what racing is all about.

IMO, there seems to be an underlying issue here that is driving this whole thing.

[DaveB]

Here is a link to a phone poll out on the Left coast. Interesting.
http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index....lay&thread=910

[Hardingfv32]

There is no way to connect class or car costs with competitor participation. We have no statistical info about the importance of "the class" cost effectiveness. SRF head counts are dropping just like FV, as an example. While cost effectiveness seems to be a logical positive, there is in fact no statistical evidence to support this. You see the same thing in medicine these days. Take the prostate PSA test. It is now being shown that the PSA test has no effect on the number of men dying from prostate cancer. The test is valid, but it has no effect on the death rate.

All intake manifolds do not cost $1000. Only the competitors who need the best, say a Runoff competitor, spend that kind of money. These competitors also buy $1000 shocks and new tires every other race. Since the majority of Regional competitors do not spend this kind of money on shocks and tires, why do we assume they feel forced to buy a $1000 manifold. Do we have any statistical information proving this is not the case?

Brian

[kea]

Bruce,
Is Erik is trying to wind you up so he/they (Quicksilver, listed as his identity) can sell you something. Like they did to the FC group (camshaft, flywheel) and F/Ford (Honda), well, not the whole group on that one. Just a couple of board members who deceided they knew better than everyone else in that class. I also like his comment on how the Honda is cheaper to run....no one really knows at this point.

[eospeed]

Bruce,
Is Erik is trying to wind you up so he/they (Quicksilver, listed as his identity) can sell you something. Like they did to the FC group (camshaft, flywheel) and F/Ford (Honda), well, not the whole group on that one. Just a couple of board members who deceided they knew better than everyone else in that class. I also like his comment on how the Honda is cheaper to run....no one really knows at this point.

Lets get something strait because clearly you do not have the facts

FC cam \ flywheel

We were asked by the club to do that and were the only one's willing to spend our own money to do so. I wont name names you can ask around and find out

Honda

I\we (quicksilver) did not "sell" that to the club honda paid us to do the dyno work.HPD sold it to the class the vote were overwhelming in favor of it. I get the same price that you do if you or I call

I based my comment on the honda being cheaper to run assuming it is half as reliable as the zetec at that point it is cheaper to run.Tires cost the same.Honestly by the standards Honda uses these days to build engines I would bet a years pay its cheaper to run and out lasts the zetec .

I know your upset about the HPD\Fit rule in FF an thats why I think your on me here.You were very vocal about it.While I dont think I ever realy piped in lets all be honest here.I have no interest in making or selling FV intakes spec or otherwise. I race in the class and I have been around it more than most of you old timers as I watched my dad and helped since I could walk.I might have a clue here but you fight the battle you see fit.


Erik

[problemchild]

Wow, is that a low blow!

Talk about shooting the messenger. That is like shooting the messenger's butler

[eospeed]

Erik,

You must be getting information none of us is getting. I do not see how you know there will be a rule change and be as specific by giving a rule dimension, proceedure no one else has any knowledge of. Is this how we as a group will be getting our rules? No discussion, no input, just we will be told by you.

How do you know 90% of manifolds will be illegal? Where are you getting this information? Do you have access to all the manifolds in the country? The only ones that are gathering this info is the committee and they promised to keep this information private.

The original intent of our class was to be innovative. That is why we are a restrictive not a spec class. I see no reason to change now. We have 5 new FV drivers going to school in 3 weeks, 2, which are under 20 years of age and both are being supported by their parents. Racing usually is beyond the means of most of the younger crowd. Are you now against the elder?

Your assessment of the SRF shop is funny, But confusing. Are you saying that they are too incompetent to use for comparison or are you saying your shop will be the manufacturer of the spec or both? Sounds a little conflicting.

I am not making or selling anything here and I am not against older people that is funny.I am merely commenting on what is going on right in front of your face( depending how much and where you race).If you dont agree and cant see through the smoke you can cast your vote when a new rule comes out like us all. I think that is great that you have 5 V drivers coming up I hope they deside to stay in the class. Do you think they would want to buy a 4-500 intake with there new car or a 1200 every couple years.I know all my friends the same age as me (except very few) cant afford it.Are they going to buy a 25k vortec and go nat racing prob not but I hope so.You can name the nat racers in FV under 35 on one hand right now.

I know that my comment on the rule is right Im not going to say much more if you dont want to beleve thats fine.Im not naming names here

And the SRF engine shop, to incompetent to compair to anyone of the buisness's that quoted on the spec intake price I know I saw, but that should change thanks to Mike Davies being onboard as of a week ago.

So to be clear Quicksilver will not make , sell ,or even be involved with any of the conversations about this part.I on the other hand plan on racing for the next 25 years so I am concerned because I can see the writing on the wall maybe its a generational thing idk.I feel the need to make you guys aware of what I know because I am going to buy 1 more intake for a FV for the rest of my life.

So I have nothing to gain here and only money to lose just like you


Erik

[samiam520]

Erik,

I know that my comment on the rule is right Im not going to say much more if you dont want to beleve thats fine.

I feel the need to make you guys aware of what I know because I am going to buy 1 more intake for a FV for the rest of my life.

So are you saying that nobody else can have an opinion on this? You talk in such absolutes. I just cant figure out where you are coming from regarding this.

Can you predict the future and your not telling us that you have this ability??

[eospeed]

Erik,

So are you saying that nobody else can have an opinion on this? You talk in such absolutes. I just cant figure out where you are coming from regarding this. Can you predict the future and your not telling us of this ability??

Everyone can have an opinion.Where I am coming from as I see the class dying slowly in the next few years we should see a rapid decline in FV nat participation.The only thing that will help is to bring in new blood at the top level.A turn key car that can run up front right now brand new would be 25-30k there is no way around that.Guys ( and girls) that are 35 and under dont have that kind of income normaly.I have watched my father race from day 1. I want to continue to race the same cars and one day maybe my child can(I love the class ) but with the direction things are going in now I think the class will be gone in 8-10 years.Again this is what I have concluded you dont have to trust me do as u will.Predict the futurn no but I have been close enough to the club and privy to enough talks behind the iron curtain that I can see it coming.


Erik

[Hardingfv32]

His father is on the Committee, this is not unexpected or that big a sin.

Maybe the FV Committee is letting him float the trial balloons to see what the responses will be. You know, just like they do in Washington DC.

Brian

[eospeed]

His father is on the Committee, this is not unexpected or that big a sin.

Maybe the FV Committee is letting him float the trial balloons to see what the responses will be. You know, just like they do in Washington DC.

Brian

I think they all know but thats not where I herd it.Now maybe you should try to drag my dads name in the dirt ehh nice.

[Bill Bonow]

A turn key car that can run up front right now brand new would be 25-30k there is no way around that.

Erik,

I think your low on your estimate. If one "qualifies" to purchase a Vortech, the basic kit (no fuel cell or exhaust) is in the $14k range. Another $11k will get a car on the track that will run up front? I'd bet the money that I don't have that it won't.

[Hardingfv32]

If one "qualifies". Have to admit that is a nice marketing touch. Can charge more for the exclusivity.

Sharp to highlight that point.

Brian

[Bruce]

Bruce L.,

You might want to jump in here, If what Erik is stating as fact on a rule change and it goes as he has stated, I think the committee will have alot of explaining to do. I thought the committee can only give recommendations. I did not think they hold more power than the group. I would have expected the committee to ask the group for suggestions or at least what they think of the proposed rule.

The trouble with the manifold rule could have been avoided. The committee was given a set of rules that the people most knowledgeable had offered. We could have voted on them and it would have settled that issue. We could then have taken our time and gotten the information on the Spec. right. It seems like it will be at least 2 more years before anything will or can be settled there, in the mean time we would of had a stable rule in place.



Bruce

[Bruce Livermore]

Just to clarify: The quotes the FV committee has received so far have been to duplicate the existing Australian FV 1200 "Control Manifold" that they implemented in 2004. These provide us with a first cut estimate of what it would cost to build something similar.

We have an estimate of $450 per part from FastForward Components. We were told larger lots would be less but sadly we do not know the lot size at this price. The price would include serializing and documenting whatever details were deemed important (flow, weight per section, OD's at critical locations, wall thickness, opening diameters, etc.), and certification that each part met the performance criteria we would require. It includes an allowance to cover some yield loss for parts that need to be scrapped because they don't meet the spec. Using this source would also provide a non-FV related resource to certify that a given manifold had not be tampered with if that issue came up.

We have another estimate from Russell's Tube in Indianapolis to provide complete manifolds for $245.50 each in lots of 100 or $267 in lots of 50. They could also provide just the bent to dimension "tube sets" (from which someone else could fabricate manifolds) for $100.50 per set in lots of 100 or $103.75 in lots of 50. The tubing quoted is 1-1/4" OD by .065" wall 304 Seamless Stainless Steel. This is the tubing size of the Aussie part for both down and cross tubes. We might want to change one or both of these tube sizes and were told it would not significantly change the price. There would be a $250 set-up charge to run a lot of this size. Russell would simply provide the manifolds or tube sets, "to print". A third party would be used to document and certify compliance, etc.

We are also awaiting another estimate from a tube forming and sheet metal fabrication shop that has shown interest.

Erik and QS have had nothing to do with this estimating process and are not being considered as a supplier. To insinuate otherwise is completely uncalled for. Certainly there will be financial implications in any transition to a spec. manifold and they need to be considered from all sides. But to imply that Erik is promoting a spec. manifold for his personal financial gain is pure BS.

Erik has provided assistance by acquiring the sample Aussie manifold from a contact down under. He forwarded it to a series of other FV engine builders, manifold makers and committee members for them to see and evaluate as they saw fit. He then did some dyno testing of his own with it to get a feel for how it worked compared to other manifolds he had in his possession.

Let's keep it real guys.

Bruce

[Bruce Livermore]

The trouble with the manifold rule could have been avoided.



Bruce

In so many ways, in so many ways...

[Bruce Livermore]

Bruce L.,

You might want to jump in here, If what Erik is stating as fact on a rule change and it goes as he has stated, I think the committee will have alot of explaining to do. I thought the committee can only give recommendations. I did not think they hold more power than the group. I would have expected the committee to ask the group for suggestions or at least what they think of the proposed rule.

The trouble with the manifold rule could have been avoided. The committee was given a set of rules that the people most knowledgeable had offered. We could have voted on them and it would have settled that issue. We could then have taken our time and gotten the information on the Spec. right. It seems like it will be at least 2 more years before anything will or can be settled there, in the mean time we would of had a stable rule in place.



Bruce

As I have said before, we will publish the data and our recommendation soon. If I understand correctly, the subject has been discussed at the FS/RC level but apparently they did not reach a decision. I was hoping it was done already, but I don't have that information yet myself.

Again, we can and do only make a recommendation to the FS/RC and then they take it forward to the CRB if they chose to (or they come up with their own proposal or whatever). the CRB then mulls it over and blesses or nixes it. Then whatever the CRB decides goes out for member input.

Bruce

[joshuagore]

Ignore this post.