New F1000 Builder

[Wright D]

Dustin,

Its good to know you are using the latest software, but how are you validating your models? Things like element size and mesh quality, not to mention correctly characterizing material properties in areas with significant heat-affected zones are critical once you get into the non-linear domain. In the industry it is standard practice to view results from a non-validated crash model with a heavily critical eye. I know this all too well because I work for a company that not only makes industry leading FE software, but also uses it extensively in consulting work.

The yield strength and rupture strength used in my FEA tests are taken from real world 4130 welded tube data that I and collected and correlated with me FEA results as part of my cap stone project. This was done by first destructive test small welded assemblies, then correlating that data to the same small assembly in FEA (ANSYS). Several different types, styles, tube sizes, and tube shapes were test and correlated...I then used the findings from these small assemblies to analyze a whole chassis. Because in FSAE, we did not have the time or the funds to build a whole chassis just to smash it. I still have all of my data, and used it when I analyzed the phoenix chassis as well as many other welded assemblies

I think we should get this thread back onto MiniFormulaIndy's new F1000 offering.

[ghickman]

I'll be the first one here to say that I doubt you can build an F1000 and sell it (as a roller) for $16k.

Myself, Brandon Dixon, and Jerry Freeman have had the unique experience of not only designing, machining, and building our own cars.....I'll speak for myself on this but I think my 2 other esteemed driver friends will agree...these cars are continually trying to shake themselves to pieces. The g forces on these cars is very high.

Crap just the 4130 tubing alone to build my chassis cost $2,000 and the A-Arm tubing close to the same....and I buy at a level that I doubt many on this forum can purchase at. I do this for a living. I make everything, ask Dustin.

I'm ready to be proven wrong but I know there are a whole bunch of us on this forum that feel the same way.

Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering Inc.
FB #76

[Wright D]

If the car has beam style axels and is chain drive like a mini sprint, has water jet cut aluminum body, straight from junk yard motor, and Bilstein shocks (like dirt guys use) then it might be possible....MiniFormulaIndy, do you have a speck sheet for your car yet? If so, would you mind sharing it?

[MiniFormulaIndy]

My cars are not 100% 4130 Chromoly. Many on and off road machines are built of other materials. Think in terms of a dune buggy. If you've ever been to Glamis or even Silver Lake sand dunes in Michigan, you've seen those things rock themselves and everyone walks away. Buggies in the woods jump uphills and downhills and crash with regularity. Rocks crush nerf bars. Could you make the entire thing out of 4130 and have it analyzed by an engineer to make it better? Certainly. Wouldn't you want a capable machine that can do exactly the same thing as the guy that spent 60-80k and give him a nod & a wink as you pass him? Knowing that you got yours for a price that is so good, you wouldn't be that upset if you bent it up a little.

They don't have beam axles. Pushrod suspension. Inboard shocks, all 4. 4 wheel independent. "A" arms on all 4 corners. It does not have a junkyard motor. (or any junkyard parts for that matter) I use 5,000mile or less liter bike engines from street bikes, in stock form. The body is all hand laid fiberglass with aluminim wings. shocks are Showa, 21 way adjustable compression & dampening.

Do I sense a bit of disbelief and or dissention from the big boys?? Don't worry, I'm not trying to move in on your territory, I just know there is a better way to build a mousetrap. Our cars are not for the same guys that buy your cars. Ours are for the guy that thinks he can drive and wants to find out if he can.

[Wren]

Do I sense a bit of disbelief and or dissention from the big boys?? Don't worry, I'm not trying to move in on your territory, I just know there is a better way to build a mousetrap. Our cars are not for the same guys that buy your cars. Ours are for the guy that thinks he can drive and wants to find out if he can.

No, it's just that we don't really want to share the track with this:

That is not safe. I would not want to be t-boned by that.

FB is not a beginners class. FB cars are still raw and running a few seconds off of the fastest Atlantics. Gary is correct that they are absolutely pushing the limits of what a tube frame should do.

edit- they pulled the picture off of their site.

[blackbmwk1200r]

It seems to me (background electronics not structural design so please excuse what may be a naive viewpoint) that a lot of the structural design that goes into building a racecar is to achieve an appropriate level of driver protection while at the same time reducing weight. I suggest, perhaps naively, that one could probably build a racecar with so much structural material that we could all agree on its structural competency from a driver safety standpoint without a lot of modeling and real world testing.

This leads to my question about your approach. Since this is an entry level car are you in fact taking a weight penalty to overbuild it structurally thereby avoiding the stringent impirical design measures identified by others and if so what do you estimate that weight penalty to be?

[Bill Bonow]

Wren's photo seems to have suddenly vanished, but the side mounted plastic fuel tank and the steel tube battering ram up front will most like get this from SCCA if homologation is attempted.

[Ananth K]

No, it's just that we don't really want to share the track with this:

That is not safe. I would not want to be t-boned by that.

FB is not a beginners class. FB cars are still raw and running a few seconds off of the fastest Atlantics. Gary is correct that they are absolutely pushing the limits of what a tube frame should do.

C'mon Wren, it is unfair to say all of that and not post pictures. My opinion is, doesnt look that bad for 16k.

[ghickman]

Hum....side pod mounted fuel cells went out a long time ago and for good reason. Last car I owned with that was my March 76B...backed it up T6 at Riverside in 1980 got T-Boned had fuel spraying all over....not good.

Come on MiniFormulaIndy show us some pics. of the real offering.

GH

[Wright D]

The spool and single brake in the back save some money and weight for sure.

I think it looks like a really nice Solo 2 car.

[Rick Ross]

FB is not a beginners class. FB cars are still raw and running a few seconds off of the fastest Atlantics. Gary is correct that they are absolutely pushing the limits of what a tube frame should do.

Thank you, Wren and Gary. It amazes me that some people seem to think that FB is an appropriate entry-level class. An FB car is the last place that someone should give this racing thing a try to see if "they have what it takes". A beginner has no business in an FB (or FA, DSR, etc.).

[dc]

FB is not a beginners class.

That sums up the major problem, right there. There is no way that any racing novice should be in an FB on any track at any time. Pushing 2:07s at Road America is not a car for beginners. Period.

[RobLav]

If that car showed up to race in my run group, I'd be packing up and heading home.

The front rollhoop bracing looks non-compliant. The main rollhoop might be compliant, but I would not bet my life on it. The front A-Arms are not compliant. The fuel cell is not compliant... etc etc..

[mousecatcher]

I don't see a front sway bar. With a rear live axle and spool maybe it doesn't matter. Wheelbase looks kind of short but maybe that's a photo perspective problem. That battering ram will definitely have to go.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

Ahh yes, those pictures are a bit old, I'll post the new ones and you guys can "do what you do". What constitutes a beginner? So you mean that if I spent 65k then I'm allowed in your little group? Don't be so elitist and don't feel bad because you spent too much. I did not say that my cars were better than yours, I just claim that my cars are every bit as fast and for a whole hell of alot less money. Here's the thing guys, the race participant decides how fast and how to handle the track & the traffic. I've raced & wrecked for many years. Shouldn't you be welcoming new entrants, not trying to push them away??

The fuel tank will actually homologate provided we encase it in an aluminum container, easily achieved. I have a copy of the SCCA rule book, don't worry, the car will pass. The nose of the car, or battering ram as it was humorously called is designed to shear off, if you look at it. Are liter bikes safe? They run on the same tracks you do, with no cage. Let me get some pics posted of the completed car. Give me a half hour.

[RobLav]

There are people that are either dead or crippled for life because their crushbox sheared off.

[mousecatcher]

Here's the thing guys, the race participant decides how fast and how to handle the track & the traffic.

I have to disagree there. Drivers (like, e.g. Duno) who are well off the pace are dangerous and should be in a slower class.

The nose of the car, or battering ram as it was humorously called is designed to shear off, if you look at it.

That won't pass tech. The nose is supposed to crush, not shear off. What you have is a missile, dangerous to the driver and even more dangerous to other drivers.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

It will Pass Homologation and I'll get the paper when it does. Don't be so afraid. I detect a poor attitude on many of you, perhaps that's why your class struggles. Guess what? There is a new car in town, flame away. I will show up and I will race some of you. Have your balls on, you'll need 'em. I am not afraid.

[dc]

What constitutes a beginner? So you mean that if I spent 65k then I'm allowed in your little group? Don't be so elitist and don't feel bad because you spent too much.

I don't own an FB, nor will I ever. They are too fast and too technologically advanced for me. I started racing in a Continental, and really, that was over the head of most beginners, and 10 seconds a lap slower at Road America than an FB.

I'll stand by what I said before—the FB class is NOT a beginner training ground. The cars are too damn fast, and not a place to "get 'yer feet wet." Do that in a FV, F5, FST or even a FF where the closing rates aren't nearly that of what is potentially the fastest class on track at any given SCCA event.

You don't hand a new motorcycle rider a Suzuki Hayabusa SX1300R and say, "there ya go, have at it!" And you don't put a beginner Club Racer into a FB and let them loose. It's NOT a beginner class by any stretch of the imagination—regardless of the price of the car.


This is not an elitist response from this group. This is a pragmatic, educated, experienced and concerned response from the people who essentially built the class from the ground up here on ApexSpeed.

[Bill Bonow]

Cover it up with all the sheet aluminum you wish, SCCA club racing will not homologate that car with that rotary molded fuel tank. The GCR states formula cars must use a fuel cell that is registered to FIA FT-3 (or better) specification. I have homologated a fair amount of formula cars and everytime, they insist on seeing a photograph of the fuel cell showing FIA tags. A fuel cell with that rating will cost about $1k (without the aluminum cover).

Here is a link to the GCR if you want to review 9.3.27 starting on page 73, it defines all the requirements

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Club%2...CR-January.pdf

[MiniFormulaIndy]

I'm not trying to argue anything except that I have a right to build, sell and race anything I see fit and can legally enter an event. I'm actually an easy going person and There are people emailing me with praise and warnings about the "big boys" on this site.

Let's just see how it all unfolds. Relax guys. It's only racing.

[blackbmwk1200r]

I'm not sure the builder intends entry level to mean entry level into racing for a beginning racer but rather a lower cost class compliant racecar entry into the FB class for an appropriate driver. I'm sure we can all agree that there are some very capable drivers out there racing in cars that cost less than $16K and that cost of your race car does not neccesarily define an individuals capability as a driver.

[Ananth K]

That rear suspension will break something the first time that the brakes are applied at speed. Unless there is a toe link that is not seen in the pictures.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

It is not going to break. It's already been run at speed and it works incredibly well. You must be an engineer....

[Rick Ross]

What constitutes a beginner? So you mean that if I spent 65k then I'm allowed in your little group? Don't be so elitist and don't feel bad because you spent too much.

I do not own an FB, and I could care less what your car costs. As someone who may have to share the track with you, I just care that your car is safe, in compliance with the GCR, and that the driver has at least a modest level of experience and skills. If you can build a safe car for $16K, good for you.

BTW, it is not necessary to spend $65K to go fast. I have a $30K FA that is faster than most any FB.......with the possible exceptions of Brandon and Nikki.

[Wright D]

Toe stiffness is usually considered to be pretty important. Especially in the rear, as a small toe change (even a 1/32") can dramatically change the feel of a car; so, most of us are used to seeing nice and wide upper control arms (a-arm and toe link).

[Bill Bonow]

Just something I noticed from the photos, it looks like the car has a 5-point harness? (If so, easy to change/upgrade) And didn't see an on-board fire system mounted anywhere?

Will your road course testing be at Nelson Ledges?

[MiniFormulaIndy]

Yep, the fire system isn't on it in the pics, not an issue. Don't like my tank? Not an issue, I'll buy what you want me to use. Like it or not, watch your mirrors. I'll kiss tech's rear end and I'll comply. Not an issue. The bottom line is, if you don't like my car or my battering ram, get behind me. The other one that was just sold, is out there too. people are emailing me through the site and encouraging my efforts and they're also warning me of the Apex Speed politics and them being "in bed" with SCCA. I also hear there are other formula groups that are getting better turnouts. Seems to me you guys might just be the beast that devoured itself. Regardless, I build cars and I'm doing it until something else comes along that could take it's place. Pretty much done everything else already.

[reidhazelton]

There is a group, albeit small, of these that race up here in Midwestern Council. They are indeed different, to say the least. From what I have seen they are safe. I have not seen one have a suspension failure, but I could very well be wrong. I have seen a few crash, lightly, and they seemed to hold up well. I have seen one that had the engine mounted on the right of the driver, obviously straight from the circle track.

For performance, they don't touch a good FF. They are fast in a straight line but don't corner or brake well, but that could be the drivers, who knows. The ones I've seen are more like a F500 with a bike engine in them and wings. I looked at one, it didn't have "real" shocks.

Again, I haven't looked closely at them and could be completely wrong. There is an MC school this weekend I will be at, I'll look closer if any show up.

-RH

[Ananth K]

It is not going to break. It's already been run at speed and it works incredibly well. You must be an engineer....

Why yes I am, you talk as if engineers are stupid and live in lala land. But yes, something IS going to break/bend in your rear suspension or cause serious handling issues unless, you

1) Have a toe link
2) Have brakes that dont really act on the rear axle.

I guess if you bring those balls along the handling issues might not be of any consequence.

Thanks and have a nice day.

[jerry freeman]

This is coming from the poorest and slowest FB racer in the country so save the elitist crap. I have no problem with someone building their own car but there's alot of changes you need to make before that car will be homologated. The fuel cell will not pass even in an aluminum container. The nose or crush structure has to be made of aluminum or carbon. Yours is just dangerous. I don't think you have the correct front braces on the front roll hoop from the pictures.

Thats just the obvious things that stick out. You have two tubes beside the driver that are welded together on an angle without an inside tube plug welded for reinforcement. That's scary. Also, it's mig welded and I wouldn't ride in a mig welded car for nothing in the world. Especially those terrible welds. Whoever welded that car needs to find a different occupation.

Your correct that there are people out their that don't think you should be racing these cars if you aren't a world champion driver in any class and yes it keeps alot of people from racing. I know that first hand. But I couldn't care less about those people. We all have to start somehow. After 3 years of changing something on my car every race I'm still 10 seconds off the leaders but I keep improving. If I knew what I know now I would have raced my ITB car longer before getting in the FB car.

I know exactly how much or how little you can spend building a FB car. You can build one for around what you are talking about but I don't think it can be done with all new parts or be competative and make any money. I don't want to keep anyone from building, owning, or racing their cars. But you need to be a little more open minded about what these manufacturers are telling you. Without the help of people like Dustin Wright and the rest of the people on this forum I wouldn't be anywhere near the point I'm at now. They know what they're talking about.

Jerry

[Wren]

Ahh yes, those pictures are a bit old, I'll post the new ones and you guys can "do what you do". What constitutes a beginner? So you mean that if I spent 65k then I'm allowed in your little group?

I think you are missing the point. It has nothing to do with cost or elitism. Sean Maisey's car was just sold for less than you are asking for a new car and his car is capable of winning the runoffs. While I don't know about the other cars, I know that you can have a new citation for a lot less than $65k.

[S Lathrop]

MiniFormulaIndy;

Your car looks nice. Good workmanship. And I am impressed that you can offer it at under $20,000. Even $30,000 wound impress me for that package.

I don't know what size tires you are using but FB is limited to 8 x 13 Front and 10 x 13 rear. For road racing at a place like Road America you will need to have a top speed of 150+.

As you know, four things drive race car designs; the motors, the tires, the tracks we are tested on and the rules book. The current FB is a product of all these restraints. I will bet that your car is a good interpertation of those four restraints at your tracks.

[mousecatcher]

I think you need a front and rear ARB and anti-intrusion bars.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

It simply seems to me that the people on this forum want to push excited, gutsy & talented people away from "their" sport. When we raced Mini Champs, there were a few guys that completely dissolved the sanctioning body with the constant rule changing, politics and from what I've heard about this place "over teching" and trying to exclude instead of trying to include. The mini champ class has all but dissapeared. Try and encourage, not discourage guys. Seriously. I've raced a car that was entirely mig welded and so have a bunch of short track racers all over the world. The guy that welded the car is a great guy and he gets better every car he does. The first one was a mess, but it was sold to a driver in IL and still runs to this day. I've cut apart some of the welds he's done and they have good penetration and that's what really counts.

I expected to get torn apart on this site, but that did not stop me from posting. Just because statements like it's "not good enough" for you, or "scary" or "that's going to fail" pop up and get made public, doesn't mean that we feel that way. I completely trust this car and others do as well. It is a bit primitive, I'll give you that, but it has run impressively well as of this point. The body is almost done and I'll post video of it running and you can all begin the "here's what you've done wrong" posts. If I can mash the gas, survive and perhaps pass some of you "big boys", then maybe views will change.

Instead of trying to push the new guy out remember this: "Tearing up someone else's couch, doesn't make yours look any better.


Thank you those that have emailed me and PM'd me and those that are in support of our efforts. We will continue.

[dc]

...and they're also warning me of the Apex Speed politics and them being "in bed" with SCCA.

That's the funniest thing you've said so far.

[Brands]

I just claim that my cars are every bit as fast and for a whole hell of alot less money.

I'm not sure you do yourself any favours when you say things like this. Do you think you car will be as fast as an RFR/Phoenix/Stohr etc etc? As I'm sure you are aware there are a lot of very experienced race car drivers and designers on this excellent forum, so I don't understand why you don't take what they have to say seriously. Sure, some of the comments are a little harsh, but you can ignore those and focus on the advice being offered. The car will not get through homologation as it is, so why don't you sit down and work out with us the best way to get it through?

[Wren]

That's the funniest thing you've said so far.

I don't want to start rumors, but I'm pretty sure I saw Gomberg pass you a briefcase full of hundreds at the sprints.

[dc]

I don't want to start rumors, but I'm pretty sure I saw Gomberg pass you a briefcase full of hundreds at the sprints.

Good grief, would I like that to be true. SCCA doesn't even advertise here. LOL.

[starkejt]

I don't want to start rumors, but I'm pretty sure I saw Gomberg pass you a briefcase full of hundreds at the sprints.

The conspiracy runs deeper than you think. Where do you think the hundreds came from? Hint: look at the Apexspeed banner photo.