New F1000 Builder

[Richard Dziak]

I was recently sent a link to this builders website.......

New F1000 MiniFormulaIndy race car......

Check it out........Not SCCA specs, but goes to show there are builders who like the F1000 style. and are attracted to the class.

http://miniformulaindy.com/indysite/main.htm

[R. Pare]

This is a joke, right?

[aspenripper]

I hope so, that's one ugly race car. Sort of reminds me of a souped up yerf-dog go kart.

My inside sources tell me the first ten buyers also get a free trailer just like the one in the background.

Sorry I couldn't resist as I am snowed in here in New York, 5 degrees outside.

[jerry oleson]

The suspension picture at the bottom looks like the sports racer vesrsion of the FE.

[Richard Dziak]

No joke.........builder tells me....

"They sell for $15,000"

2010 model will be ready in May, 2010. Look for more photos to follow on his website.

No information on the free trailer.

[iamuwere]

The suspension picture at the bottom looks like the sports racer vesrsion of the FE.

Sure does...not the suspension of the car pictured above.

The MiniIndy series actually has many cars involved and many builders. They show up for sale now and then. Most are built with 500cc snow mobile power.

JL

[Kazis31]

I hope retail on it is not going to exceed 5 k..lol

[zexel]

The builder brought his 2008 car to a local autocross at 3pm and told us how stupid we were for not getting paid to race..............he gets paid to race ovals. Very nice guy.

[reidhazelton]

Yeah, those are legit. We have a few that race up here. The ones that have the engine mounted on the left side of the driver, instead or behind, are great for road courses.

Sorta similar to F500.

-RH

[rickb99]

650 pounds 180 HP and a top speed of 175 MPH.. No, No, No I don't think so. Sounds like an 'end-of-life' experience.

Although, some of our Kart guys are hitting over 150 MPH at Pacific Raceway. So maybe it isn't that far beyond sanity.

[DMac]

Right turns only ^^^
Look at the offset in the front suspension arms.

[andyllc]

It looks a lot like a midget or wingless sprint car frame with a Danica look a like body on it to me.

[R. Pare]

If those are pull rods attached to the upper a-arm, I'm wondering just how long he expects the a-arms to last!

[DMac]

If those are pull rods attached to the upper a-arm, I'm wondering just how long he expects the a-arms to last!

They are mounted in single-shear as well.

[RussMcB]

Maybe the 2010 car will be very different.

[dd46637]

-

[R. Pare]

If that were indeed the case, then what is holding the chassis up off of the ground?

If the a-arms are actually rockers, my question still stands.

[DMac]

The one in the picture is an unsuspended oval track car, according to the website.

[R. Pare]

Then the rods are anchored to the chassis at the inboard end (not active wing adjusters as alluded to in the edited post above).

That makes it even worse for those a-arms!

[DMac]

I just hope nobody gets hurt at that top speed of 165.

[mblanc]

these guys occasionally bring some out to road race also
but maybe they're 600cc's?

they're beautiful:


http://www.myfinishlinephotos.com/ga..._5205.JPG.html

http://www.myfinishlinephotos.com/ga..._5204.JPG.html

http://www.myfinishlinephotos.com/ga..._5209.JPG.html

http://www.myfinishlinephotos.com/ga..._5210.JPG.html

[MiniFormulaIndy]

The 600cc snowmobile cars in thoes pictures on the post with links are similar to F500's, but based off of a cross breed between a mini sprint and a go cart. What we build are very, very different. The 08 & 09 cars were the third and fourth builds. Ugly as they were, they were very fast and the trailer comments were laughable. The flatbed trailers are to haul a car, not to show others how much money we have. At any rate, I'd been sitting on this post until the 2010 car was completed and tested, which it is. It will compete with the Van Diemen and Stohr cars, whether you believe it or not. If you look at the website, you can see small thumbnails of the car with the body off. I'm not making those images larger until the body is on and we can show it off proper. It has a look nothing like the 09 offset chassis, unsuspeded car.
Here's where you can grill me on construction techniques, costs, goals, speed, safety or whatever you choose. The new car is something we're very serious about and very proud of.

Ask/Flame away.

www.MiniFormulaIndy.com

[RussMcB]

No flame from me. It's a great goal to have a competitive new FB car that will sell for 1/3 the cost of Stohrs, etc. You will be providing people with incredible bang for the buck.

When you post pics of the finished 2010 car, show details of the suspension, cage, etc. If you can show it's well designed and safe that should quiet the disparaging remarks.

Good luck.

[Wren]

So you got the late model Honda engines working?

[MiniFormulaIndy]

Well thank you very much. With the inboard, pushrod suspension and the cage design, along with the bodywork & wings, I believe as many others do that have seen and sat in the car, that this is truly an entry level F1000 that looks impressive and has the power, adjustability and the ability to be easily homologated into the class and be competitive. Construction, speed & safety with wicked looks were the goal and we hit it. The cost of the 2010 4 wheel independantly suspended, chain drive, 07 CBR1000rr car with body & wings is 16K. And sorry, the little old flatbed trailer has been replaced with an enclosed unit, but that's because it sometimes rains up here in Ohio. If it's light, it handles and you can drive it well enough- there is no reason that it cannot run with other 1000cc cars and I sincerely believe that we just might be on to something.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

Yes, the 07& up Honda engines run perfectly. The thing I like best about Honda is reliablility and heck, I raced Honda bikes for years. I like the Gixxers & the R1's too, but this engine has a different power that suits momentum and we all know how important that is. If your car handles right, you can make any of the liter bike engines run well.

[Bill Bonow]

$16K for a "race ready" car that SCCA will homologate in FB?

[Wren]

Ehh, it's got to feel good to have your car cost less than some people's shocks.

So can you make an '09 Honda run on the stock ECU?

[Ananth K]

I see a picture of the front suspension on the website. Looks very much like a Van Diemen front end.

[Bill Bonow]

Ananth,

See post # 4 above, looks to be a photo of the sports racer version of the FE (and in need of some WD 40 if I might add)

[MiniFormulaIndy]

Oh you're right, that image is of a VD, but the reason for that image is our front ends, are very, very similar to those. That's why that image is on the site. To show inboard pushrods. Not everyone is as educated as the experienced racers on this site. The other questions? Yes this car will homolgate into FB, I have already sent in the forms. Hey, if you've got 16k for shocks, that's awesome. Most guys that want to race these, don't. This car is not all carbon fiber & billet, but it will do what it needs to do and I plan on proving it. As a matter of fact, if you'd like to "dish" on any one aspect, you can PM me or send an email through the site and I will call you personally and you can show me how much more you know about these cars. I'm not claiming to be the "be all end all" of F1000 but I sure as hell want to get people involved for a price that makes sense. 65k+ is simply retarded for a toy that merely gets you trphies. I've got more trophies than I care to keep and they mean nothing. What means something are the experiences and sensations you get when hitting the corner perfectly and selecting the right setup. Not to mention the friendships and memories one aquires during the entire experience.

Hey, if it's all about money and "he with the most wins", then you guys at the top of the hierarchy can stay there and enjoy the slim few that choose to make that the most important. Everyone knows that there are alot of guys with driving ability & low dollars. Don't make this sport too exclusive, you'll find yourselves a bit empty when it's all said and done.

[ghickman]

FormulaIndy
It's one thing to meet the SCCA Homologation.....Just curious if you have done a complete validation of chassis strength using any type of FEA software under the guidance of an engineer? If not I highly recommend it. These cars are very fast and push the limit for safety in space frame construction in my opinion. Take all the forces being generated on the car into account during validation.

Anxious to see what you've come up with.

Regards
Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering
FB #76

[Ananth K]

FormulaIndy
These cars are very fast and push the limit for safety in space frame construction in my opinion.

Gary,

Not to sound argumentative, but what do you base this statement on? I am not sure anyone in F1000 has run a proper crash analysis using non-linear FE code. My understanding is that the FE work being done right now is simple linear stuff which negates/minimizes the need for a properly validated model, or accurately modeling the weldment properties which is obviously critical in a welded spaceframe. Validation, of course, would imply a crash test, which I am also not sure any one has done so far.

[Richard Dziak]

Gary Hickman makes a very good point as to the engineering of the Formual Indy construction. As an owner of an F1000 formula racer I fully endorse the idea of a low priced racing machine, that many average racers who want to drive a formula style car for the enjoyment, not head trips and cheap trophies is a major plus for the class. So I welcome the low priced entry point. The car COULD attract many new entry level drivers into the class, and it appears that is what the guys over at Formula Indy are trying to achieve.

However, and I stress however, these F1000 racing machines, are very powerful cars, and most owners who have spent tens of thousands of dollars realize that the car MUST be constructed with proper engineering, materials and care in the construction. It is hard for me to believe that major engineering studies can be completed tested and built for the end consumer price of $16,000.

While the cost of $16,000 is unbelieveably attractive, is there a sacrifice for quality and safety of these high speed racing machines. There can not be any sacrifices in the build with the idea of attracting revenue and potential profit vs. safety. This car, while a great idea and price, has in my opinion a long way to go with testing and the results need to be revealed to the general public and potential end user.

The constructors of all F1000 cars that are at the upper price limits have completed long engineering designs and studies, and I know they have safety in the build as a number one concern.

Let's see what emerges out of this constructor to see if the results in testing and not just a few laps around a track, provides. If the guys at Formula Indy can build and provide a car that has safety and performance of the upper end priced cars, they will have a break thru that will attract so many racers to this class. Let's see what happens.

I do remember the Yugo, as many others do also. What was a low priced entry into an economy built car, turned out to be a piece of junk and very unsafe to drive or own. That's why they did not last. Looks are one thing, style is one thing, but in the F1000 class, proper engineering and safety standards are much more important IMO than speed potential and perfomance. It's the human life thats in the car that's more important for safety than any other consideration in including revenue and profit.

When an amatuer racer loses his life, it effects us all. We don't want to see that in a cheap designed formula car that might look cool to drive.

Time will tell, as certainly those who have spent allot of time in this class certainly has doubts about meeting the safety standards and overall construction of a $16,000 car vs. and $50,000 car. There has to be a difference somewhere. Let's see what it is.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

Have I/we used sophisticated crash analysis software? No. What we've done is take the experience of 2 awesome gentlemen from the Grand Rapids Michigan area that are now retired racers & car builders. My main design/approval department is a man that built cars for the legendary Gordon Johncock. With his guidance and the experience of myself and a enginerring student, we've assembled a driver compartment that we all believe will keep the driver alive in the event of a serious crash.

If you're afraid of getting injured in racing, you shouldn't be racing. You must have trust in your equipment in order to push the limits of machine and man, and I'll make certain that these cars are trustworthy. I've raced motocross as well as oval tracks and fear isn't in my vocabulary. If one has the guts to hold a 450 wide open off the face of a 140' uphill triple and not fear for his life, then that's the best kind of test driver you can find. Rest assured, I built it and I am not afraid of it keeping me alive if it flips over or if it hits the wall.

I've seen one of my 09 style cars catch a wheel of another car and flip end over end and tear off all 4 wheels. The driver unbuckled and stood up and said "was I upside down?" He's fine, the car is rebuilt and he's back on the track. Our '10 cars are much better built than the last version. At this point, my main concern is being able to keep up with the demand if in fact I can run at least mid pack in a field of high dollar F1000 cars. Keep in mind, these are entry level cars and no machine is without it's mechanical issues. I've read the reports of the F1000 class and with dwindling numbers and mechanical failures on even the most expensive cars, I think we'll be able to hold our own.

I appreciate the concern and welcome the inquiries.

[marshall9]

Maybe a 10K F600 could be next

[blackbmwk1200r]

I'd love to be able to purchase a new entry level $16K FB particularly if the design facilitated an uggrade strategy that allowed the owner to make his car more competitive over time. In fact I'd change some things I'm doing right now and wait if I was convinced that this would become a reality sometime soon.

So, without giving up an trade secrets, can you explain where in the process of design, part and material sourcing, construction, testing, set up, marketing, distribution and after sale support you are able to remove so much cost?

[Wright D]

Gary,

Not to sound argumentative, but what do you base this statement on? I am not sure anyone in F1000 has run a proper crash analysis using non-linear FE code. My understanding is that the FE work being done right now is simple linear stuff which negates/minimizes the need for a properly validated model, or accurately modeling the weldment properties which is obviously critical in a welded spaceframe. Validation, of course, would imply a crash test, which I am also not sure any one has done so far.

I extensively studied the Phoenix chassis for both stiffness and nonlinear impact testing using FEA tools prior to construction. FEA testing race car chassis' was my cap stone project at the University of Arizona. I developed inertial restraints that better simulate how forces are feed into the chassis during an impact, and high deformation cases. The yield strength and rupture strength used in my FEA tests are taken from real world 4130 welded tube data.

The Phoenix was and is continually tested utilizing the latest in FEA and CFD Software to ensure that we offer an extremely safe and competitive car.

[Ananth K]

Dustin,

Its good to know you are using the latest software, but how are you validating your models? Things like element size and mesh quality, not to mention correctly characterizing material properties in areas with significant heat-affected zones are critical once you get into the non-linear domain. In the industry it is standard practice to view results from a non-validated crash model with a heavily critical eye.

[MiniFormulaIndy]

The reason we build cars is so that we don't over complicate things. Have any of you seen a sprint car flying into the catch fence and taking out several other cars in the process? Of course you have. Those short track dirt & asphalt guys build those cars in small shops and garages across the country. Do you think they sent in the design of their chassis to an overly anylitical engineer to "see how it reacts" in a crash?

The real answer is most likely no. Some chassis are "store bought" and have already been tested on track, many are built by the guys that race them and the experience they carry.

Let's keep the cost down and the operations simple. That's the entire premise of our cars.

blackbmwk1200r asked:

So, without giving up an trade secrets, can you explain where in the process of design, part and material sourcing, construction, testing, set up, marketing, distribution and after sale support you are able to remove so much cost?

Costs are kept down in design by countless hours of discussion, drawings, mock-ups and testing. We build it, run it and spin it out a few times, brush it up against the wall and see what it needs to be better. I absolutely could charge for all of that, in the end cost of the car, but I'm obviously not in this to get rich, we do it because it is a challenge and a passion.

Parts & material sourcing? I have 2 machinists that I work with and small operations, give small pricing. I have designed the cars around things that are readily available in everyone's home town.
Construction? Again, if I charged end users what my labor is actually worth, I couldn't offer these at that price. Again, they are a labor of love. I don't want to sell 100 cars in 2-5 years, I'd like to sell 1 or 2 a year over the next 20.

Marketing?? Ahh, you're looking at it. The little web page is just a page. I'm not a "mass producer" I believe that once the car runs against the big dollar cars, they'll sell themselves.
After sale support? If you wreck it, I'll charge you to fix it. If it brakes, I'll explain to you how to fix it or charge you to fix it. Race machines don't come with a warranty.

That's how the base model is so affordable. You can always add dry sumps, Quaife differentials, power commanders, electronic shifters, different wheels, if you want upgrades, this car has plenty of room for you to expand.

Hope that answers the question about "how".