Yes, it needs anti intrusion bars to pass tech, but there are a lot of FB's without ARB's of any kind.Originally Posted by mousecatcher
Here is some helpful advice: You will need an oil cooler, these engines are largely cooled by the oil.
Yes, it needs anti intrusion bars to pass tech, but there are a lot of FB's without ARB's of any kind.
Here is some helpful advice: You will need an oil cooler, these engines are largely cooled by the oil.
Gentlemen, I suggest that things lighten up a bit & let him bring his car to the races & let's see what happens.
However I do agree that there are some homologation issues but those can be fixed.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
alignment
I can tell from the pictures how you align the front end, but can you show and explain how you align the rear? thanks much.
john f
Good grief, would I like that to be true.SCCA doesn't even advertise here. LOL.
Good cover.
I'll give you credit for at least trying to build a car, even if the results leave a bit to be desired if this car is supposed to run in FB.
1 - The tube nose structure needs to hit the trash can. Not only do the rules require a crush box, but anyone with even the slightest experience knows that a tube structure up front is a real no-no.
2 - Unless there is something I cannot see, I'd expect the rear bellcrank mounts to last maybe half a season assuming even medium stiff spring rates and the normal road racing track abuse. If you want them to last, the base needs to be spread over a much larger area in line with the bellcrank, or the leverage the welds will see will fatigue them very quickly - especially if they are MIG'd and not post-weld drawn back.
3 - The fuel cell has to go for sure. The best place for the cell is behind the driver, and it has to have a complete surround of alu panels.
4 - The plastic seat will be a back breaker in a rearward crash. While none of the clubs that I know of actually ban seats like that, no one with any experience will ever allow one in their car any more. Even if it is an aluminium seat, the mounting and support leaves a lot to be desired. Custom molded and fitted bead seats in an aluminium panel surround is the standard nowadays.
5 - No forward braces from near the top of the dash hoop to the front bulkhead. Required.
6 - The solidly-bolted alu dash will be a knee killer in severe frontal crashes when the frame collapses and tries to stuff the drivers knees back thru the dash hoop.
7 - Depending on just how decent the brakes are, I'd expect to see the rear suspension have issues very quickly.
8 - Solid axle is inexpensive - good point. Solid axles create a lot of push - bad point. The solid axle will substantially limit the cornering capability compared to a real differential and proper IRS.
9- Torsional stiffness is of utmost importance for good handling and good tuneability. I see very little in that frame. Expect even a bad car to have 3000 ft.lbs/degree - good cars in this class nowadays are well over 6000.
10 - Can't see the floorpan attachment. The rules for FB don't mandate a "stressed panel" (bad decision in my estimation), but they are necessary for both safety and frame stiffness.
11 - Your horizontal sleeve joints in the rear, while cheap, will create a LOT of friction, killing a lot of potential grip. These haven't been used on any serious road racing cars in 30 years or more.
12 - MIG welding 4130 is a real no-no in a safety structure, even if you draw it back with a torch, I suggest that you pick up an AWS welding manual and study it. Penetration is only one of many factors in a good weld.
13 - Track looks narrow. If it is, expect a lot of weight transfer, in turn limiting the ultimate grip capability.
14 - Needs ARBs for sure for tuning.
There may be a lot more in what I can't see in those pics, but that's enough for now.
No.It simply seems to me that the people on this forum want to push excited, gutsy & talented people away from "their" sport.
It's that we've seen this sort of "inexpensive" car being introduced all the time over the last 40 years by people like yourself with a lot of enthusiasm, but with very limited knowledge base of the performance capability of the class they have chosen. That usually adds up to the car being dangerous, not only to the driver, but to those he is sharing the track with, and ultimately a wast of the customers money.
These FB cars are not only capable of 150+ speeds, but also capable of 3+ G cornering, lap after lap. Quite frankly, these are not cars that the average guy can just plunk himself into and drive safely.
To give you an idea, Trans Am or GT1 cars with 700 hp will run around Mid Ohio in something like a 1:29 or 1:28. A decent Formula Ford with only 117 HP and no wings will run 1:30 without much problem. These cars will by next year be running 1:20 or so. That 8 - 10 second difference puts these cars in a different world in what they demand from the driver, never mind the engineers and fabricators skills.
Don't give up on your project, but face facts, be realistic, and scale back both your expectations and the rhetoric - you might be surprised by the help you will receive if you don't come on like we are all idiots and you have the answer to everyones dreams.
I kind of look forward to seeing one of these cars on track. Please make it legal and bring it to Road America for a national next year. You will get to race against some of the guys posting on this thread. I'm currently off their pace by about 8 seconds a lap, hopefully this will change soon. But even if it doesn't I would be very confident that I would be 8 seconds a lap faster than one of your cars. Making the statments that these guys are going to be behind you is only true when they are coming up to lap you. I think you really need to race against these guys and their cars before you make such strong statements. I do like the idea of your concept though. If you can make them safe for those that are driving and the others on the track I say bring 'em on. As someone that has built, homoligated and raced a couple of sportsracers your efforts are appreciated.
I think you may be getting the wrong impression. I don't think there is one person here at Apex that wouldn't like to see you and your car at the track racing and having fun. I know that nobody here wants to push you (or anyone) away from our sport. Maybe the approach was wrong, but everyone here wants to get you the best information possible so that your efforts and results are maximized.
Building a car from scratch is difficult to say the least. I give you full credit for your accomplishment. However, if you wish to homologate and race your creation at SCCA events and in turn sell a few cars to others, I'd suggest that the information that everyone is offering will only help to make your quest easier. In reading through the points Richard Pare offers, I only read ways to help to improve your car.
If presented wrong, sorry. We're just attempting to offer help.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
MiniFormula
I can't wait to see the bodywork. It has more protection above the waist than a Std FMCould you build more if you wanted to? just 2 a year ?? c'mon man. What are you going to do with the petrol tank, dude? The tank, holy cow!! that's messed up, why didn't the engineering student help?
Do you think the solid axle is going to work, is it panhard or torque arm or watts linkage, few choices there eh... I love engineering too. Listen to your new friends in this site, if you have to add 5-9k more to the price, it still be your dream come true... move the tank and add another radiator....
can you come up with a crush box and a 6 galllon tank where the sedan seat is.
ps. my first race in an FM was with MidCouncil here at GingerMan, one of the entries was a purple framed MiniF, it look like something out of mad max. i hope the bodywork works and looks sharp.
kind regards juan marchand
ooops, disregard the comment about the solid axle.... i just saw the pictures, nice. I would drive one yesterday. later
As the self-annointed 'King o' Cheap'; i did go racing in 1975 with an outlay of $376 dollars in a frame of mild steel that was stick welded on my garage floor. Sort of kinda hauled ass. Hooked me for life. The mini-Indy looks like a jewel compared to the ol' Cockroach I.I built a lot of sandrails and off-road racers that were not as fancy as the Mini-Indy, and they didn't fall apart under me.
That said, if Brian Tomasi had been driving a Mini-Indy on Sept 25, 2005, I'd already be dead for almost 5 years now.
Build an aluminum crush box the same size as that 'ram', throw a wedge fuel cell behind the seat, add a big ol' oil cooler, and bring it on. I'd probably trim the bottom of the dash a tad too.
Right now, as it is, it's almost ready to run solo, and some scary-ass hillclimbs in the Eastern US.
Then, after you pound around a track like Road Atlanta for 30 minutes, you'll probably say, "Those fellas on Apexspeed might know a thing or two about which they write."
Last edited by Purple Frog; 05.13.11 at 12:52 PM.
After reading these posts and some of the comments and since i have 3 years experience with these type of cars, i am going to chime in. I raced in NAMRA, pretty much defunct now. I raced 1995-1998 when we ran 600 cc triple snowmobile engines. We ran oval tracks, 1/4 mile to 5/8 in michigan, ohio and indiana and we got paid for racing, tow money and purse. Some of us broke even every night and some didn't. We had 25-30 cars a night, when i left we could barely get 12.
These cars served there purpose since the seventies or early eighties when they were developed. Mace Thomas developed this type of car, he wanted to create a cheap form of racing that sort of looked like a indy car. Mace thomas was a super modified car owner of the sixties , Gordon Johncock drove for him many times. He also was a winged sprint car owner for a long time.
With the snowmobile engines, about 135 HP, some more HP if the guys spent tons of money on them would turn lap time equivelent to a late model and i am not talking crate engine late model. The structure on the front of this car works very well in a crash with a concrete wall, i know from first hand experience. I have crashed a few times over the years and the car held up well and repairing was very cheap. I always took mine back to Mace Thomas because he had the jigs and was not looking to make money. He just enjoyed racing and helping racers that wanted to race but couldn't afford the bigger cars and cost associated with them.
They were pretty safe cars at the time, only one fatality in the 30 plus years of existance, not many series can say that even though even one is to much. I didn't know the driver who was killed, but i knew his sons well because they crewed for a friend of mine who ran asphalt winged sprint cars, which unfortunately he died in his sprint car a few years ago. The drivers who died, basically died from the same injuries that dale earnhardt died of. We didn't have hans devices back then and most likely if we had, they may have survived.
My last thought is using motorcycle engines in these cars, there was much debate on allowing 600 motorcycle engines in these cars for a few years. I know after i left, they started using them. 1000 engines, 180 HP + is way to much for these cars in my opinion. not only is there a saftey factor, but also that much horsepower would be hell on the chassis and suspension in a race enviornment.
One last thing many of our cars did not have suspension, no one could make suspension work that was faster than what we had. They were a blast to drive and race, cheap to repair and some of us came away from a race weekend even or ahead a little with the purse money, of course that was when we had 25-30 cars every race weekend. It was nice to recieve a check in the mail the following week.
Every series has its pros and cons. I have been following F1000 from its inception, someday i will hop back into a race car and F1000 would be my choice, unfortunately, after i left the series, i hopped into motocross for a couple of years and busted up my legs and ankles pretty good, so wife has a problem with me racing again, lol, me being in traction and multiple surgeries has given her a distaste for me racing.
Blew...
Good write up. I think what you were saying is that on a 3/8 or 1/2 mile oval they were safe at the speeds they could achieve. But maybe not at a buck thirty against one of Road America's walls.
OBTW, nice picture, you look good with a checkered flag in your hand.Nice color scheme, even if I'd like a touch more purple.
Blew...
Good write up. I think what you were saying is that on a 3/8 or 1/2 mile oval they were safe at the speeds they could achieve. But maybe not at a buck thirty against one of Road America's walls.
OBTW, nice picture, you look good with a checkered flag in your hand.
At that track, which is fort wayne indiana, is a half mile that i won on. I was watching some of the other guys practice and a state trooper was in front of me and put a radar gun on one of the guys who was always fast, his speed was 122 MPH at the end of the straight. These cars were fast and i know i hit the wall one time at over 100MPH and i was not injured and the car was easily repaired. The front end absorbed the impact like it was suppose to. 150 mph in these cars crashing may be to much in my opinion. The original purpose for these cars, like i said fit very well for there intended purpose. We as a group have raced road courses for fun, like gingerman and grattan in the years i was with the organization. Never had issues saftey wise, but we ran with our own and they were fairly evenly matched.
This type of new car that is being built does not fit in with F1000 in my opinion, the chassis is really not much different than what i had and 130MPH is max as far as i am concerned. Just look at the technology Sthor and RFR1000 has, it is hard to compete with that.
It would make a great chassis for another oval series, but untill the economy picks up again, it won't fly there either for now.
fb has developed into more than what i think it was ment to be. chassis builders like Sthor, pheonix and Ralph firman have stepped up and i think, produced a car beyond what people expected. It is an execptional class of cars that has developed quickly. They are truly a work of art and technology. Someday, i will buy a RFR1000.
Last post, i would like to comment on a couple of posts about FB not being an entry level class, while it may be true to some extent, every driver, new or one who has been racing for awhile either has talent or doesn't. The people who developed this class has developed a class that is attractive to drivers of all experiences. Engines are fairly cheap, they look and perform very well and i am sure are a blast to drive.
The one thing i like about SCCA is the schools you can go to and the practice time you can get, in oval racing we had maybe two hot lap sessions a night, 10 minutes at the most, we learn to handle a car in race conditions and granted, for the first few races, you had to start in the back no matter where you qualified. It is pretty hectic to start out racing in this format but everyone did it and very few problems came up. The drivers knew if they were being past by the leaders and moved to the low side of the track, it is the learning process untill you get up to speed with the rest.
I personally have no problem with people starting out in in a series such as FB or even GT 1 if they want to. It is there money and as long as they respect the faster guys, practice and go to racing schools etc., there shouldn't be any problem. That being said, it is also the responsibility of the faster guys to know who they are racing against and their capabilities. To me, especially in a organization that doesn't pay anything, you should be able to race what ever class you want if you can afford it, you just need to be responsible about it and realize that you are not going to go out and win, you need to learn and not make mistakes that takes other people out and above all go home happy and satisfied that you finished. Speed and podiums will come eventually, maybe.
Ahh, "The Rub"
as in, there-in lies the rub...
In a perfect world, what you suggest would be possible.
That soemone with the funds to do so could enter into a racing class, and run safely mind you, ignoring the ladder that ALL successful racer's climb.
All because they could afford to enter at a level they really should not.
EVERYTIME I see this, it's come to tears.
Countless times I have seen drivers in very expensive cars going quite slow and seemingly not being able to use the mirrors bolted onto the side of the car either.
I think what these people fail to understand, and I'm talking about folks with unlimited/cubic $'s is that just because they have had success in business, or belong to The Lucky Sperm Club does not in and of itself present an opportunity for success in racing. Oh sure the unltd $'s come in handy
Perhaps all their life they have received anything and everything they desired, no questions asked, no requests required, I don't / wouldn't know.
Would it be proper to put a 16 yr old in a Ferrari for a first street car? HELL NO!
Why in the world could we expect someone to be able to control, or even drive correctly/predictably a car like a F Thou?
Why would someone not recognize the order of things:
Birth, crawl, walk, run, tricycle, bicycle, minibike, you get the idea.
To be truly good you must first master and respect the order of things.
Every now and then a true talent comes around who can come straight out of karts and into an FB. Phil De La O comes to mind, showing quite well, quite quickly in a Phoenix, but even he had a bunch of karting success and experience.
To say that anyone who can pony up the bucks should be able to just jump into a class like this is a recipe for disaster.
"Why would someone not recognize the order of things:
Birth, crawl, walk, run, tricycle, bicycle, minibike, you get the idea.
To be truly good you must first master and respect the order of things"
Your points are all well made and I agree that the availability of money can cause people to feel entitled and to make some unwise choices.
However many people became wealthy by being very successful at refusing to accept the preordained order of things. For most entrepreneurs there are no rules just opportunities to find creative ways to achieve their goals more efficiently. These same people will take advantage of every opportunity (experts, racing schools, private coaching, travel and tons of track time, etc) to bridge the gap between them and the up through the ranks experienced racer. Also, for the most part most did not achieve their success by ignoring the obvious and generally will not continue to pump money into something for which they have no aptitude.
My son drives a $5000 1985 Reynard, not because we aren't in a position to purchase something better but because he has not exhausted the capabilities of that car and we will not move on until he does.
While that has been our approach I do believe that availability of money can allow some drivers to successfully follow a non traditional path to FB.
Mini Formula Indy
kudos to Mr. MFI for building his car and joining us on this forum
yah gotta give this guy credit on his attempt
obviously the vehicle is not in compliance with the rules
i would not even sit in that car but do encourage him to continue to develop his product
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/album.php?albumid=171
Here is a link the the album with the FMI cars. Took them with a Blackberry, rather quickly so they are not the best. I just kept clicking the button.
This was at the MC school over the weekend. There was a third one that came but I didn't get any pictures of it. It was a 600cc bike engine car, with it mounted directly to the right of the driver. Like a reverse kart, but even farther forward.
-RH
The lower front A-Arm outboard rodends are an accident waiting to happen.
rod ends
Just the bottom ones?????
john f
If they are big enough
If the rod ends are big enough then they will be just fine. They look pretty large in the pictures. It is a common practice in dirt circle track to use rod ends in just the same way. Mod-Lites often use a 3/4" shank 5/8" bore rod end on the outboard lower.
Last edited by Wright D; 07.19.10 at 2:09 PM. Reason: cause i typs real good.
What is MC school?
Its where you study for your McJob and save up for your McMansion!
Bob McCown
Van Diemen RF81 #472 (2008-2013)
Next ?
2009 ARS CF
"I barked twice." - Enzo (the dog)
Midwestern Council. A local club around the great lakes area. Great people there. Mostly a relaxed, family oriented, low cost place to race with some good competition in many classes. Classes similar to SCCA with some additional to fit more types of cars.
Reid:
Are the photos that you presented to us via your Blackberry, the 2010 model of the MiniFormula Indy F1000?
Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Former Phoenix F1K-07 F1000 #77 owner/driver
website: http://www.formularacingltd.com
email: sonewmexico@gmail.com
The big issue in outboard is the bending loads under braking. Even on the FFs we have to use 1/2" shank alloy rodends on the upper a-arms or they will bend under braking. Of course, we use sphericals in welded-in buckets on the lower a-arm because it is doubtful that a 1/2" joint can withstand the combined vertical and braking loads.
From the looks of the brake system, I doubt that that car will generate braking loads as high as an FF, so assuming that the rod ends shown are indeed 1/2 alloy, he shouldn't have a problem.
In three years of racing these type of cars, never ever had any issues with rod ends. Yes, i have broke or bent them, but only in a crash or hard contact. These types of cars have been around for over thirty years and everything you see on these cars have been tested on the track and work very well.
My car, which was built in 1985 did not run a chain drive, i ran a tooth gates kevlar belt (can't remember the name) with a machined rear drive gear. Many said it wouldn't hold up, but i replaced 1 belt in three years. No chain mess, no maintenance. It was rated for 150 HP i believe.
Gates "Polychain"?
Regards,
Dan
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
Thats the one, i believe.
How wide of a belt did you use?
Hey Rich-
I have seen these around the track for a while, so I would guess they are older designs. They just looked similar and are called Formula Indy by the owners. Could be different makes for all I know.
Best guess is the newest they could be is 2008?? Likely older by the looks of them.
-RH
Thanks Reid:
I am sure that we all want to see the pics of the new models that I first heard about. This thread has been quite active with lots of input. I never thought it would emerge this way when I started the thread a while back.
No doubt Mini Formula Indy has arroused a lot of interest and concern. Lets see what happens. Even at $20,000 if they can pull off a quality car, then it's a bargain and they will attract new entries into the class that just want to go out and have some fun. Sounds like that's their goal.
Just hope the builder is open minded to the master minds here on ApexSpeed that really know what building racecars is about. This is such a valuable web site, and there is no other website that matches ApexSpeed for a source and wealth of information.
Hope fully MFI will post some photos of the 2010 model soon.
Richard Dziak
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Former Phoenix F1K-07 F1000 #77 owner/driver
website: http://www.formularacingltd.com
email: sonewmexico@gmail.com
See posts #48 and 58 for current car pics.
Before you toss that cell in the trash....
Many roto-molded fuel cells are FIA FT3 certified. ATL's Saver cells and Sports cells are both hard rubber/plastic molded cells that are FIA FT3. See pages 11 and 13 of the 2010 ATL catalog.
personally, I wouldn't utilize one. In fact, I had bought one second hand described as an "ATL FIA FT-3 8 gallon cell p/n ....." for a production car. Got my hands on it, just as described, I ignorantly assumed that any FIA FT3 rated cell would have a flexible/pliable bladder. Wrong.
Daryl,
Don't be a dummy like me
9.3.27. pg 73 [FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold]FUEL CELL SPECIFICATIONS[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications...................[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold]and[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]9.3.27.4. pg 75 Rotary Molded Cell[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]The use of rotary molded fuel cells not having a bladder, or not contained [/FONT]
[FONT=Univers]in a metal can, is allowable in those cars that do not require the use of [/FONT][FONT=Univers]a fuel cell, but where they are an allowed option.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
I believe it was an inch and a half wide.
The F440 & F500 cars of the 80's used a 50mm (2") wide gates cogged drive belt. We found that the looser you adjusted them the faster you went & they held up ok until you spun off & then gased it coming back onto the pavement. That would strip the cogs right out of the belt.
Scott Woodruff
83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S
(former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC
Bill,Daryl,
Don't be a dummy like me
9.3.27. pg 73 [FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold]FUEL CELL SPECIFICATIONS[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]All cars must be equipped with a safety fuel cell complying with these specifications...................[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]All safety fuel cells shall consist of a foam-filled fuel bladder enclosed in a metal container at minimum.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers-Bold][FONT=Univers-Bold]and[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]9.3.27.4. pg 75 Rotary Molded Cell[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers][FONT=Univers]The use of rotary molded fuel cells not having a bladder, or not contained [/FONT]
[FONT=Univers]in a metal can, is allowable in those cars that do not require the use of [/FONT][FONT=Univers]a fuel cell, but where they are an allowed option.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Unless there has been a clarification in fast track or a technical bulletin issued a rotary molded FIA FT3 cell, contained in a metal can is allowable in any SCCA class. Only when it doesn't contain a bladder OR is not contained in a metal can, is their use prohibited in classes requiring a cell.
The F440 & F500 cars of the 80's used a 50mm (2") wide gates cogged drive belt. We found that the looser you adjusted them the faster you went & they held up ok until you spun off & then gased it coming back onto the pavement. That would strip the cogs right out of the belt.
It could have been 2 inch, been awhile, 1 1/2 sticks in my mind. The correct tension on using this system was pretty critical. My only belt failure was because of it being to loose. Comming out of a turn and flooring it stripped the teeth.
drive
is this the same type gates belt that they stopped supplying for homebuilt aerocraft awhile back?
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